Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part V)

[bsl]

No scout bats 100. Of course not, every team has misses. The point though is to judge TT. I bet those teams with misses fire their scout at some point, TT has been here since 03, thats 16 years.

That gives us plenty to judge, and I just looked at his 1st round where we should be hitting out of the park.

Price/Max/McD/Serge/AG. Thats his 1st round work for 16 years.

AG is nothing special but the draft sucked. Still plenty of D and Forsberg there.

Price great player, but 3 great goalies taken in that draft, 2 in the 3rd round. Kopi the C we have been looking for for 25 years.

So if we want to say TT is an average scout or medicore fine I agree. But if we pump his tires as some amazing scout while then we can't use excuse of other teams miss or no scout is perfect.

TT is good at getting D, but sucks at forwards. Giroux, Kuznetzov, Carter, Kopi, thats 4 C's that he could of drafted over the last 16 years and he didn't get one of em.

The truth hurts.

"Price/Max/McD/Serge/AG. Thats his 1st round work for 16 years."

Ever heard of Caufield, Kotkaniemi, Poehling, and Juulsen???

LOL.

I agree that Timmins should have pleaded with him, if he had Aho on his radar. But sometimes when your boss tells you to do something, that's the way it is. All reports indicated Timmins pleaded with Gainey not to include McDonagh in the Gomez trade...

All I can see is the drafting is looking really good the last 3 years. Of course we'll have to wait and see what actually becomes of these players. But let's hope Timmins can keep it up over the next few years, because he's not going anywhere. He's smoking hot right now - or at least perceived as so.

So I get paid 500 k a year for a billion dollar organization but am too timid to disagree with my boss. Yeah. Good one.

I'm real disappointed with what Timmins has done lately. Let's fire him.

2016: Sergachev, Mete
2017: Poehling, Brook, Primeau, Fleury, Ikonen
2018: Kotkaniemi, Romanov, Ylonen, Harris, etc..
2019: Caufield, Struble, Fairbrother, Pitlick, etc...

We're rated as one of the best prospect pools in the league...

LOL. Three of those players are in the NHL. And barely. And none really proven. Mete has not scored a goal in the NHL. KK was drafted 3rd overall and is nowhere near proven. And Serge 9th overall, OK so far. Just LOL.

Lol....when some of us say prospects are a bust after 2 years of being drafted, it's ..."you can't judge a player/draft after just 2 years"

Now , after one year (and even 2 weeks) its..."we have the best prospects in the league"

oh....and you conveniently left out the years of 2008-2015, where we had a grand total of ONE player (Galchenyuk) make any kind of significant impact.

Wow...great job there...let's keep him another 10 years.

Love it. Great post. I suspect I'm partially banned here because of my position on Timmins. I said 3 years ago if Mac and Scherbak failed I would give up on him. I have. True to my word. A Lot of people here don't like that. Don't care. I am consistent and I think Timmins has been a terrible scout overall. The state of the Habs today is in great part because of him. Can't wait to see him go when the new GM comes in.

 

[26Mats]

So I get paid 500 k a year for a billion dollar organization but am too timid to disagree with my boss. Yeah. Good one.

You can disagree all you want. It doesn't change who has the final call.

 

[bsl]

Gallagher had no impact, Sergachev, Mete will have no impact....

and you conveniently left out 2003-2007, lol ...

He's staying. So suck it up. 2015-2019 will be marvelous. We'll talk about it in 5 to 7 years ...

Thanks master for telling us Timmins is staying and to suck it up. Wtf?

Haven't double checked the games played or points but this is how it looks on my first go around. I will double check at some point to ensure accuracy. If anybody sees any errors, let me know and I will update.

Various things you can look at and it's interesting to see how consistent the Habs have been in 12 years in terms of pts/game. Lets hope the 16-19 years result in a higher pt/game rate. At this point, we rank first in games played in that 4 year span (16-19).

This does not factor in trades. This is drafting results only. So we would have points from Galchenyuk and Sergachev. More of an evaluation on Timmins vs Bergevin.

Lol.

