[TSN]: Goals should be worth two points

[maacoshark]

Just eliminate the second assist.

That won't work either. Sometimes the secondary assist is the play the made the goal possible. Ive seen plays that could have had 3 or 4 assists.

 

[TwoPiece]

I'll be honest: when I first saw this I thought it was one last crazy Charles Wang idea to increase scoring by making goals worth 2 points like a field goal in basketball.

 

[Former Referee 68]

what a stupid idea.. if the Assist wasn't there then the goal wouldn't have happened. the goal and the assist are equally important

 

[sabremike]

A field goal is actually the correct technical term for a basket.

 

[TwoPiece]

A field goal is actually the correct technical term for a basket.

Wait... Seriously..?

You're not funny anymore.

 

[sabremike]

Wait... Seriously..?

You're not funny anymore.

You want funny???

What do you do with an elephant with three balls?

Walk him and pitch to the rhino!

 

[TwoPiece]

You want funny???

What do you do with an elephant with three balls?

Walk him and pitch to the rhino!

Somebody help this man.

 

[rintinw]

I'd like to see points leaders by years under this new proposed system. I'm going to sit down sometime soon and calculate this.

Since 2005 lockout

2005-06:
Jagr 177
Ovechkin 158
Thornton 154 (Cheecho 149 )
Heatley 153

2006-07:
Lecavalier 160
Crosby 156
Heatley 155
St. Louis 145

2007-08:
Ovechkin 177
Malkin 153
Iginla 148
Kovalchuk 139

2008-09:
Ovechkin 166
Malkin 148
Parise 139
Crosby 136

2009-10:
Crosby 160
Ovechkin 159
Stamkos 146
H.Sedin 141

2010-11:
Perry 148
D.Sedin 145
Stamkos 136
St. Louis 130

2011-12:
Malkin 159
Stamkos 157
Neal 121
Giroux 121

2012-13:
Ovechkin 88
Stamkos 86
P.Kane 78
St. Louis 77

2013-14:
Crosby 140
Ovechkin 130
Perry 125
Seguin 121

2014-15:
Ovechkin 134
Tavares 124
Benn 122
Stamkos 115

2015-16:
P.Kane 152
Benn 130
Ovechkin 121
Crosby 121

2016-17:
Crosby 133
McDavid 130
Kucherov 125
Marchand 124

2017-18:
McDavid 149
Malkin 140
Kucherov 139
Ovechkin 136

Top players by "points" per game:
Crosby 1.77
Ovechkin 1.72
Malkin 1.66
McDavid 1.64
Kovalchuk 1.56

 

[Midnight Judges]

Under this new system, Gretzky's 92 Goal 212 point season is now a stupidly untouchable 304 point season.

Gretzky's career point totals are now 3751


Anyone else just find this incredibly stupid?

Whatever you proved here has escaped my notice.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Damn Ovi still can't close the gap in PPG with Crosby counting goals twice. MidNight judges probably lost his mind

 

[RageQuit77]

what a stupid idea.. if the Assist wasn't there then the goal wouldn't have happened. the goal and the assist are equally important

Yeah, only problem (that is logically cathegorical and unavoidable) is that if there are no goal, there cannot ever be a pass(es) awarded a glorious one-point worth title "assist".

It doesn't work other way around.

There are 3 different things called "a point" in current system. One of those "points" creates others. In 100% of all case examples. Can you guess which one of those three types of points?

 

[King'sPawn]

Make every goal scored by a team worth three points, and distribute the points based off players involved.

Unassisted goal = goal scorer gets 3 points

One assist = goal scorer gets 2 points and assist gets 1

Two assists = all three players get one point.

And the answer is yes, I'm kidding.

 

[LakeLivin]

No offense intended, but I see a lot of faulty logic being posted. Sure, sometimes it's the secondary assist that "makes the play". But more often than that, a secondary assist can be a low skill, mundane pass where subsequent players make a much bigger contribution to a goal. The way the question was presented, you've got to look at "in general", and in general, when it comes to what contributes to a score, Goal > Primary Assist > Secondary Assist.

My understanding is that the analytics movement has teams paying big bucks for analysts to break down plays in order to differentiate and quantify how much each player actually contributed to a goal. They're able to account for and appropriately quantify the 2nd assist that actually made the play, or a goal where a player with his back turned to the play has a d-man deflect the puck off his butt into the net. Or the player who fires a puck into Cam Ward's skate behind the net and heads up ice as Ward skates into the crease and slides his foot into the goal.

