TSN 690 & Other Montreal sports media Thread V

[Captain Mountain]

It shouldn't take courage to post something so obvious. Some people feel it necessary to have heroes and villains in every narrative. If they don't paint Subban as pure and virtuous in thought, word and deed then they feel as though they are somehow legitimizing Bergevin's actions. One doesn't have to mean the other. It is possible to admit that Subban engineered his own ouster and still hate Bergevin/Molson for doing the deed. Subban's actions don't excuse Bergevin's. But for some people the Subban trade is a zero-sum game. Subban must be pure and Bergevin must be dirty and Weber must be the fruit of a poisonous tree. It becomes a purity test for some posters. You say that PK has shortcomings or that Weber is elite and it makes you a Bergevin apologist in the eyes of some.

You can't simultaneously deride people for painting "Subban as pure and virtuous in thought, word and deed" and then suggest that "Subban engineered his own ouster". The idea that Subban engineered his ouster from the organization by making a massive contribution to a local hospital and laying down roots in the community sounds almost conspiratorial.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Perhaps there was nothing written down mandating that players go through the auspices of the club whenever doing public charity work (although I'm sure it's written down now!) the point is that Subban knew, or ought to have known, that making such a move, seemingly out of the blue and with no prior notification to the club by which he was employed, was going to cause a problem from a public relations standpoint if nothing else. It made the Habs look foolish because they were the last to know. Instead of PK telling the Habs what he wanted to do ahead of time, he let them read about it in the papers. If you don't think that equates to a clear provocation on his part, or that PK was just naïve about how these things work then I'm sorry but you're just too far gone to argue with.

The only reason the Habs look foolish is because they made a stink about it. Nobody should care if they knew or not.

And the Habs were doing light PR on it the day of, they weren't getting it from the papers. This is FAR from the only instance where players have done charity work without club involvement. The only difference here is the scale. And the idea that a player should involve their employer only when they spend MORE of their own money is crazy.

 

[417]

I'm certain of Subban not needing to disclose charitable contributions. He may be contractually notified to tell them who he represents (i.e. that he was planning to appear at the hospital and speak in support of it), but the Habs could get into a sticky legal situation if they compelled him to disclose more than that.

Hmm...would need to verify this.

What if a player decides to make a 10M pledge to the KKK, is it cool if he doesn't tell his team about that first?

Is it cool if they find out just when he's being crowned Grand Dragon?

 

[Laurentide]

The only reason the Habs look foolish is because they made a stink about it. Nobody should care if they knew or not.

And the Habs were doing light PR on it the day of, they weren't getting it from the papers. This is FAR from the only instance where players have done charity work without club involvement. The only difference here is the scale. And the idea that a player should involve their employer only when they spend MORE of their own money is crazy.

I certainly didn't care, but I knew right away that the Habs would care and I'm quite sure that Subban knew it as well. Here he was making this humongous pledge to the hospital, and the only thing the media took away from it was the fact that none of Subban's teammates or bosses were there for the announcement and that it appeared as though the Habs front office was completely taken off-guard.

Subban may not have had any contractual obligation to inform his bosses but pretty much everybody knows that not giving them so much as a heads-up beforehand was not without a deeper meaning attached. He was sending the Habs a message that he was going to do things his way. It was their choice whether or not to put up with it but he wasn't going to be told what to do and how to do it by the club. It was a shot across the bow. He was practically daring them to do something about it.

 

[Genesis76]

It's as credible a view as yours. More credible, in fact because my thesis presumes that Subban is not some clueless rube who didn't know that what he was doing would cause a problem. I give him more credit for knowing how things work than you do, apparently.

No you’retrying to portray PK as the villain with a master plan.

Of course PK is extremely smart, at least smarter than MB and his group combined.

He also made some great powerful friends who obviously mentored him into building his brand.

All PK is doing is building his brand just like any other business. Just like any other business he wants to make money.

More importantly PK wants to help others. In a documentary PK is talking about his goal and the main purpose is to help young disadvantaged kids.