You can disagree all you want. It doesn't change who has the final call.

What are you talking about? Lol.

It's about percentage not lists, or one name like scherbak, which is what i was replying to.

If Juulsen, Poehling, KK, and Caufield pan out - it is an if, but not such a big if the way they've been progressing:

He's lights out in the lottery: 6/7, only failure being AK.

He's 3/10 with late 1sts (Pacioretty, Juulsen, Poehling). Not the greatest percentage, but not the worst either.

If you combine the lottery and non lottery, overall it's a good 1st round track record.

Anyways, he's not losing his job any time soon. We can talk about Juulsen, Poehling, Kk, and Caufield in 3 to 5 years when we actually see the results.

Note that Timmins supporter posts are super long.

I posted a modified drafting evaluation on the main board. Those who thought we sucked at drafting, you might be happy to find out that you were right. It’s not good but the last 4 year span is evidence we are on the right track.

Check out the scoring formula. It combines production vs draft pick quality and quantity.

@NotProkofievian. I listened to your criticism from before and made adjustments. How does this look?

Best Drafting Teams in the NHL

No the last 4 years drafting prove nothing. As almost no one he drafted has played a game in the nhl. Even kk at 3 is not a sure bet. What is with you people and Timmins?

You can disagree all you want. It doesn't change who has the final call.

I can disagree with monster xi in China too. But because i have no power I should shut up? As they say in Glasgow mate. What are you like?lmao. Seriously. Who are you to tell me what to do?

 

[26Mats]

I can disagree with monster xi in China too. But because i have no power I should shut up? As they say in Glasgow mate. What are you like?lmao. Seriously. Who are you to tell me what to do?

It's a misunderstanding...

When I used the word "you" I wasn't refering to you.

I was replying to your post where you said something like: "if you disagree with your boss you should speak up. That's what Timmins gets the big bucks for." This was in reference to Bergevin telling Timmins to get him a dman(Juulsen) in Aho's draft year.

So my response was "you (as in anyone in that situation) can disagree all you want. It doesn't mean the boss will take it into consideration when making the final call"

 

[Habs Halifax]

No the last 4 years drafting prove nothing. As almost no one he drafted has played a game in the nhl. Even kk at 3 is not a sure bet. What is with you people and Timmins?

It’s just a trend and it will change but I rather see this product vs nothing

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

Not when Timmins was really high on DeBrincat and maybe even Girard... Good asset management, my ass.

He traded the picks too soon, at least wait until you see who is still available.

Timmins was also high on John Carlson in 2008.

Weird. He's always high on the best possible prospects when he doesn't own the picks. But when he does, he advises his GM to trade down or gets a Danny Kristo/Zach Fucale/Sebastian Collberg.

Don't get me wrong. He's done great in the past couple of years. But that narrative has to stop. Timmins has had his share of misses for us, and I fail to see how the only picks we traded are the ones who, miraculously, he would have gotten right.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Timmins was also high on John Carlson in 2008.

Weird. He's always high on the best possible prospects when he doesn't own the picks. But when he does, he advises his GM to trade down or gets a Danny Kristo/Zach Fucale/Sebastian Collberg.

Don't get me wrong. He's done great in the past couple of years. But that narrative has to stop. Timmins has had his share of misses for us, and I fail to see how the only picks we traded are the ones who, miraculously, he would have gotten right.

In 2012 TT was high on Teuvo, Forsberg and Chucky, while MB was high on Reilly. We can't always assume Timmins would have picked the best player.

 

[montreal]

Timmins was also high on John Carlson in 2008.

Weird. He's always high on the best possible prospects when he doesn't own the picks. But when he does, he advises his GM to trade down or gets a Danny Kristo/Zach Fucale/Sebastian Collberg.

Don't get me wrong. He's done great in the past couple of years. But that narrative has to stop. Timmins has had his share of misses for us, and I fail to see how the only picks we traded are the ones who, miraculously, he would have gotten right.

we didn't trade down to get Kristo, our 1st was traded for Alex Tanguay. Collberg he was high on, perhaps because he had a big WJC at 17 over a ppg. Fucale I guess they went for need as he was highly rated if I recall correctly by CSB and other sites.

So we don't know if he advises his GM to trade down or up. We saw on the video at last years draft when MB tells him he's trading down and the reaction from Timmins doesn't appear to be too happy about it.

But we have no clue what goes on there, MB might say this is what i'm doing or maybe Timmins tells him it's a good idea.

One thing I can say, I know for a fact over a period of a few years who Timmins liked as I was told months in advance and the only time I was told something that wasn't correct was in '09 as I heard we were in on Despres not Leblanc. I remember being told how high Timmins was on McDonagh, Karlsson months before the draft. I didn't know who either of them were at times. It's one of the reasons why I defend Timmins so much around here, I used to get very good info on him and clearly to me he knows what he's doing.

That's not to say he doesn't make mistakes, all scouts do especially since the odds are so badly stacked against you but the guy knows how to pick NHL talent. He may not be the best in the business but I think he's better then many around here think he is. I think management has done him more harm then good in the past and now that it appears to be changing, I'm expecting much better results.

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

Timmins was also high on John Carlson in 2008.

Weird. He's always high on the best possible prospects when he doesn't own the picks. But when he does, he advises his GM to trade down or gets a Danny Kristo/Zach Fucale/Sebastian Collberg.

Don't get me wrong. He's done great in the past couple of years. But that narrative has to stop. Timmins has had his share of misses for us, and I fail to see how the only picks we traded are the ones who, miraculously, he would have gotten right.

Timmins déçu de ne pas avoir pu réclamer Girard

He was high on Girard, not Debrincat, my bad.

Some days after the 2016 draft. That's not hindsight at all. It's not like John Carlson.

 

[Teufelsdreck]

I think the 2019 entry draft was productive. Stop bellyaching, people. The Habs have moved closer to Toronto and Boston. It may be evident as earfy as this coming season. Boston hasn't done anything to improve over the team that lost to the Blues in hame 7. The April 6 encounter with Toronto demonstrated that despite the hiring of Babcock and the signing of Tavares the Maple Leafs are not the powerhouse they seemed to be, Frankly, I'm more concerned about Florida. If the Habs don't get past the Bruins and Lafs this coming season they'll do it in the following season. By then Chara will be retired and Bergeron will be 36 years old. and Marchand 32.

 

[26Mats]

Timmins déçu de ne pas avoir pu réclamer Girard

He was high on Girard, not Debrincat, my bad.

Some days after the 2016 draft. That's not hindsight at all. It's not like John Carlson.

Thanks for posting. Never saw that story.

 

[EXPOS123]

I think the 2019 entry draft was productive. Stop bellyaching, people. The Habs have moved closer to Toronto and Boston. It may be evident as earfy as this coming season. Boston hasn't done anything to improve over the team that lost to the Blues in hame 7. The April 6 encounter with Toronto demonstrated that despite the hiring of Babcock and the signing of Tavares the Maple Leafs are not the powerhouse they seemed to be, Frankly, I'm more concerned about Florida. If the Habs don't get past the Bruins and Lafs this coming season they'll do it in the following season. By then Chara will be retired and Bergeron will be 36 years old. and Marchand 32.

And Weber will be 35 and Price will be 33. We have nothing close to Pastrnak and McAvoy, and their prospect pool is a lot deeper than people think. As for Toronto, what are you talking about? Any team with Marner, Tavares, Mathews, Barrie, and Nylander (not to mention prospects like Lijegrn and Sandin) is gonna be good for a long time. And oh yeah, they can always add impact free agents, something we'll never be able to do. We are in no way shape or form moving closer to Boston and Toronto. Quite the opposite thanks to the idiots running this org.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

Just to put in pespective.

We traded away 2 x 2nd round picks for Shaw they turned out as Alex Debrincat and Chad Krys.

We traded Eller for 2 x 2nd round picks which ended up as Joni Ikonen, Jordan Harris and Samuel Houde.

