Trottier vs. Crosby

[Big Phil]

Trottier was an excellent all around player but I feel he gets too much nostalgia love here. Why are people ignoring that his production was heavily reliant on the top right wing and the top offensive defenseman of that era? Crosby is an art ross caliber forward regardless of who he plays for and he won an art ross when he was 19. In 1977 trottier barely scored 70, then bossy comes along and his offense boosts. In 1980, potvin gets injured and trottier's offense tanks by 20 points, take bossy off his right wing and he would have scored even less. Trottier will probably have the better career, but crosby is better. He was held in a much higher regard as a prospect than trottier could ever dream of and his first two years were way better.

To be fair, Trottier had a 95 point rookie campaign in 1976. Yes Potvin was there, but Bossy wasn't even drafted yet. The man could score. In 1978 he had 123 points only bested by Lafleur and the rookie Bossy had 91. In 1979 134 to Bossy's 126. Bossy's didn't outscore Trottier until his 3rd season. I've said it on the Esposito thread that you can't be classified as a leech if you are outpointing the player you are supposedly "leeching" from. Bossy and Trots were both all-time greats. When Potvin missed some time in 1979-'80 both of their point totals dropped a bit not just Trottier's. You're going to get that because post 1988 when Gretzky lost his Oiler teammates his totals dropped to his lofty standards too. It is expected to an extent.

Somehow, I don't think it's a simple matter of choosing, particularly when your goalie and defense are putting on arguably the worst performance in NHL playoff history.

People conveniently forget this, but when Crosby got into the melee vs. Philly last year, his team was down 2-0 in the series and 3-1 in the 3rd game, and had frittered away its 3rd opening goal in a row. The team was saying all the right things but playing with no fire.

They needed a spark, and after Crosby got into it with Giroux, the team fared much better. That is not an opinion, that is an objective reality. But Philly ended up winning the series anyway, so all that's remembered is that Crosby got mad and the Pens lost.

I don't know, I watched both of those years always cheering for Pittsburgh and hating both teams they lost to. I never thought Crosby played his best and always felt he should have just left the yapping to a minimum. It almost got in his head and these are two hostile visiting rinks as well. You have to remember too, Pittsburgh lost that game you are talking about. They went down to an impossible 3-0 in the series and that pretty much cooked them. I am just saying, he should have let his play do the talking, he gets sucked into these verbal battles way too easily and the opponents know it.

When has Crosby ever tried to fight someone he was outmatched against? Because I can't remember a single instance

I never said he did, I just said he wouldn't have fared well against those all-time greats in a fight and they were more inclined to be able to deal with an issue on their own. Crosby isn't those players from the intimidation standpoint.

 

[canucks4ever]

To be fair, Trottier had a 95 point rookie campaign in 1976. Yes Potvin was there, but Bossy wasn't even drafted yet. The man could score. In 1978 he had 123 points only bested by Lafleur and the rookie Bossy had 91. In 1979 134 to Bossy's 126. Bossy's didn't outscore Trottier until his 3rd season. I've said it on the Esposito thread that you can't be classified as a leech if you are outpointing the player you are supposedly "leeching" from. Bossy and Trots were both all-time greats. When Potvin missed some time in 1979-'80 both of their point totals dropped a bit not just Trottier's. You're going to get that because post 1988 when Gretzky lost his Oiler teammates his totals dropped to his lofty standards too. It is expected to an extent.



I don't know, I watched both of those years always cheering for Pittsburgh and hating both teams they lost to. I never thought Crosby played his best and always felt he should have just left the yapping to a minimum. It almost got in his head and these are two hostile visiting rinks as well. You have to remember too, Pittsburgh lost that game you are talking about. They went down to an impossible 3-0 in the series and that pretty much cooked them. I am just saying, he should have let his play do the talking, he gets sucked into these verbal battles way too easily and the opponents know it.



I never said he did, I just said he wouldn't have fared well against those all-time greats in a fight and they were more inclined to be able to deal with an issue on their own. Crosby isn't those players from the intimidation standpoint.

I've never called trottier a "leetch", but having bossy and potvin boosted him and he even says in his legends of hockey video that he had more success because of bossy. Trottier was good, but offensively he really isn't in crosby's class. If crosby spent his prime years with ovechkin on his wing he would get bashed for it. Trottier just didnt enter the nhl the way Eric Lindros and Sidney Crosby did, they entered the league as Gods, trottier entered the league as a virtual unknown. Trottier has the better career but he wont get my vote for better player, and he definitely didnt get scotty bowman's vote, lol.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Trottier just didnt enter the nhl the way Eric Lindros and Sidney Crosby did, they entered the league as Gods, trottier entered the league as a virtual unknown.