Unfortunately, since that's proprietary stuff that we don't get to see, we're stuck with just Goals, 1st Assists, 2nd Assists, which are combined into Points. If I'm using one stat to quickly compare players, I apply the "in general" principle and would much prefer to see a stat that weights goals more than 1st assists more than 2nd assists as compared to the cruder "Points" that we currently get.

 

[RageQuit77]

Procedure 'High Danger Scoring Change' [Logical structure]

Scenario: Pass chain 1, Pass chain 2, [HD=1/HD=0]

//Pass Chain 1
...Random pass A, Random pass B, Random pass C... [add arbitrarily long chain of passes A to Z+ while Pass Chain 1 ends to 'Shot 1']: Shot 1

Shot 1 => HD=0 (*shot misses the goal*) to Pass Chain 1:

Random pass A, Random pass B, Random pass C... [add arbitrarily long chain of passes A to Z+ while Pass Chain 1 ends to 'Shot 1']: Shot 1 => HD=0

Write stat: "No goal" (*no goal no assists no points scenario*)

END;

//Pass Chain 2
...Random pass A, Random pass B, Random pass C.... [add arbitrarily long chain of passes A to Z+ while Pass Chain 2 ends to 'Shot 2']: Shot 2

Shot 2 => HD=1 (*shot results the goal*) to Pass Chain 2:

Shot 2 => '1 Goal', '1 point'

Assign value '1 assist', '1 point' to Random passes -1 and -2 [in arbitrarily long chain of passes A to Z+ in Pass Chain 2 that ends to Shot 2].

Write stat:
If # random passes in Pass Chain 2 = 0 [case of nul chain of A to Z+/Shot 2], total point value of '1 Goal' = "1 point"
If # random passes in Pass Chain 2 = 1, [case of chain A/Shot 2] total point value of '1 Goal' + '1 assist' = "2 points"
If # random passes in Pass Chain 2 = 2 or >2 [case of chain A, B+/Shot 2] total point value of '1 Goal' + '1 assist' + '1 assist' = "3 points"
Else Write: "Blah blah blah. Impossible scoring condition. Check your logic!"

Repeat until value of '1 Goal' => 2 x '1 assist' -> [nul '1 Goal' nul x 'assist'] while '1 Goal' > '1 assist' or 2x '1 assist' in case of '1 point = 1 Goal, 1 assists.

END.

/

I posted that to the GOAT of GOATs thread accidentally. Sorry.

 

[romba]

Was probably mentioned already but two assists given out per goal is ight, the second one though should be given out at the discretion of the officials/score keeper or something.

 

[Frolov 6'3]

Dont know if this is a good idea but I am saying for years already that assists are overrated.

 

[StatisticsAddict99]

Totally fair based on his one season olaying on a top ten scoring teamagainst easier opposition not being the sole focus of the opposition due to JT like jack, better wingers and scorers around him.

It’s painfully evident you haven’t seen more then two eichel games.

Colour me surprised you think goals are better.

Do You find scheifele better or worse then Laine?

Firstly I don’t think Goals should be worth more than Assists but it’s evident to pretty much everyone they are more valuable and harder to get.

So your opinion is that Goals aren’t more valuable than Assists(1st or 2nd), but the fact a player has less minutes per game makes his points worth less(even though most of the time less usage makes it harder for players to score rather than the assumption of qaulity) and the fact a player is new to the league(which is more impressive).

I honestly don’t believe Barzal is better than Eichel because of the reason of Goalscoring, they are both Elite playmakers(Barzal might have a sleight edge there atm) but the big difference is Goalscoring as Eichel is Elite and Barzal is just a pretty good Goalscorer.

To your last question of Laine and Scheifele I have to say at the moment Scheifele is slightly better as he’s both an Elite playmaker and Goalscorer(today) as a PPG Center, but I not only wouldn’t be surprised, I almost expect Laine to become better going forward because he doesn’t have the minutes and opportunity Scheifele has. If I had to keep one it would be Laine because I do believe he will be better(possibly significantly).

 

[TheDoldrums]

No offense intended, but I see a lot of faulty logic being posted. Sure, sometimes it's the secondary assist that "makes the play". But more often than that, a secondary assist can be a low skill, mundane pass where subsequent players make a much bigger contribution to a goal. The way the question was presented, you've got to look at "in general", and in general, when it comes to what contributes to a score, Goal > Primary Assist > Secondary Assist.