Overall I would say it was a very shitty trades (even excluding the possibility of drafting Samuel Girard instead of Krys)

Unless we uncover a gem with our picks back from Chicago

 

[26Mats]

Just to put in pespective.

We traded away 2 x 2nd round picks for Shaw they turned out as Alex Debrincat and Chad Krys.

We traded Eller for 2 x 2nd round picks which ended up as Joni Ikonen, Jordan Harris and Samuel Houde.

Overall I would say it was a very ****ty trades (even excluding the possibility of drafting Samuel Girard instead of Krys)

Unless we uncover a gem with our picks back from Chicago

No guarantee we would have chosen Debrincat. Although, from that Timmins interview, it sounds as though we would have chosen Girard. Hopefully Harris and Ikonen step up.

 

[Whitesnake]

My beef will always be a strategy one with that group. I hate when people keep bringing the Well if you get 1 or 2, you did your job. No you don't. 'Cause if you miss, might as well miss with the best intentions. Yes, the end result is that no teams will see all their draft picks succeed. True. But if you miss, miss by selecting the BPA. Not a stupid left d-man strategy. This is incredibly stupid. You don't fill out a need if the guy you pick never make it. The need is not to have plenty of left d-men in a prospect pool. The need is to see them play in the NHL. Select the BPA, and trade them if you have too many of those for the position you don't have enough. Like Nylander for Jokijarju.

 

[WinterLion]

People don't seem to understand that picking 25th is not the same as picking 15... even though both are in the 1st round... by the time you get to the 20's in most drafts the percentages fall off big time and those players are much closer to 2nd rounders in terms % to play and % to become impact players.

 

[CapSpace]

My beef will always be a strategy one with that group. I hate when people keep bringing the Well if you get 1 or 2, you did your job. No you don't. 'Cause if you miss, might as well miss with the best intentions. Yes, the end result is that no teams will see all their draft picks succeed. True. But if you miss, miss by selecting the BPA. Not a stupid left d-man strategy. This is incredibly stupid. You don't fill out a need if the guy you pick never make it. The need is not to have plenty of left d-men in a prospect pool. The need is to see them play in the NHL. Select the BPA, and trade them if you have too many of those for the position you don't have enough. Like Nylander for Jokijarju.

Like Sergachev for Drouin?

 

[Whitesnake]

Like Sergachev for Drouin?

Yeah, well that kind of deal....but to our advantage this time around.

 

[Habs Halifax]

For those who are interested. Check it out and let me know what you think and if you see any errors or things you don't agree with.

- Last 8 and 12 years were horrible. Those of you who said this were right. I thought we were middle of the pack (+/-) but it's more like bottom 5.
- Last 4 year trend looks very good. It's a slightly different formula cause the draft pick hit score is not factored in yet due to the unknown of how the 15-19 picks will turn out.

 

[Whitesnake]

That was a half decent article by Gagnon. He forgets to mention one little thing though. Only 18 Q players were selected in this weekend's draft. Maybe reporters shouldn't be addressing asinine questions to TT but rather accusatory ones to the people in charge of hockey development in Quebec. And there was one very telling sentence in Gagnon's article:

"Peu importe qu’il soit Américain, Russe, Finlandais, Suédois ou Québécois francophone."

If we're to take Gagnon at his word then ethnicity is another factor that needs to be considered. It doesn't matter that the Habs got two francophones in the draft. One wasn't from the right province and both were taken too late. I wonder what the rreaction would have been if the Habs had selected 4 Q players but they were either European imports or damn anglos. I'd love to read those articles. So if ethnicity matters then we have to revise that number of 18 Q players selected in 2019 draft because 5 were European imports and two were Anglophone players. That means the Q produced only 11 francophone players good enough to be drafted.

Leroux and other reporters should go and drill hockey coaches in Quebec instead of the head scout for the Habs. It's quite obvious elite Quebec Francophone athletes are either not taking up hockey or if they are they are not being developed properly by our local coaches. The Q should send investigators to the Western provinces, Ontario, the states, Finland and Sweden and see what they are doing right and what Quebec is doing wrong. Asking TT why he didn't draft more Quebec francophones is one of the things they're doing wrong.

First, if it's time to cut the bullshit, let's everybody cut it. JOurnalists keep repeating that Timmins and Co are missing the boat ESPECIALLY since they keep saying that they will do everything they can to draft a Quebecer or Q player. So first...stop saying that. Let Bergevin and Timmins say that we don't care about the language. We can't. We need to concentrate solely on the skills as it's already tough like that. And for people who will say they can't say that...what the f*** seriously. What's better? Saying they'll do draft Q and don't? Or saying they won't.. and maybe they will? How about this f***ing management be honest for a change? Then, I'm sorry, but there's a freakin limit to NOT be interested in whatever Q content there is. You will draft a 21 year old belarussian and one of the first Midget AAA guy instead of somebody close by that you have to have seen more than those guys? Timmins is in Blainville almost everytime I am. And if your answer is, well since he's here, he knows for sure what's good and what's not...well of course not. And tons of examples are the guys we took and the ones we don't.

Is the Q exempt from problems? Obviously not. Can't produce goalies anymore. And the rest. But it's clear that this organization simply doesn't believe in the Q. I mean...wouldn't you take players from places you believe in? But of course, THAT you can't say. There's a limit to honesty. But enough crap with the we will take a Quebecer at equal talent, a bogus expression that does not exist anyway....

 

[Chadstudsky]

First, if it's time to cut the bull****, let's everybody cut it. JOurnalists keep repeating that Timmins and Co are missing the boat ESPECIALLY since they keep saying that they will do everything they can to draft a Quebecer or Q player. So first...stop saying that. Let Bergevin and Timmins say that we don't care about the language. We can't. We need to concentrate solely on the skills as it's already tough like that. And for people who will say they can't say that...what the **** seriously. What's better? Saying they'll do draft Q and don't? Or saying they won't.. and maybe they will? How about this ****ing management be honest for a change? Then, I'm sorry, but there's a freakin limit to NOT be interested in whatever Q content there is. You will draft a 21 year old belarussian and one of the first Midget AAA guy instead of somebody close by that you have to have seen more than those guys? Timmins is in Blainville almost everytime I am. And if your answer is, well since he's here, he knows for sure what's good and what's not...well of course not. And tons of examples are the guys we took and the ones we don't.

Is the Q exempt from problems? Obviously not. Can't produce goalies anymore. And the rest. But it's clear that this organization simply doesn't believe in the Q. I mean...wouldn't you take players from places you believe in? But of course, THAT you can't say. There's a limit to honesty. But enough crap with the we will take a Quebecer at equal talent, a bogus expression that does not exist anyway....

You've got your tinfoil hat on. They have their list and follow it period.

 

[Habs Icing]

First, if it's time to cut the bull****, let's everybody cut it. JOurnalists keep repeating that Timmins and Co are missing the boat ESPECIALLY since they keep saying that they will do everything they can to draft a Quebecer or Q player. So first...stop saying that. Let Bergevin and Timmins say that we don't care about the language. We can't. We need to concentrate solely on the skills as it's already tough like that. And for people who will say they can't say that...what the **** seriously. What's better? Saying they'll do draft Q and don't? Or saying they won't.. and maybe they will? How about this ****ing management be honest for a change? Then, I'm sorry, but there's a freakin limit to NOT be interested in whatever Q content there is. You will draft a 21 year old belarussian and one of the first Midget AAA guy instead of somebody close by that you have to have seen more than those guys? Timmins is in Blainville almost everytime I am. And if your answer is, well since he's here, he knows for sure what's good and what's not...well of course not. And tons of examples are the guys we took and the ones we don't.

Is the Q exempt from problems? Obviously not. Can't produce goalies anymore. And the rest. But it's clear that this organization simply doesn't believe in the Q. I mean...wouldn't you take players from places you believe in? But of course, THAT you can't say. There's a limit to honesty. But enough crap with the we will take a Quebecer at equal talent, a bogus expression that does not exist anyway....

I really don't understand your post.

