Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part V)

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SpeedyPotato

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Sorry, WS, you're all over the place.

At a presser Before the 2020 draft in Montreal

Reporter from JDM: Trevor, are you going to pick more players from the Q? Or more importantly, Francophone players from Quebec?

TT: To be quite frank, I don't think so. As a league, the Q has been producing fewer and fewer quality players and we just can't take a chance to go off the board. If a quality Q player falls to one of our picks we'll happily select him but the chances of that happening are slim and none. (You asked in your previous post for Timmins to stop lying and tell the truth. He just told you the truth).

Dateline: The next day:

Headline: Protestors picket outside the Bell Center. Molson issues an apology for TT's comments and informs everyone that TT has been relieved of his duties effective as of yesterday.

********************************************************

Hockey in Quebec is pretty close to resembling our roads and claiming that TT and the Habs are not doing enough to encourage Q players is like the Quebec government turning to Quebec citizens and saying it's their fault the roads are in such a terrible condition.
I agree with you overall. I do think though that criticizing TT for not picking a Q player is fair game if that particular player becomes much better than the player he picked. You should know what's growing in your backyard better than anybody else and I don't think it's normal that other teams have been able to find diamonds in the rough in the Q while the habs haven't. That being said, I've liked the habs drafting philosophy in the last few years, nothing to say about it.
 

Whitesnake

If you rebuild, they will come.
Jan 5, 2003
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Sorry, WS, you're all over the place.

At a presser Before the 2020 draft in Montreal

Reporter from JDM: Trevor, are you going to pick more players from the Q? Or more importantly, Francophone players from Quebec?

TT: To be quite frank, I don't think so. As a league, the Q has been producing fewer and fewer quality players and we just can't take a chance to go off the board. If a quality Q player falls to one of our picks we'll happily select him but the chances of that happening are slim and none. (You asked in your previous post for Timmins to stop lying and tell the truth. He just told you the truth).

Dateline: The next day:

Headline: Protestors picket outside the Bell Center. Molson issues an apology for TT's comments and informs everyone that TT has been relieved of his duties effective as of yesterday.

********************************************************

Hockey in Quebec is pretty close to resembling our roads and claiming that TT and the Habs are not doing enough to encourage Q players is like the Quebec government turning to Quebec citizens and saying it's their fault the roads are in such a terrible condition.

I have no idea why it matters that the Q produces fewer quality player. Is the Q producing fewer quality player a reason why NOT to draft the ones that exist? Fewer quality Q players means that you can't fill your prospect lineup out of Q players...but does that mean you can't pick up 1 or 2 if they are good enough, and some are, see what the Pens did this year. History will tell if they were right or wrong. Just like history told us how bad Timmins was between 08 and 15. Despite the Q being so weak, if Timmins would have picked, and had the chance to pick, Jason Demers, David Savard, Mike Hoffman, Phil Danault, Pageau, Palat, Duclair, Barbashev, Beauvillier, Joseph etc., Yes, the talent is less present. But it's still there. And you could have salvaged some terrible drafts by picking 1, 2 or 3 of those guys as weak the league is.

And the response about how weak a league is is pretty much laughable right now when last draft we pick a guy from Midget AAA league.....How many prospects are picked from that league? Tell me how great it is.
 

Habs Icing

Formerly Onice
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I have no idea why it matters that the Q produces fewer quality player. Is the Q producing fewer quality player a reason why NOT to draft the ones that exist? Fewer quality Q players means that you can't fill your prospect lineup out of Q players...but does that mean you can't pick up 1 or 2 if they are good enough, and some are, see what the Pens did this year. History will tell if they were right or wrong. Just like history told us how bad Timmins was between 08 and 15. Despite the Q being so weak, if Timmins would have picked, and had the chance to pick, Jason Demers, David Savard, Mike Hoffman, Phil Danault, Pageau, Palat, Duclair, Barbashev, Beauvillier, Joseph etc., Yes, the talent is less present. But it's still there. And you could have salvaged some terrible drafts by picking 1, 2 or 3 of those guys as weak the league is.

And the response about how weak a league is is pretty much laughable right now when last draft we pick a guy from Midget AAA league.....How many prospects are picked from that league? Tell me how great it is.