So you’re right PK is extremely savy. Hes not your usual dumb hockey player who does what he is told to do all the time. That ovviously could rub some people the wrong way.

And we prefer it that way. Let them suffer from the inside.

 

[Tighthead]

Hmm...would need to verify this.

What if a player decides to make a 10M pledge to the KKK, is it cool if he doesn't tell his team about that first?

Is it cool if they find out just when he's being crowned Grand Dragon?

It’s not cool that he is making the donation but what would prevent him from doing so without notifying the team?

The legal standard is not what is cool.

 

[417]

It’s not cool that he is making the donation but what would prevent him from doing so without notifying the team?

The legal standard is not what is cool.

Point I'm making is there may not be a legal or contractual requirement to disclose this sort of thing to the team ahead of time...

But I think it's just the kind of thing that's done out of common courtesy or 'best-practices'.

I refuse to believe someone as business savvy as Subban didn't know this ahead of time.

Not that it makes it wrong mind you, if that's how he chose to handle it, it's his right.

But I can see how the organization, would take this the wrong way.

 

[Genesis76]

Hmm...would need to verify this.

What if a player decides to make a 10M pledge to the KKK, is it cool if he doesn't tell his team about that first?

Is it cool if they find out just when he's being crowned Grand Dragon?

Grand Dragon? Thats a cool name

 

[Captain Mountain]

Hmm...would need to verify this.

What if a player decides to make a 10M pledge to the KKK, is it cool if he doesn't tell his team about that first?

Is it cool if they find out just when he's being crowned Grand Dragon?

I'd have to check, but I'm fairly certain that the KKK doesn't have a registered charitable foundation like The Montreal Children's Hospital Foundation.

 

[Captain Mountain]

I certainly didn't care, but I knew right away that the Habs would care and I'm quite sure that Subban knew it as well. Here he was making this humongous pledge to the hospital, and the only thing the media took away from it was the fact that none of Subban's teammates or bosses were there for the announcement and that it appeared as though the Habs front office was completely taken off-guard.

Subban may not have had any contractual obligation to inform his bosses but pretty much everybody knows that not giving them so much as a heads-up beforehand was not without a deeper meaning attached. He was sending the Habs a message that he was going to do things his way. It was their choice whether or not to put up with it but he wasn't going to be told what to do and how to do it by the club. It was a shot across the bow. He was practically daring them to do something about it.

Sorry, but this is all crazy. If Subban badly wanted out, he could have just asked to be traded. Like every other player that wants out. Making a massive donation and committing to visiting a hospital in Montreal when its your intention to use said donation as a way to get out is a profoundly stupid way of going about things.

 

[417]

I'd have to check, but I'm fairly certain that the KKK doesn't have a registered charitable foundation like The Montreal Children's Hospital Foundation.

Hyperbole man...

 

[Tighthead]

I’m sure the Habs knew that PK had a foundation in place and was generally controlling his own branding etc.

I’m sure that PK knew that the Habs like a measure of control in these matters, and in some way it was him asserting his independence. It’s a smart idea for players to be as independent as possible in my opinion.

I don’t think the team liked the timing of the move on the evening of the captaincy announcement.

I have no doubt that Pk knew he was ruffling feathers but it was not an orchestrated maneuver to get him traded. Too many moving parts. I wouldn’t be surprised if he and his camp knew MB would possibly deal him before the NTC kicked in. He was exactly embraced by the regime.

 

[sandviper]

I am pretty sure it's been documented somewhere but it wasn't that the Habs' brass didn't know about the PK donation. They knew about it but I believe they wanted PK to make the pledge though their foundation, in which PK responded no. I'm not saying if this is wrong or right, but if I were Molson, I'd probably be grinding my teeth if this was how it went down.

As for PK wanting a trade... this guy would have fell on a sword for the jersey. I don't think he disrespected the franchise by wanting to do this pledge on his own, but no question to me he loved the city and the team.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Hyperbole man...

That was obvious.

 

[Laurentide]

Sorry, but this is all crazy. If Subban badly wanted out, he could have just asked to be traded. Like every other player that wants out. Making a massive donation and committing to visiting a hospital in Montreal when its your intention to use said donation as a way to get out is a profoundly stupid way of going about things.

Subban didn't necessarily "badly" want out, but he wasn't going to stay under just any circumstances either. He was fine with remaining a Hab but he was only going to do so on his own terms and the hospital incident was his way of letting the club know that sometimes he was going to pursue his own agenda, an agenda that didn't necessarily involve the club, and he was going to do this pretty much whenever he felt like it. He did not seek nor would he seek their prior approval for every public thing he was planning to do. He had his own brand to market, a brand that did not rely on his affiliation with the Habs to be legitimized.

The Habs brass, of course, could not abide this because for them it's all about who has control. They didn't like PK promoting his own brand independent of the club any more than they liked it over 50 years ago when Dickie Moore started running his own business during the off-season. "Thou shalt have no other gods before the CH" Players who do not genuflect at that altar shall be dealt with.

 

[417]

I’m sure the Habs knew that PK had a foundation in place and was generally controlling his own branding etc.

I’m sure that PK knew that the Habs like a measure of control in these matters, and in some way it was him asserting his independence. It’s a smart idea for players to be as independent as possible in my opinion.

I don’t think the team liked the timing of the move on the evening of the captaincy announcement.

I have no doubt that Pk knew he was ruffling feathers but it was not an orchestrated maneuver to get him traded. Too many moving parts. I wouldn’t be surprised if he and his camp knew MB would possibly deal him before the NTC kicked in. He was exactly embraced by the regime.

Either way...can we all agree that this probably added alot of friction between the team/organization and the player?

I personally don't feel he had to involve the team in this, as in, make them part of the donation.

But I do feel he should have given them proper notice, as to not look like idiots (insert joke) when they'd be asked about it.

 

[Laurentide]

I’m sure the Habs knew that PK had a foundation in place and was generally controlling his own branding etc.

I’m sure that PK knew that the Habs like a measure of control in these matters, and in some way it was him asserting his independence. It’s a smart idea for players to be as independent as possible in my opinion.

I don’t think the team liked the timing of the move on the evening of the captaincy announcement.

I have no doubt that Pk knew he was ruffling feathers but it was not an orchestrated maneuver to get him traded. Too many moving parts. I wouldn’t be surprised if he and his camp knew MB would possibly deal him before the NTC kicked in. He was exactly embraced by the regime.

The Habs like "a measure of control"? Ha! The Habs settle for nothing less than total control.

I do agree that it's a good thing for players to be as independent as possible given that they rarely go through an entire career playing for one franchise and because, let's face it, management doesn't really give a toss about them when all is said and done.

And certainly PK knew that he was ruffling feathers. That was the purpose of the exercise. Not so much trying to orchestrate a trade but merely trying to change the nature of his professional relationship with management. He made it plain that he wasn't going to be "managed" or "controlled" by them. He gave them the choice as to whether or not they could live with that decision. He was basically telling Molson and Bergevin "You can choose to keep me as one of your players or not. But if I'm staying I'm doing things my way. It's up to you."

 

[Captain Mountain]

Subban didn't necessarily "badly" want out, but he wasn't going to stay under just any circumstances either. He was fine with remaining a Hab but he was only going to do so on his own terms and the hospital incident was his way of letting the club know that sometimes he was going to pursue his own agenda, an agenda that didn't necessarily involve the club, and he was going to do this pretty much whenever he felt like it. He did not seek nor would he seek their prior approval for every public thing he was planning to do. He had his own brand to market, a brand that did not rely on his affiliation with the Habs to be legitimized.

The Habs brass, of course, could not abide this because for them it's all about who has control. They didn't like PK promoting his own brand independent of the club any more than they liked it over 50 years ago when Dickie Moore started running his own business during the off-season. "Thou shalt have no other gods before the CH" Players who do not genuflect at that altar shall be dealt with.