18 players came out of the Q at the last draft. It ain't just the Habs that don't believe in the Q. It's the whole effing league. With 18 Q players to go around 31 - soon to be 32 - teams, what exactly do you expect the Habs to do?

Timmins works for a team located in Quebec. He'd be fired on the spot during the presser if he tells the journalists the truth. So as long as the Q journalists haven't got the balls or the will to investigate what is really going on with Quebec hockey, Timmins will be giving BS answers to BS questions.

I feel like the subtext of your post is that the Habs are ignoring Q players. Finland with a little more than half the population of Quebec had 14 selected at the last draft. If you remove the imports from the Q players selected, the Q provided 13. Sweden with a slightly larger population had 20.

If you're upset you should direct your ire at these moronic, lazy journalists who don't bother to do any investigative work and just ask the same BS questions year in and year out.

 

[Whitesnake]

I really don't understand your post.

19 players came out of the Q at the last draft. It ain't just the Habs that don't believe in the Q. It's the whole effing league. With 18 Q players to go around 31 - soon to be 32 - teams, what exactly do you expect the Habs to do?

Timmins works for a team located in Quebec. He'd be fired on the spot during the presser if he tells the journalists the truth. So as long as the Q journalists haven't got the balls or the will to investigate what is really going on with Quebec hockey, Timmins will be giving BS answers to BS questions.

I feel like the subtext of your post is that the Habs are ignoring Q players. Finland with a little more than half the population of Quebec had 14 selected at the last draft. If you remove the imports from the Q players selected, the Q provided 13. Sweden with a slightly larger population had 20.

If you're upset you should direct your ire at these moronic, lazy journalists who don't bother to do any investigative work and just ask the same BS questions year in and year out.

And yet it's not a question of just the last draft. But even if there are only 19...2 from drafted by the Pens. And no, he won't be fired for saying that we are actually looking at the great players and that language do not matter at all. That you can find players that cares about this Montreal team even if they don't speak french. And so on. That what we can do to promote the Q is surely using more staff from the Q whether they are scouts or thereapists or whatever. To give back to the community. And if in the end you really really want to give the Q a chance, you should hire other guys that the clowns actually scouting the Q. 18 isn't a big number. I have no idea how it has to translate into the Habs having trouble to pick one or solely and always going for the 6th round filler.

And I also said that the Q has to look itself in the mirror.

 

[Whitesnake]

You've got your tinfoil hat on. They have their list and follow it period.

Geez is their list given to them or are they the ones making it?

 

[Habs Icing]

And yet it's not a question of just the last draft. But even if there are only 19...2 from drafted by the Pens. And no, he won't be fired for saying that we are actually looking at the great players and that language do not matter at all. That you can find players that cares about this Montreal team even if they don't speak french. And so on. That what we can do to promote the Q is surely using more staff from the Q whether they are scouts or thereapists or whatever. To give back to the community. And if in the end you really really want to give the Q a chance, you should hire other guys that the clowns actually scouting the Q. 18 isn't a big number. I have no idea how it has to translate into the Habs having trouble to pick one or solely and always going for the 6th round filler.

And I also said that the Q has to look itself in the mirror.

Sorry, WS, you're all over the place.

At a presser Before the 2020 draft in Montreal

Reporter from JDM: Trevor, are you going to pick more players from the Q? Or more importantly, Francophone players from Quebec?

TT: To be quite frank, I don't think so. As a league, the Q has been producing fewer and fewer quality players and we just can't take a chance to go off the board. If a quality Q player falls to one of our picks we'll happily select him but the chances of that happening are slim and none. (You asked in your previous post for Timmins to stop lying and tell the truth. He just told you the truth).

Dateline: The next day:

Headline: Protestors picket outside the Bell Center. Molson issues an apology for TT's comments and informs everyone that TT has been relieved of his duties effective as of yesterday.

********************************************************

Hockey in Quebec is pretty close to resembling our roads and claiming that TT and the Habs are not doing enough to encourage Q players is like the Quebec government turning to Quebec citizens and saying it's their fault the roads are in such a terrible condition.