Eric Lindros was NEVER a God. In no way shape or form. Now, if you want to say Lindros and Crosby entered the league with the most hype that's fine, but I think around here consider substance and accomplishments to be a far better guage of a player than a bunch of superficial hype.

 

[canucks4ever]

Eric Lindros was NEVER a God. In no way shape or form. Now, if you want to say Lindros and Crosby entered the league with the most hype that's fine, but I think around here consider substance and accomplishments to be a far better guage of a player than a bunch of superficial hype.

They may have entered with hype, but trottier entered with 2 all time greats. Lindros and Crosby are easier to criticize because all of the attention was on them, while Trottier had 2 teammates that were arguably better than him.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

They may have entered with hype, but trottier entered with 2 all time greats. Lindros and Crosby are easier to criticize because all of the attention was on them, while Trottier had 2 teammates that were arguably better than him.

During the early 1980s it wasn't Bossy or Potvin that hockey pundits were claiming was better than Gretzky. It was Trottier. No one was talking at that time that either Bossy or Potvin were better than Trottier.

 

[jkrx]

Trottier just didnt enter the nhl the way Eric Lindros and Sidney Crosby did, they entered the league as Gods, trottier entered the league as a virtual unknown.

What does that have to do with anything? Alexandre Daigle and Brian Lawton were extremely hyped before entering NHL are they better than Trottier too?

Trottier entered the league as virtual unknown? Plenty of people looked at him a great prospect, he wasn't hyped up like Crosby but then again we didnt have internet back then either. He won the Calder in his first year, suffered a sophmore jinx and led the league once in points and twice with assists, has one hart and one conn smythe. How is that worse than Crosbys five years?

What skill is it that makes Crosby better?

 

[canucks4ever]

What does that have to do with anything? Alexandre Daigle and Brian Lawton were extremely hyped before entering NHL are they better than Trottier too?

Trottier entered the league as virtual unknown? Plenty of people looked at him a great prospect, he wasn't hyped up like Crosby but then again we didnt have internet back then either. He won the Calder in his first year, suffered a sophmore jinx and led the league once in points and twice with assists, has one hart and one conn smythe. How is that worse than Crosbys five years?

What skill is it that makes Crosby better?

Well for one, hes much faster, better skater, i say crosby had the better slapshot, superior vision. I have no hesitation is saying crosby is more impressive on film.

This is a moot point anyways, if anyone here is starting a team from scratch. No one would actually pick trottier over sid, with sid you know your getting a art ross caliber forward. Trottier in todays era would be a 75-80 point player without bossy/potvin. He isnt in the jagr/crosby class for offense and he never will be.

 

[canucks4ever]

I'm pretty sure he knows all about Crosby's skill set. However if you're taking the position that Trottier's "one of those unskilled '80s cavemen" who's blown away by the evolution of the hockey player, well then there's a sticky at the top of the History Section that you need to read. There's one specific thread for those kind of arguments and you need to take them there.

He asked me which areas in skill crosby is better at and I answered it. I never called trottier 'unskilled', these are just words that your using, nice way to put words in my mouth. Do you think trottier had an elite slap shot? Did he have better vision? Superior speed and skating ability?

 

[jkrx]

He asked me which areas in skill crosby is better at and I answered it. I never called trottier 'unskilled', these are just words that your using, nice way to put words in my mouth. Do you think trottier had an elite slap shot? Did he have better vision? Superior speed and skating ability?

He definitly had better vision than Crosby. Trottier is one of the best playmaker to ever graze the game. His all-around game is ahead of Crosbys. Trottier were grittier, meaner and could take a hit. Durable player who tends to be underrated because he played with Bossy. Although you havent presented any proof that Bossy boosted his numbers.

 

[canucks4ever]

He definitly had better vision than Crosby. Trottier is one of the best playmaker to ever graze the game. His all-around game is ahead of Crosbys. Trottier were grittier, meaner and could take a hit. Durable player who tends to be underrated because he played with Bossy. Although you havent presented any proof that Bossy boosted his numbers.

Crosby is easily a better playmaker than Trottier, yeah i'll take your opinion with a grain of salt. I dont know, trottier's lackluster sophmore season and the common sense logic of passing to bossy instead of an average winger kind of proves, not to mention trottier's offense becoming that of a checker/grinder once bossy retires. Also Trottier admitting in his own legends of hockey bio that he had more success and became a better player because of mike bossy. Crosby even at an older age will never have his offense decline the way trottier's did,

 

[jkrx]

Crosby is easily a better playmaker than Trottier, yeah i'll take your opinion with a grain of salt. I dont know, trottier's lackluster sophmore season and the common sense logic of passing to bossy instead of an average winger kind of proves, not to mention trottier's offense becoming that of a checker/grinder once bossy retires. Also Trottier admitting in his own legends of hockey bio that he had more success and became a better player because of mike bossy. Crosby even at an older age will never have his offense decline the way trottier's did,

You still havent provided the actual proof that it is so, have you? What do you expect Trottier to say? "Bossy didnt help me at all, I made his career"?

