Trottier vs. Crosby

[tarheelhockey]

Didn't he blindly skate out of a turn and run face first right into a much taller player's shoulder? Isn't this a player who is purported to have amazing "hockey sense"? Maybe he could have found a position by the boards to watch the play develop behind him?

You're right that it was a shoulder, not an elbow.

See the clip below, which is probably the best angle available.



If you pause it at 0:03 when the replay begins, Steckel isn't even in the frame. Crosby, with nobody in front of him simply, turned his head to follow the play, and the big galoot runs right into his face from the blind side. I don't think it was intentional, at least not to the extent of causing injury, but that is not what I would consider a "keep your head up" moment. Players aren't Spider-men with 360-degree danger alarms, and particularly when away from the puck there's a general expectation that other players will see you and not run you in the head. And unlike the NHL circa 1980, a little incidental run-in like that is enough to shut a player down for a long time.

However, to say it's some "special situation" other than an injury is going a bit far IMO. It probably be handled differently in past eras, but whether that would be good or bad for Crosby's career I'm not sure. There were probably players playing at less than their full potential due to their brains being scrambled... but then they are now considered "lesser players" for playing through it, while Crosby is a "better player" for sitting out??

I'm simply making the point that we KNOW that players played through concussions on a regular basis in the past. Great seasons were had under those circumstances. In the modern NHL we are not likely to see that happen. It's two completely different standards for dealing with a type of injury that is now epidemic, and comparing Crosby (or any of the others who miss large spans of time with concussions) to players of the past forces us to acknowledge that the hockey world has changed.

Similarly, look at the list of NFL QBs who have missed games with concussions this year. Comparing those guys to Staubach or Starr, you really do have to make note that they aren't necessarily less durable or tough just because they missed games with an injury that older players would have ignored.

 

[Big Phil]

I do think that's a legitimate point, and admittedly I have had my mind changed a little about Trottier's high-water mark -- it's easy to overlook what a Gretzky-less league would have looked like.

I'll say 1979 was his high water mark and just a year before Gretzky entered the NHL. I don't know, you decide, but I think the league was littered with Hall of Famers that year too. Top scorers:

1979 - Trottier 134, Dionne 130, Lafleur 129, Bossy 126, MacMillan 108, Choinard 107, Potvin 101, Federko 95. It wasn't easy to outpoint Dionne and Lafleur in those days I hope you know.

Look, some years in NHL history you can say were "weaker" in that particular year than others. I would say 2011 is the most recent example when the top end talent just wasn't showing up that year. There are years like that, but I wouldn't say 1979 was one of them. That being said, to win a major award in the NHL is never easy regardless of which season it is.

Everytime I see that I always think to myself "look out Sid". I don't know, maybe seeing all of Gretzky's career you get a little spoiled and assume that all players have their head on a swivel and know the whereabouts of EVERYONE on the ice. Crosby's hit was an accident but it just goes to show you how important it is whether it is 1980 or 2011 to keep your head up at all times. Because incidental contact can happen and seeing it coming at you probably prevents a lot of injuries.

Also seeing Lindros' career you hate to ever see a career go to waste like his. If he keeps his head up, literally, he is an all-time great. He just didn't maybe he wasn't taught to do it, I don't know. But you don't cross the street without looking both ways right? Don Cherry isn't always nuts, he knows all too well what happens when you are following the play and looking the other way. For some reason we have this culture in hockey of "the victim is never in the wrong". This isn't true because there is some accountability that goes with a player with their head down.

 

[Czech Your Math]

I'll say 1979 was his high water mark and just a year before Gretzky entered the NHL. I don't know, you decide, but I think the league was littered with Hall of Famers that year too. Top scorers:

1979 - Trottier 134, Dionne 130, Lafleur 129, Bossy 126, MacMillan 108, Choinard 107, Potvin 101, Federko 95. It wasn't easy to outpoint Dionne and Lafleur in those days I hope you know.

Look, some years in NHL history you can say were "weaker" in that particular year than others. I would say 2011 is the most recent example when the top end talent just wasn't showing up that year. There are years like that, but I wouldn't say 1979 was one of them. That being said, to win a major award in the NHL is never easy regardless of which season it is.

In terms of competiton, that's a pretty darn good top 4, no doubt.

In terms of actual difficult for stars to score points, '79 was still part of the diluted, weaker 70s, but it also seems to have become a bit tougher by that point. That's likely due to the league finally stopping expansion, and actually contracting by one team in '79.

Everytime I see that I always think to myself "look out Sid". I don't know, maybe seeing all of Gretzky's career you get a little spoiled and assume that all players have their head on a swivel and know the whereabouts of EVERYONE on the ice. Crosby's hit was an accident but it just goes to show you how important it is whether it is 1980 or 2011 to keep your head up at all times. Because incidental contact can happen and seeing it coming at you probably prevents a lot of injuries.

Also seeing Lindros' career you hate to ever see a career go to waste like his. If he keeps his head up, literally, he is an all-time great. He just didn't maybe he wasn't taught to do it, I don't know. But you don't cross the street without looking both ways right? Don Cherry isn't always nuts, he knows all too well what happens when you are following the play and looking the other way. For some reason we have this culture in hockey of "the victim is never in the wrong". This isn't true because there is some accountability that goes with a player with their head down.

It could happen to anyone, there's no doubt it's a large part just plain unlucky. I mean, even if Scott Stevens wants to send you to the moon, it still would take some bad luck to sustain a major concussion if you haven't already had one. It sure looked accidental, but who knows? If it wasn't, Crosby has to understand that his own actions may have contributed to it (or could in the future). He isn't the first to whine to the refs, but the diving, the childish antics (which are continuing)... it doesn't exactly decrease the odds that someone would want to put him in his place (see Giroux's hit at start of game 6). Whether or not it was an accident, I don't understand how someone with supposedly superior hockey sense skates back towards the middle of the ice at the end of the period, when he knows there may be opponents skating up ice. It's not to "blame the victim" really, but to show that all these alleged "intangibles" are often overblown as a means to promote a player based on subjective, often faulty, reasoning.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Right now Trottier. Crosby definitely has more explosiveness, but really its too early to compare careers.

I thought the question was who was the better player?

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Ok. And what about all the times he DID play through injury, which has been the expectation for hockey players since the dawn of the game? Do we not always make an effort to credit players who perform in spite of injury, as is currently happening over in the Wings/Avs/Devils thread?

Well, things are a bit different for the modern concussed player. There is no, "stick a needle in it and get out there for your next shift". Policy across the board states that he sits until symptoms are 100% gone.

I'm not surprised to be having this conversation in 2012, but I expect that by 2022 we will have a very different view "injury proneness" as it relates to concussions.




It's not like these guys have glass brains or something. Crosby got elbowed blindside in the head when he wasn't even close to the puck. What exactly makes him "injury prone" on that play, or responsible for the misdiagnosis that had him concussed again the following week? Is he supposed to check his blind spot before every turn, and diagnose himself at the hospital? "Keep your head up" doesn't quite serve as an antidote in this league.

I'm curious what you think about the point I made earlier: if concussions had always been diagnosed by 2012 standards, how do you think Trottier's career would look?

It should help their PPG - going further back in hockey history has great players playing through injuries that would easily keep them off the ice today.... That obviously hurt their PPG.

 

[tarheelhockey]

For some reason we have this culture in hockey of "the victim is never in the wrong".

I would say just the opposite -- hockey has the most victim-blaming culture of any sport. Did you see the main board thread where a 10-year-old Kyle Turris got a full-on body check from a 10-year-old Max Pacioretty during a no-hitting tournament, and people were saying it was his fault for trying to dangle around the defense?

 

[jack mullet]

some stats real quick

Trottier first 7 seasons- 278 goals, 482 assists, 760 points, +306, 1 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 1 Calder, 1 Smythe

Crosby first 7 seasons - 223 goals, 386 assists, 609 points, +81, 1 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 1 Rocket Richard* (tied with Stamkos)

 

[Big Phil]

I would say just the opposite -- hockey has the most victim-blaming culture of any sport. Did you see the main board thread where a 10-year-old Kyle Turris got a full-on body check from a 10-year-old Max Pacioretty during a no-hitting tournament, and people were saying it was his fault for trying to dangle around the defense?

No I never saw that video. There almost seems to be a culture shift going in the other direction though that it is okay to skate with your head down because someone hitting you will be villified with hitting a "vulnerable" player. It is happening very discreetly without people even realizing they are contributing to this type of environment. The best rule in hockey, skate with your head up at all times, isn't being taught like it used to.

It could happen to anyone, there's no doubt it's a large part just plain unlucky. I mean, even if Scott Stevens wants to send you to the moon, it still would take some bad luck to sustain a major concussion if you haven't already had one. It sure looked accidental, but who knows? If it wasn't, Crosby has to understand that his own actions may have contributed to it (or could in the future). He isn't the first to whine to the refs, but the diving, the childish antics (which are continuing)... it doesn't exactly decrease the odds that someone would want to put him in his place (see Giroux's hit at start of game 6). Whether or not it was an accident, I don't understand how someone with supposedly superior hockey sense skates back towards the middle of the ice at the end of the period, when he knows there may be opponents skating up ice. It's not to "blame the victim" really, but to show that all these alleged "intangibles" are often overblown as a means to promote a player based on subjective, often faulty, reasoning.

Which is what has bothered me about Crosby so far in his career. 2012 is a perfect example. That Philly/Pens series was a high scoring one that had rotten goaltending on either side. The Pens were clearly the more offensive team to play that type of game and I think the Flyers knew this. Instead, they manage to throw Crosby off his game to the point where there are all these sidebar issues on the ice. Head games and such and Crosby letting the fans and the Flyers players get to him and frustrate him. I would have liked to have seen Crosby just simply decide that series with his stick and nothing more, and he could have done that because he has the talent but he doesn't. Sort of the same in 2010 with PK Subban. I mean, the best revenge is to score, leave it at that.

This is why we never can and never will elevate him to Gretzky's level because Gretzky just beat the other team by flat out dominating them on the scoresheet. To a lesser extent, during the dynasty Trottier let his play to the talking as well. You just didn't see him get thrown off his game the way Crosby does. Maybe it was maturity, but Trottier's play did the talking. This is why I can't put Crosby ahead of him conclusively.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

This is why we never can and never will elevate him to Gretzky's level because Gretzky just beat the other team by flat out dominating them on the scoresheet.

Gretzky would take a vicious cheap shot and then score about 30 seconds later.

 

[Big Phil]

Gretzky would take a vicious cheap shot and then score about 30 seconds later.

Probably, or at least have the hockey sense to not put himself in that situation in a close game (or get involved in needless scrums). Honestly, it's good to drop the gloves or assert your prescence in a scrum but there is a time and a place.

 

[jack mullet]

This is why we never can and never will elevate him to Gretzky's level because Gretzky just beat the other team by flat out dominating them on the scoresheet. To a lesser extent, during the dynasty Trottier let his play to the talking as well. You just didn't see him get thrown off his game the way Crosby does. Maybe it was maturity, but Trottier's play did the talking. This is why I can't put Crosby ahead of him conclusively.

excellent points. IMO the worst thing Crosby could do is try to "fight back". getting a little stick work and being messed with comes with being a star. but how often did you see Gretzky getting into it with the other teams pest? rarely. a pest can frustrate you for 59 minutes of a game, but all it takes is one play to be a hero. Sid needs to learn how to stay focused.

 

[tarheelhockey]

excellent points. IMO the worst thing Crosby could do is try to "fight back". getting a little stick work and being messed with comes with being a star. but how often did you see Gretzky getting into it with the other teams pest? rarely. a pest can frustrate you for 59 minutes of a game, but all it takes is one play to be a hero. Sid needs to learn how to stay focused.

Not that I disagree with this idea, but we sure do seem to have a totally different set of rules for Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, Maurice Richard, Eddie Shore, and a slew of other guys who were a lot bigger stars than Crosby and had no problem taking 5+game to settle a score.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Not that I disagree with this idea, but we sure do seem to have a totally different set of rules for Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, Maurice Richard, Eddie Shore, and a slew of other guys who were a lot bigger stars than Crosby and had no problem taking 5+game to settle a score.

It definitely hindered Richard and Shore's games though - their tempers. I probably wouldn't want Orr fighting as much as he did either. Howe and Hull were better at rising above for the most part, while delivering the occasional, though serious, message.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Not that I disagree with this idea, but we sure do seem to have a totally different set of rules for Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, Maurice Richard, Eddie Shore, and a slew of other guys who were a lot bigger stars than Crosby and had no problem taking 5+game to settle a score.

No kidding.

It definitely hindered Richard and Shore's games though - their tempers. I probably wouldn't want Orr fighting as much as he did either. Howe and Hull were better at rising above for the most part, while delivering the occasional, though serious, message.

Howe didn't occasionally settle scores, he always settled scores.

He was sort of known for it. And lauded for it.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Howe didn't occasionally settle scores, he always settled scores.

He was sort of known for it. And lauded for it.

And he could wait to settle it. I'm just trying to say Howe does not seem as easy to rile up as someone like Crosby, who let's it take him off his game. Howe's was more of a controlled and patient vengeance.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

And he could wait to settle it. I'm just trying to say Howe does not seem as easy to rile up as someone like Crosby, who let's it take him off his game. Howe's was more of a controlled and patient vengeance.

To be honest, I don't know when "vengeance" has taken Crosby off his game, especially to the point of it being a a supposed character flaw.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

To be honest, I don't know when "vengeance" has taken Crosby off his game, especially to the point of it being a a supposed character flaw.

I'm probably using a poor choice of words. I have seen Crosby's feathers ruffled in the playoffs especially, and it riles him up - he starts playing much more chippy - jawing at the end of plays, lots of little slashes, complaining, occassionally diving, etc... I just do not think that is when he is at his best.

 

[jack mullet]

Not that I disagree with this idea, but we sure do seem to have a totally different set of rules for Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, Maurice Richard, Eddie Shore, and a slew of other guys who were a lot bigger stars than Crosby and had no problem taking 5+game to settle a score.

all those players you listed were much tougher than Crosby. Richard,Howe, and Orr could all take care of themselves if they needed to. with Sids concussion problems the last thing he needs to do is take a 5 to settle a score

 

[Rob Scuderi]

I'm probably using a poor choice of words. I have seen Crosby's feathers ruffled in the playoffs especially, and it riles him up - he starts playing much more chippy - jawing at the end of plays, lots of little slashes, complaining, occassionally diving, etc... I just do not think that is when he is at his best.

This is what you're looking for. Embarrassing, more petulant than standing up for himself imo, but hardly detracts from his ability as the clock was expiring.

 

[tarheelhockey]

It's good that he fights back. None of that wimpy ****.

And that's kind of what I'm getting at. Granted, he does in fact have kind of a whiny and slightly dirty way of going about it. But if he were just another Sedin-type who allowed moderately tough players to push him around like a coward, people would be in an uproar about that too. So he pushes back, slashes a guy's wrists one time in the playoffs, and now he's this villain who gets ruffled too easily and resorts to dirty tricks.

But... if he went full Pejorative Slur and just started dropping the gloves and bashing his hands against visors and smacking his head on the ice every few games, he would be lauded for it. I mean, let's be honest here. He'd have a huge fanbase for that one reason, even if it made no sense other than the fun of seeing a superstar get in fights.

I just see an oddly emotional response when people are asked to evaluate Crosby, comparable to how it was with Lindros when he was in his prime. It's not that way with Malkin and only a little with Ovechkin, but people seem to jump all over Crosby's flaws to a level that goes a bit beyond objective analysis.

 

[Big Phil]

excellent points. IMO the worst thing Crosby could do is try to "fight back". getting a little stick work and being messed with comes with being a star. but how often did you see Gretzky getting into it with the other teams pest? rarely. a pest can frustrate you for 59 minutes of a game, but all it takes is one play to be a hero. Sid needs to learn how to stay focused.

Exactly. Use that magic wand in your hand to deposit the biscuit in the basket. Look a PK Subban or a Claude Giroux straight in the eye during the series handshake and that is your revenge. People always ask why Gretzky rarely got hit. It isn't a myth but it is a two part answer. For starters he knew where everyone was on the ice. Secondly, he stayed away from the nonsense of scrums and trash talk and so on. He didn't play dirty, he has admitted that during a brawl he would look for the guy on the other team who didn't want to be there anymore than him and they'd hang onto each other. Gretzky says he could always find this guy because he was looking for him too. This didn't make Gretzky a wimp at all. Fighting wasn't his game and that's fine because he didn't ask for it either. Crosby too often is asking for it and I hate to say this because he is my favourite player in today's NHL.

Not that I disagree with this idea, but we sure do seem to have a totally different set of rules for Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, Maurice Richard, Eddie Shore, and a slew of other guys who were a lot bigger stars than Crosby and had no problem taking 5+game to settle a score.

Look at those names though. Crosby would lose to all of them in a fight. Sometimes you have to know your strengths. I can name off a couple of good players who I thought were good fighters despite being stars. Let's say Mike Richards and Darryl Sittler. They both are players that can/could surprisingly hold their own with anyone in a fight. Crosby isn't that way and I wish he would stop trying to be. Trottier didn't go looking for it either, but he also wasn't asking for it. I don't think Trottier was a perimeter player either just because he wasn't a big fighter. Crosby should be that type of player, it is effective.

Honestly, we all know Gretzky and even Howe couldn't get rattled. But to an extent Lemieux could get rattled by the pests and I honestly think this cost him at least another Cup. Look at 1993 how Kasparitis pestered him. Or the 1996 Florida Panthers, or his ejection in the Washington series in 1996. Lemieux could get frustrated too and it hurt him - a bit. Crosby should learn from this.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Exactly. Use that magic wand in your hand to deposit the biscuit in the basket. Look a PK Subban or a Claude Giroux straight in the eye during the series handshake and that is your revenge.

Somehow, I don't think it's a simple matter of choosing, particularly when your goalie and defense are putting on arguably the worst performance in NHL playoff history.

People conveniently forget this, but when Crosby got into the melee vs. Philly last year, his team was down 2-0 in the series and 3-1 in the 3rd game, and had frittered away its 3rd opening goal in a row. The team was saying all the right things but playing with no fire.

They needed a spark, and after Crosby got into it with Giroux, the team fared much better. That is not an opinion, that is an objective reality. But Philly ended up winning the series anyway, so all that's remembered is that Crosby got mad and the Pens lost.

People always ask why Gretzky rarely got hit. It isn't a myth but it is a two part answer. For starters he knew where everyone was on the ice. Secondly, he stayed away from the nonsense of scrums and trash talk and so on. He didn't play dirty, he has admitted that during a brawl he would look for the guy on the other team who didn't want to be there anymore than him and they'd hang onto each other. Gretzky says he could always find this guy because he was looking for him too. This didn't make Gretzky a wimp at all. Fighting wasn't his game and that's fine because he didn't ask for it either. Crosby too often is asking for it and I hate to say this because he is my favourite player in today's NHL.

Crosby is not Gretzky. He doesn't play the same elusive style of game, he uses his strength and speed of execution in the hard areas, which necessitates more contact.

Look at those names though. Crosby would lose to all of them in a fight. Sometimes you have to know your strengths. I can name off a couple of good players who I thought were good fighters despite being stars. Let's say Mike Richards and Darryl Sittler. They both are players that can/could surprisingly hold their own with anyone in a fight. Crosby isn't that way and I wish he would stop trying to be. Trottier didn't go looking for it either, but he also wasn't asking for it. I don't think Trottier was a perimeter player either just because he wasn't a big fighter. Crosby should be that type of player, it is effective.

When has Crosby ever tried to fight someone he was outmatched against? Because I can't remember a single instance.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'm probably using a poor choice of words. I have seen Crosby's feathers ruffled in the playoffs especially, and it riles him up - he starts playing much more chippy - jawing at the end of plays, lots of little slashes, complaining, occassionally diving, etc... I just do not think that is when he is at his best.

Most competitive players do. There are the antiseptic types like Lidstrom and Datsyuk, but they are not the norm.

As for when he's at his best, I just don't see any evidence of Crosby playing worse after getting chippy, as though an opponent's pests have gotten to him. He usually gets belligerent when he or his team's not performing and he's looking for an edge.

And that's kind of what I'm getting at. Granted, he does in fact have kind of a whiny and slightly dirty way of going about it. But if he were just another Sedin-type who allowed moderately tough players to push him around like a coward, people would be in an uproar about that too. So he pushes back, slashes a guy's wrists one time in the playoffs, and now he's this villain who gets ruffled too easily and resorts to dirty tricks.

But... if he went full Pejorative Slur and just started dropping the gloves and bashing his hands against visors and smacking his head on the ice every few games, he would be lauded for it. I mean, let's be honest here. He'd have a huge fanbase for that one reason, even if it made no sense other than the fun of seeing a superstar get in fights.

I just see an oddly emotional response when people are asked to evaluate Crosby, comparable to how it was with Lindros when he was in his prime. It's not that way with Malkin and only a little with Ovechkin, but people seem to jump all over Crosby's flaws to a level that goes a bit beyond objective analysis.

Exactly.

 

[Elvis P]

When Crosby has played 1279 games, let's talk. Until then this is just silly.

 

[canucks4ever]

Trottier was an excellent all around player but I feel he gets too much nostalgia love here. Why are people ignoring that his production was heavily reliant on the top right wing and the top offensive defenseman of that era? Crosby is an art ross caliber forward regardless of who he plays for and he won an art ross when he was 19. In 1977 trottier barely scored 70, then bossy comes along and his offense boosts. In 1980, potvin gets injured and trottier's offense tanks by 20 points, take bossy off his right wing and he would have scored even less. Trottier will probably have the better career, but crosby is better. He was held in a much higher regard as a prospect than trottier could ever dream of and his first two years were way better.