In this last draft, the Habs picked up one player from the Q and a Francophone from Ontario. Out of 18 Q players selected the Habs picked one. And that was with 30 other teams in the hunt. Obviously, that was not enough for you or you wouldn't be griping about it.

You tell me with their picks where they could have selected another Q player. In the first round? Given up on Caufield and gone after Poulin? In the second round? Given up on Struble and gone after Artemi Kniazev? Oh wait he may be from the Q but he doesn't exactly have the right name. How about Samuel Bolduc picked 11 spots later. How about the third round? Forget Norlinder and pick up Legare who was drafted 10 picks later. Please go through the draft and tell me where they should have picked a Q player and a Francophone to boot because we know that's what the media are looking for.

Last year there were 40 odd NHLers who came from Quebec. Over a 10 year span, that means roughly 4 Quebec players selected from each draft make it into the NHL. Of the 18 that were selected in the last draft maybe 4 become NHLers......at best.
 

Whitesnake

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In this last draft, the Habs picked up one player from the Q and a Francophone from Ontario. Out of 18 Q players selected the Habs picked one. And that was with 30 other teams in the hunt. Obviously, that was not enough for you or you wouldn't be griping about it.

You tell me with their picks where they could have selected another Q player. In the first round? Given up on Caufield and gone after Poulin? In the second round? Given up on Struble and gone after Artemi Kniazev? Oh wait he may be from the Q but he doesn't exactly have the right name. How about Samuel Bolduc picked 11 spots later. How about the third round? Forget Norlinder and pick up Legare who was drafted 10 picks later. Please go through the draft and tell me where they should have picked a Q player and a Francophone to boot because we know that's what the media are looking for.

Last year there were 40 odd NHLers who came from Quebec. Over a 10 year span, that means roughly 4 Quebec players selected from each draft make it into the NHL. Of the 18 that were selected in the last draft maybe 4 become NHLers......at best.

I'm obviously talking in general not necessarily for this last draft. Timmins don't care about the Q. Or he would have stronger scouts than the clowns we have now. No, I don't believe that we should have picked a Q instead of what we did. Never said that. I'm talking in general reason why I went back to the 2008 draft. Pretty sure that was evident. And again, yes, it's not a big success right now. Yet again, the day you start picking from Midget AAA is the day you say that the strength of the league is totally not important and that great players could still come up from the said league.

I mean, if I follow your logic in your response, I will then believe that you won't pick Lafrenière because he's from a weak league. And yeah, I know it doesn't make sense. And I know that's not what you think. Just have a hard time believing that you'd think I would have picked Poulin instead of Caufield....
 

Habs Icing

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I'm obviously talking in general not necessarily for this last draft. Timmins don't care about the Q. Or he would have stronger scouts than the clowns we have now. No, I don't believe that we should have picked a Q instead of what we did. Never said that. I'm talking in general reason why I went back to the 2008 draft. Pretty sure that was evident. And again, yes, it's not a big success right now. Yet again, the day you start picking from Midget AAA is the day you say that the strength of the league is totally not important and that great players could still come up from the said league.

I mean, if I follow your logic in your response, I will then believe that you won't pick Lafrenière because he's from a weak league. And yeah, I know it doesn't make sense. And I know that's not what you think. Just have a hard time believing that you'd think I would have picked Poulin instead of Caufield....
That's not what I mean by a weak league. For me, a weak league is one that has the horses but can't development them properly. Obviously, even in a weak league, you will find some good teams and/or coaches. I'm talking in general. The league in general. And maybe the problem isn't with the Q. Maybe it's with the younger leagues.

I'm older than many in this forum and I can remember the Hab teams from the late 60s, 70s and 80s. They were stacked with Quebec players. Hell the NHL was filled with Quebec players. They were being developed like weeds. Then the last two decades there has been a sharp decline and it's not because the Habs stopped drafting them. The Canadiens stopped drafting Q players because there have been fewer and fewer players developed by the Q.

The Q should be the second or third most prolific league at the draft yet it is quickly becoming one of the least prolific. And it's not because Quebec has lost interest in hockey. It's not because the best athletes from Eastern Canada (QC & Maritimes) don't go into hockey. It's because there is something wrong with our development program. We are making mistakes and not even aware of them. The Q should send a delegation to Finland, