Trottier vs. Crosby

[Rob Scuderi]

Except of course playing with Malkin on the PP, which is where 40% of his points come from.

I thought we were talking about the list of even-strength linemates Crosby supposedly didn't carry.

Is 40% anything out of the ordinary? I have no idea what's typical so I'm just trying to understand here.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Sid makes those around him better, more than anyone else in the NHL. Tavares is the next best in my opinion.



Omark and Schremp would dazzle people on shootouts and in practice.

I'm not sure what "skilled" exactly means. I mean, Alex Ovechkin is more "skilled" than Mike Bossy but not the better player in terms of effectiveness.

Crosby is a better skater, stickhandler more exciting player than Trottier was, not debating that. But in his prime, Trottier wasn't exactly Jason Allison. He could skate deceptively well, was a GREAT passer and he scored a lot of goals too.

Crosby would also beat Gretzky in a foot race and probably out stickhandle him (yes, some will disagree with this because 99 was deceptively quick as well), he'd have a harder shot too - but that's not how I'd evaluate the two.

Crosby IS the best player in the NHL, offensively or otherwise. Not debating that at all. But Trottier, at HIS PRIME, was arguably better than GRETZKY in some people's eyes. (Not mine) There's no amount of YouTube highlights and footage to give that kind of perspective which is pretty valid, whether you agree or not. This was at its peak after the sweep of the Oilers in '83, when 99 was seen as a fringe compiler who couldn't lead or win important games. Well, hindsight now tells us otherwise.

He 's a much much better singer and guitar player also.

 

[Big Phil]

I've never called trottier a "leetch", but having bossy and potvin boosted him and he even says in his legends of hockey video that he had more success because of bossy. Trottier was good, but offensively he really isn't in crosby's class. If crosby spent his prime years with ovechkin on his wing he would get bashed for it. Trottier just didnt enter the nhl the way Eric Lindros and Sidney Crosby did, they entered the league as Gods, trottier entered the league as a virtual unknown. Trottier has the better career but he wont get my vote for better player, and he definitely didnt get scotty bowman's vote, lol.

They may have entered with hype, but trottier entered with 2 all time greats. Lindros and Crosby are easier to criticize because all of the attention was on them, while Trottier had 2 teammates that were arguably better than him.

Well, like I said he entered the NHL with Potvin already there. Bossy didn't come for two years. I think we saw enough of Trottier in those two years as a youngster to see he didn't need a whole lot of charity. He had a 95 point season. Then 123 in 1978 when Bossy is a rookie. I mean, I don't think we can give Bossy THAT much credit for that particular season. Bossy didn't even crack 100 points that year. There has to be some love to Trottier there.

I think what makes Trottier at least equal to Crosby at his best in my mind is the all around play. Really, Crosby is fine at this but Trottier excelled even better. His defense does trump Crosby's. His physicality too by a bit. Everyone talks about how well Trottier could hit. That has to count for something. And you have to remember, if we are penalizing Trottier for playing with greats, then what do we make of Malkin? See this is why I don't like this because we have enough footage to see how well a player is on his own without saying he needed linemates. I'll go on the record and say both players were too good to need charity. Those great players help, but it shouldn't take anything away from them.

But Phil, those things don't frustrate him when everything's clicking for him and the Pens.

What bothers Crosby is losing and underperforming. When that happens, he gets angry and looks for an edge elsewhere. That isn't being "taken off his game", because clearly, he didn't have his game to begin with.

I fail to see what the Pens losing the game against the Flyers when Sid fought has to do with anything, too. They were down 3-1 when he decided to fight, and fared better in the series on the whole afterward. And again, as I pointed out, Crosby can't be faulted for not stopping pucks.

Well that's the thing that's bothered me about him so far. No one ever wins when they play frustrated. Mad, maybe but not frustrated. I realize he is a competitor and that is what I love about him but part of hockey is keeping your composure too. The game is 60 minutes long. Look, he just took too many penalties in last year's playoffs. This was a series where no goalie looked good, in fact they looked awful. I hate to say it, and boy do I ever, but Claude Giroux had it figured out more because he just blitzed and went at Fleury and shot a lot. Crosby spent too much time with the nonsense.

 

[jkrx]

Well, like I said he entered the NHL with Potvin already there. Bossy didn't come for two years. I think we saw enough of Trottier in those two years as a youngster to see he didn't need a whole lot of charity. He had a 95 point season. Then 123 in 1978 when Bossy is a rookie. I mean, I don't think we can give Bossy THAT much credit for that particular season. Bossy didn't even crack 100 points that year. There has to be some love to Trottier there.

I think what makes Trottier at least equal to Crosby at his best in my mind is the all around play. Really, Crosby is fine at this but Trottier excelled even better. His defense does trump Crosby's. His physicality too by a bit. Everyone talks about how well Trottier could hit. That has to count for something. And you have to remember, if we are penalizing Trottier for playing with greats, then what do we make of Malkin? See this is why I don't like this because we have enough footage to see how well a player is on his own without saying he needed linemates. I'll go on the record and say both players were too good to need charity. Those great players help, but it shouldn't take anything away from them.

I would say physically, Trottier is miles ahead of Crosby.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I thought we were talking about the list of even-strength linemates Crosby supposedly didn't carry.

Is 40% anything out of the ordinary? I have no idea what's typical so I'm just trying to understand here.

Depends on the player. Gretzky was around 30%, Mario 41%, Jagr and Yzerman about 33%, Sakic 38%.

If you look at the production of these "scrubs", it isn't all that much different than their norm playing with Crosby in his first 5 years.

Like I said though, in Sid's last 63 games, it's different but he has to do that for a few FULL seasons yet before he makes up ground and passes Trots IMO.

 

[Czech Your Math]

These are some post-WHA stars sorted by highest % of career points scored at even strength:

PLAYER | ES%
LeClair | 73%
Lindros | 69%
Trottier | 68%
Jagr | 66%
Kurri | 66%
Iginla | 64%
H.Sedin | 64%
St.Louis | 64%
D.Sedin | 64%
Gretzky | 64%
Stamkos | 64%
Bure | 63%
Thornton | 63%
Tkachuk | 62%
Gilmour | 62%
Sundin | 62%
Ovechkin | 62%
Turgeon | 62%
Malkin | 62%
Oates | 62%
Messier | 62%
Yzerman | 61%
Recchi | 61%
Modano | 61%
Fedorov | 61%
Kovalchuk | 60%
Forsberg | 60%
Brett Hull | 59%
Crosby | 59%
Selanne | 59%
Sakic | 59%
Kariya | 58%
Hawerchuk | 58%
Francis | 58%
Lemieux | 55%

Crosby's definitely been on the low side, which means he scored a higher proportion of his points on PP/SH than your average star. That's especially true until the past two (partial) seasons, as he scored 57% at ES in his first 5 seasons. Most players tend to score a higher % of their points on PP in their last few years, which brings down their career % at ES. Also, there were fewer PPs in the early mid-80s, so players like Trottier, Gretzky, Kurri should have a slightly higher % of points at ES.

 

[redbull]

Crosby's definitely been on the low side, which means he scored a higher proportion of his points on PP/SH than your average star. That's especially true until the past two (partial) seasons, as he scored 57% at ES in his first 5 seasons. Most players tend to score a higher % of their points on PP in their last few years, which brings down their career % at ES. Also, there were fewer PPs in the early mid-80s, so players like Trottier, Gretzky, Kurri should have a slightly higher % of points at ES.

I assume short-handed is also excluded and 4on4 is included - correct? Gretzky was especially deadly 4on4 (before the league changed the rule) but also pretty impressive when short a man.

This is interesting but I wouldn't read too much into it. In gretzky's case, 64% of almost 2000 pts is a lot more than LeClair's 73%. Still interesting though.

 

[Czech Your Math]

I assume short-handed is also excluded and 4on4 is included - correct? Gretzky was especially deadly 4on4 (before the league changed the rule) but also pretty impressive when short a man.

This is interesting but I wouldn't read too much into it. In gretzky's case, 64% of almost 2000 pts is a lot more than LeClair's 73%. Still interesting though.

I would guess 4 on 4 is ES, but not 100% certain.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I would guess 4 on 4 is ES, but not 100% certain.