My understanding is that the analytics movement has teams paying big bucks for analysts to break down plays in order to differentiate and quantify how much each player actually contributed to a goal. They're able to account for and appropriately quantify the 2nd assist that actually made the play, or a goal where a player with his back turned to the play has a d-man deflect the puck off his butt into the net. Or the player who fires a puck into Cam Ward's skate behind the net and heads up ice as Ward skates into the crease and slides his foot into the goal.

Unfortunately, since that's proprietary stuff that we don't get to see, we're stuck with just Goals, 1st Assists, 2nd Assists, which are combined into Points. If I'm using one stat to quickly compare players, I apply the "in general" principle and would much prefer to see a stat that weights goals more than 1st assists more than 2nd assists as compared to the cruder "Points" that we currently get.

Good post.

Interestingly enough, one of the first articles I remember reading that questioned the value of secondary assists was by Eric Tulsky

Simplify scoring: drop the pointless secondary assist

He's now the vice president of hockey management and strategy for your Hurricanes.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Stop trying to fix things that arent broken.

My reaction as well

 

[Riddum]

Secondary assists should could as 0.5 points.

 

[dubey]

Every goal should count as 2 goals and every penalty should count as -1 goal

they have lost a lot of credibility since losing 75% of the NHL market

i lol'd at this

 

[Name Nameless]

Actually, when I read this article, I think "How can anyone miss the point that much?"

He said it: "First: While a player can score a goal without an assist, a player cannot earn an assist without a goal. One’s very existence depends upon the other."

Exactly. What does this mean? Let's ignore the secondary assist for now. (I love them btw, they are supposed to be given only for the good, long attacks, even if they seemes to be given out more liberally than before. But that's another thread.)

Imagine a hard-working playmaker setting up his buddy for glorious shots. Virtually empty-netters. Let's make him do this three times. The guy with the finish, however, manages to wiff on it twice, putting in the third. So the suggestion is to let the wiffer get two points for the goal, and the playmaker one for the assist here. "A player cannot earn an assist without a goal" (Implied: the goalscorer is so much better) . But he is not! The playmaker here has to watch his fabulous should-have-been-assists turn into dust twice!

To come out of that match with the stats saying the wiffer is twice as important for the team is IMHO just rubbish.

 

[LakeLivin]

Good post.

Interestingly enough, one of the first articles I remember reading that questioned the value of secondary assists was by Eric Tulsky

Simplify scoring: drop the pointless secondary assist

He's now the vice president of hockey management and strategy for your Hurricanes.

Thanks. Nice to see that my impressions are backed up by Tulsky's analysis.

 

[LakeLivin]

Actually, when I read this article, I think "How can anyone miss the point that much?"

He said it: "First: While a player can score a goal without an assist, a player cannot earn an assist without a goal. One’s very existence depends upon the other."

Exactly. What does this mean? Let's ignore the secondary assist for now. (I love them btw, they are supposed to be given only for the good, long attacks, even if they seemes to be given out more liberally than before. But that's another thread.)

Imagine a hard-working playmaker setting up his buddy for glorious shots. Virtually empty-netters. Let's make him do this three times. The guy with the finish, however, manages to wiff on it twice, putting in the third. So the suggestion is to let the wiffer get two points for the goal, and the playmaker one for the assist here. "A player cannot earn an assist without a goal" (Implied: the goalscorer is so much better) . But he is not! The playmaker here has to watch his fabulous should-have-been-assists turn into dust twice!

To come out of that match with the stats saying the wiffer is twice as important for the team is IMHO just rubbish.

The breakdown in your logic is that instead of addressing the issue "in general", you're using one example to justify a general rule, a rule that even more often errs just as egregiously in the opposite direction. Sure, in your example the contribution of the "playmaker" is being shorted. But consider this counter example: 3 times in a game a player, unmolested, hands off the puck to a teammate at the blueline. Each time the teammate skates through the opposition and scores a goal. Under the current Points system, the player who handed off the puck is credited with being just as important as the goal scorer, and that's just as much rubbish as in your example; the "assisting" player really did nothing.

The problem is that using a single stat to quantify scoring is too crude a method to take into account actual contributions to scoring without adding some qualitative assessment of the different parts that contribute to a goal. Given that limitation, I still hold that it would be more accurate to weight goals more heavily than assists if you're using a single stat to summarize scoring for a player. Sure, sometimes the assist is where the most skill is applied towards a goal. But my observations suggest that more often it's the opposite. And the Tulsky article linked above supports that conclusion as well.

 

[Panthaz89]

And OT should be settled by a goalie fight. Who wants it more? Blocker and stick battle. Finish Him!

oh no we are gonna need Lehner back then