"There aren't any little signals. The thing between us is the communication we have. We're not afraid to tell each other that we should have done this, or we should have done that. As much as Bryan helps me, I've helped him."

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Crosby even at an older age will never have his offense decline the way trottier's did,

Crosby has his offense decline to 0 every time he winds up in a hospital (MOD)

 

[canucks4ever]

You still havent provided the actual proof that it is so, have you? What do you expect Trottier to say? "Bossy didnt help me at all, I made his career"?

His sophmore season isnt proof? His numbers after bossy retiring isnt proof? Or how about the fact that once denis potvin got injured, trottier's offense dropped by 30 points? Why do I have to show proof anyways, trottier finished top 5 in scoring a grand total of 3 times. He needed the best right winger and best offensive defenseman with him to accomplish this. If Crosby didnt miss games in 2008 and 2011, he would have had 5 top 3 scoring finishes. Crosby is easily the better offensive player.

Or how about the fact that in 1985, trottier gets injured and moved to the second line. Bossy plays with tonelli and sutter, both of them have career high 100+ point seasons. I guess tonelli and sutter always had it in them to be 100 point scorers. Brent Sutter put up identical numbers to what Trottier was producing with Bossy and your telling me I have no proof, lol.

 

[thom]

I'm not picking Trottier orCrosby but saying trottier had 7 100 pts seasons yes most were in the 1980's but boy he could pass.Now look at Lafleur he had no centerman with 100 pts season with the exception of Peter Maholich for 1 season.Lemaire was a very good player but Trootier did a lot for Islanders.My 3 Islanders are potvin 2.Bossy.3rd Trottier.But you can make an arguement that Trotier was the mvp of the Islanders.

 

[jkrx]

His sophmore season isnt proof? His numbers after bossy retiring isnt proof? Or how about the fact that once denis potvin got injured, trottier's offense dropped by 30 points? Why do I have to show proof anyways, trottier finished top 5 in scoring a grand total of 3 times. He needed the best right winger and best offensive defenseman with him to accomplish this. If Crosby didnt miss games in 2008 and 2011, he would have had 5 top 3 scoring finishes. Crosby is easily the better offensive player.

Or how about the fact that in 1985, trottier gets injured and moved to the second line. Bossy plays with tonelli and sutter, both of them have career high 100+ point seasons. I guess tonelli and sutter always had it in them to be 100 point scorers.

Tonellis 100 pts season were 7 pts better than his personal best. Thats not really a meaningful boost. Sutter benefitted from playing with both of them.

Trottiers offense started to decline before Bossy retired by the way so the burden of proof still falls on you.

Trottiers drop in production is actually pretty common for a player like him who plays physical and makes way for his teammates. He steamrolled defensemen, dragged players with him to get Bossy free. He took the punishment so that Bossy could score. What you are saying is almost like saying "Gretzky had his stats boosted by Kurri".

You are basically putting all the credit to his teammates but with out any real facts just circumstantial evidence.

 

[canucks4ever]

Tonellis 100 pts season were 7 pts better than his personal best. Thats not really a meaningful boost. Sutter benefitted from playing with both of them.

Trottiers offense started to decline before Bossy retired by the way so the burden of proof still falls on you.

Trottiers drop in production is actually pretty common for a player like him who plays physical and makes way for his teammates. He steamrolled defensemen, dragged players with him to get Bossy free. He took the punishment so that Bossy could score. What you are saying is almost like saying "Gretzky had his stats boosted by Kurri".

You are basically putting all the credit to his teammates but with out any real facts just circumstantial evidence.

No the fact he was replaced at center by sutter and sutter scored at a 1.45 ppg pace is more than enough proof that bossy boosted him, so is the mediocre 1977 season. His dropoff in 1980 also shows that potvin/bossy helped boost him and when one of them got injured, his totals tanked. At the end of the day, I dont really need to continue this conversation. Crosby is a franchise player, he can score over 100 points if I put him on the worst team in the league. You can take trottier, i really dont care, I would take crosby over him any day of the week.

I am supposed to believe that the New York Islanders had 3 individual talents that were all superior to Crosby, not that playing with one another made them better than the really were. Sure believe what you want, (MOD)

 

[jkrx]

No the fact he was replaced at center by sutter and sutter scored at a 1.45 ppg pace is more than enough proof that bossy boosted him, so is the mediocre 1977 season. His dropoff in 1980 also shows that potvin/bossy helped boost him and when one of them got injured, his totals tanked. At the end of the day, I dont really need to continue this conversation. Crosby is a franchise player, he can score over 100 points if I put him on the worst team in the league. You can take trottier, i really dont care, I would take crosby over him any day of the week.