Yes, 4 on 4 is (and was) considered even strength.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I would say physically, Trottier is miles ahead of Crosby.

Yeah, that is one area that Trottier is without argument way ahead.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Toss up really.

Both great players.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Toss up really.

Both great players.

Did you seriously bump a 9 year dead thread to say something of zero value?

 

[bobholly39]

Toss up really.

Both great players.

In 2012, sure.
In 2021 - lol, no

 

[BobbyAwe]

An anecdote which may have relevance to this comparison was when, in the early 80's, Gordie Howe said in an interview that he would actually pick Trottier over Gretzky because Trottier "did more things for the team". IOW, he checked and he hit. Those qualities can be somewhat intangible stat-wise. Gretzky scored a lot more points than Trottier but Trottier PREVENTED the other team from scoring more points than Gretzky did.

In a later interview Howe said that Gretzky was obviously the GOAT but I think that comment was in the context of who is the most talented, not necessarily who you would pick first for your team.

 

[The Macho King]

An anecdote which may have relevance to this comparison was when, in the early 80's, Gordie Howe said in an interview that he would actually pick Trottier over Gretzky because Trottier "did more things for the team". IOW, he checked and he hit. Those qualities can be somewhat intangible stat-wise. Gretzky scored a lot more points than Trottier but Trottier PREVENTED the other team from scoring more points than Gretzky did.

In a later interview Howe said that Gretzky was obviously the GOAT but I think that comment was in the context of who is the most talented, not necessarily who you would pick first for your team.

I mean - in the early 80s Trottier was winning Cups while Gretzky was winning Art Ross trophies. Narrative obviously had to change once he started collecting rings.

 

[daver]

An anecdote which may have relevance to this comparison was when, in the early 80's, Gordie Howe said in an interview that he would actually pick Trottier over Gretzky because Trottier "did more things for the team". IOW, he checked and he hit. Those qualities can be somewhat intangible stat-wise. Gretzky scored a lot more points than Trottier but Trottier PREVENTED the other team from scoring more points than Gretzky did.

In a later interview Howe said that Gretzky was obviously the GOAT but I think that comment was in the context of who is the most talented, not necessarily who you would pick first for your team.

Pretty sure Crosby would also be viewed as having those intangible qualities too.

 

[MadLuke]

Top 10 finish
Crosby

2005-06 NHL 102 (6th)

2006-07 NHL 120 (1st)

2008-09 NHL 103 (3rd)

2009-10 NHL 109 (2nd)

2012-13 NHL 56 (3rd)

2013-14 NHL 104 (1st)

2014-15 NHL 84 (3rd)

2015-16 NHL 85 (3rd)

2016-17 NHL 89 (2nd)

2017-18 NHL 89 (10th)

2018-19 NHL 100 (5th)

2020-21 NHL 62 (10th)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Versus

Trottier

1977-78 NHL 123 (2nd)

1978-79 NHL 134 (1st)

1979-80 NHL 104 (6th)

1980-81 NHL 103 (10th)

1981-82 NHL 129 (5th)

1983-84 NHL 111 (8th)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

8 Top 3 with 12 Top 10 for Crosby versus 2 Top 3 and 6 Top 10 for Trottier.

Crosby..: 1-1-2-2-3-3-3-3-5-6-10-10
Trottier: 1-2-5-6-8-10

At similar point of their career (after their age 33 season):

Crosby regular season:

Player	S/C	Pos	GP	G	A	P
Sidney Crosby	L	C	1,039	486	839	1,325
Alex Ovechkin	R	L	1,197	730	590	1,320
Joe Thornton	L	C	1,171	265	843	1,108
Evgeni Malkin	L	C	940	424	680	1,104
Patrick Kane	L	R	1,029	404	684	1,088
Eric Staal	L	C	1,212	430	573	1,003
Anze Kopitar	L	C	1,129	346	654	1,000

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

PPG (500 games or more)

Player	S/C	Pos	GP	P/GP
Sidney Crosby	L	C	1,039	1.28
Evgeni Malkin	L	C	940	1.17
Alex Ovechkin	R	L	1,197	1.1
Nikita Kucherov	L	R	515	1.06
Patrick Kane	L	R	1,029	1.06
Steven Stamkos	R	C	841	1.03
Pavel Datsyuk	L	C	744	1.03

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Playoff:

Player	S/C	Pos	GP	G	A	P
Sidney Crosby	L	C	174	69	122	191
Evgeni Malkin	L	C	170	64	110	174
Alex Ovechkin	R	L	141	71	64	135
Patrick Kane	L	R	136	52	80	132
Nikita Kucherov	L	R	113	44	83	127
David Krejci	R	C	156	42	82	124
Ryan Getzlaf	R	C	125	37	83	120

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Versus Trottier at the same point of is career:

RS:

Player	S/C	Pos	GP	G	A	P
Wayne Gretzky	L	C	847	677	1,302	1,979
Marcel Dionne	R	C	1,039	592	813	1,405
Bryan Trottier	L	C	1,123	500	853	1,353
Bernie Federko	L	C	1,000	369	761	1,130
Mike Bossy	R	R	752	573	553	1,126
Peter Stastny	L	C	749	385	674	1,059
Jari Kurri	R	R	754	474	569	1,043

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

PPG (500 games or more)

Player	S/C	Pos	GP	P/GP
Wayne Gretzky	L	C	847	2.34
Mike Bossy	R	R	752	1.5
Peter Stastny	L	C	749	1.41
Jari Kurri	R	R	754	1.38
Denis Savard	R	C	736	1.38
Marcel Dionne	R	C	1,039	1.35
Steve Yzerman	R	C	514	1.35
Guy Lafleur	R	R	782	1.32
Dale Hawerchuk	L	C	713	1.3
Paul Coffey	L	D	733	1.3
Bernie Nicholls	R	C	634	1.25
Kent Nilsson	L	C	547	1.25
Mark Messier	L	C	798	1.22
Bryan Trottier	L	C	1,123	1.2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Playoff:

Player	S/C	Pos	GP	G	A	P
Wayne Gretzky	L	C	138	89	195	284
Jari Kurri	R	R	146	92	110	202
Mark Messier	L	C	148	76	124	200
Glenn Anderson	L	R	146	75	95	170
Bryan Trottier	L	C	175	64	104	168
Mike Bossy	R	R	129	85	75	160
Denis Potvin	L	D	168	51	100	151
Bobby Smith	L	C	154	55	84	139
Larry Robinson	L	D	185	26	103	129

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Trottier from 21 to 27 or so is arguably a toss up like said above, with all that he bring, but 18-19 and after 27 it is all Crosby by a large landslide it seem. In Trottier fairness, that is not out of phase from the star forward that transitionned from the 70s to the 80s I think and among them is at the top in term of workload-playoff battle.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby and it's not worth a discussion

 

[nowhereman]

Toss up really.

Both great players.

Nine years and you come up with this?

It's not a "toss-up", lmfao. Crosby is a top 5-10 player of all time, while Trottier is probably in the 30s. It's not close and not worth the debate.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Toss up really.

Both great players.

if your goal was to get the staff’s attention, congrats.

 

[The Pale King]

Everyone's acting like this is a slam dunk for Crosby, but what happens when we limit the scope to just their respective Pittsburgh tenures? Suddenly we have a much more interesting question on our hands.

So, who was the better Penguin?

 

[jcs0218]

He 's a much much better singer and guitar player also.

You obviously have never seen Wayne perform:

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

Obviously we can scratch Gretzky off the list as the best player of either era. Looking at what's left over, we have some parallels in Bossy/Ovechkin and Dionne/Thornton, and in both cases I'd say the modern players are probably better overall (unless you believe scoring points is the be-all).

Why would you assume that "modern" players would be better?

 

[tarheelhockey]

Why would you assume that "modern" players would be better?

I wouldn’t assume that. It is my judgment that Ovechkin was a better player than Bossy (for reasons detailed in that same post) and Thornton a comparable (but slightly better rounded) player to Dionne.

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

I wouldn’t assume that. It is my judgment that Ovechkin was a better player than Bossy (for reasons detailed in that same post) and Thornton a comparable (but slightly better rounded) player to Dionne.

I got sucked in by an old thread, but your comment is uneducated.