Wait, now you're driving both Subban and the organization to crazy extremes now. Subban has always wanted to develop his own brand and the Habs organization has had issues with individuals. But Subban can and has been a team player and he's done stuff with both the Habs and the Preds. And the organization lets guys like Gallagher do their own thing when it comes to charity stuff.

 

[Electricity]

I am pretty sure it's been documented somewhere but it wasn't that the Habs' brass didn't know about the PK donation. They knew about it but I believe they wanted PK to make the pledge though their foundation, in which PK responded no. I'm not saying if this is wrong or right, but if I were Molson, I'd probably be grinding my teeth if this was how it went down.

As for PK wanting a trade... this guy would have fell on a sword for the jersey. I don't think he disrespected the franchise by wanting to do this pledge on his own, but no question to me he loved the city and the team.

See, that's not the Habs' money. They were wanting to cash in on the back of P.K., if true.

 

[Laurentide]

Wait, now you're driving both Subban and the organization to crazy extremes now. Subban has always wanted to develop his own brand and the Habs organization has had issues with individuals. But Subban can and has been a team player and he's done stuff with both the Habs and the Preds. And the organization lets guys like Gallagher do their own thing when it comes to charity stuff.

I agree and I never said that Subban was unwilling to do things (charity and otherwise) under the auspices of the team in addition to his own side projects. He is a team player and he's also independent. Nothing wrong with that in my view, but I am quite sure that the Habs brass don't agree. They are too old school to accept such an arrangement. They need to be in control at all times. They only want players who do what they're told, when they're told and how they're told. That's what they mean when they trot out buzzwords like "character" and "attitude". They demand obedience. Bergevin expects his employees to bow their heads when he walks by. In their eyes, management is royalty and everyone else is a peasant who should be grateful for whatever his lords and masters deign to give him. In the end, they punished Subban (and Habs fans, by extension) for not showing management enough deference. He didn't sufficiently bow and scrape to their liking so they cast him out. They prefer guys like Pacioretty, who show the proper degree of gratitude and who don't make waves.

Forget the "No Excuses!" sign in the dressing room. They should just hang an oversized photo of Bergevin with the caption "OBEY" underneath.

 

[Laurentide]

See, that's not the Habs' money. They were wanting to cash in on the back of P.K., if true.

Yes, because they foolishly believe that PK owed his fame to them and not to his own playing ability and personality.

 

[groovejuice]

It's as credible a view as yours. More credible, in fact because my thesis presumes that Subban is not some clueless rube who didn't know that what he was doing would cause a problem. I give him more credit for knowing how things work than you do, apparently.

I think anyone who believes that PK wasn't consulting with accountants and lawyers is being naive. They would have considered taxation, contract obligations, and a litany of details that likely wouldn't occur to the average poster here.

One thing PK never did was to lash out at or disparage anyone on the team, even those who were obtusely critical of him in the media.

His foundation should have been a non-issue to the team, except for the positive press they received by virtue of proximity.

 

[groovejuice]

Hmm...would need to verify this.

What if a player decides to make a 10M pledge to the KKK, is it cool if he doesn't tell his team about that first?

Is it cool if they find out just when he's being crowned Grand Dragon?

That's the most disingenuous post you've ever made. It's well beyond bizarre.

 

[Electricity]

Yes, because they foolishly believe that PK owed his fame to them and not to his own playing ability and personality.

He doesn't owe anything to anybody, anymore than Sidney Crosby does.

 

[Laurentide]

I think anyone who believes that PK wasn't consulting with accountants and lawyers is being naive. They would have considered taxation, contract obligations, and a litany of details that likely wouldn't occur to the average poster here.

One thing PK never did was to lash out at or disparage anyone on the team, even those who were obtusely critical of him in the media.

His foundation should have been a non-issue to the team, except for the positive press they received by virtue of proximity.

Again, the Habs could not abide the fact that they did not have complete control over the message and the messenger. Optics is always the more important thing to them. They will sacrifice just about anything in order to save face.