I am supposed to believe that the New York Islanders had 3 individual talents that were all superior to Crosby, not that playing with one another made them better than the really were. Sure believe what you want.

In '77 Potvin played the full season and Trottier were still second best in points just as the season before. Now provide us with the with and without stats from Trottiers prime showing how Bossy boosted his stats.

Crosby is a franchise player thats not what we are talking about. Him scoring 100 points on the worst team in the league is really a moot point. Pens problems that season were more about defense than offense, not that their offense were great but it was pretty average.

Edit: When push comes to shove, Trottier were a guy who was advocated by people to be better than Gretzky (not that I agree with that). He was the epitome of a complete player. You know, someone that is more than raw stats. Crosby cant match his physique, defense, vision, positioning, grit or puck control.

 

[boredmale]

Trotter helped the Penguins win 2 cups, Crosby has only won 1.

/end of discussion

 

[canucks4ever]

In '77 Potvin played the full season and Trottier were still second best in points just as the season before. Now provide us with the with and without stats from Trottiers prime showing how Bossy boosted his stats.

Crosby is a franchise player thats not what we are talking about. Him scoring 100 points on the worst team in the league is really a moot point. Pens problems that season were more about defense than offense, not that their offense were great but it was pretty average.

Edit: When push comes to shove, Trottier were a guy who was advocated by people to be better than Gretzky (not that I agree with that). He was the epitome of a complete player. You know, someone that is more than raw stats. Crosby cant match his physique, defense, vision, positioning, grit or puck control.

Well its really hard to show that considering they played on the same line. Trottier's sophmore year was well below crosbys standards. Either way Crosby is the better talent. Which seasons do u want me to show the proof? The year his point totals dropped by 30 points when Potvin got injured. Or the years following, when Bossy outscored him every year?

Crosby doesnt match his vision, is this a joke. Thats why he blows him away based on adjusted stats because he doesnt see the ice the way trottier does. Regardless, whenever you bring up trottier`s success, you will ALWAYS have to mention bossy and potvin with him. He didnt accomplish anything without those two. Trottier really isnt a longevity king either, top 10 in scoring 6 times in a 19 year career.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Trotter helped the Penguins win 2 cups, Crosby has only won 1.

/end of discussion

I guess you'd rank Bob Errey over Crosby too

 

[canucks4ever]

By the way, you say Crosby cant match his defense. Thats nice, im going to assume you think he was the exact same defensive player his whole career. You say I dont know anything about hockey history yet your the one who foolishly thinks Trottier`s offensive and defensive peaks occured at the same time. There have been many islanders posters in the past that stated Potvin and Trottier in the late 1970`s were NOT dominant defensive players. They later became dominant two way players, but the way you talk about Trottier, you probably think he was selke caliber in 1978 and 1979, while Islanders fan from the past have stated the exact opposite.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I guess you'd rank Bob Errey over Crosby too

I know that wasn't necessary.....I was just getting a little irritated mea culpa

 

[jkrx]

Well its really hard to show that considering they played on the same line. Trottier's sophmore year was well below crosbys standards. Either way Crosby is the better talent. Which seasons do u want me to show the proof? The year his point totals dropped by 30 points when Potvin got injured. Or the years following, when Bossy outscored him every year?

No it isnt hard, you just have to do some actual research instead of basically just stating the same thing over and over again.

When Potvin was injured Bossys production dropped by 34 pts. Is he also a production of Denis? That same season Trottier led Isles in point scoring. Now how does that work for your theory?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Eric Lindros was NEVER a God. In no way shape or form. Now, if you want to say Lindros and Crosby entered the league with the most hype that's fine, but I think around here consider substance and accomplishments to be a far better guage of a player than a bunch of superficial hype.

Lindros was more than just hype. He was a monster of a man at 18. He played for Canada in the Olympics in 1992 as an 18 year-old. Canada went to the finals and Lindros tied Selanne for 4th in scoring for the tourney.

As a rookie he was the bowling ball and veteran NHL players were the pins. 41 goals in just 61 games. Two years later at 21 he wins the Hart trophy.

 

[jkrx]

Lindros was more than just hype. He was a monster of a man at 18. He played for Canada in the Olympics in 1992 as an 18 year-old. Canada went to the finals and Lindros tied Selanne for 4th in scoring for the tourney.

As a rookie he was the bowling ball and veteran NHL players were the pins. 41 goals in just 61 games. Two years later at 21 he wins the Hart trophy.

Too bad he lacked in the head area. He could have been a legend.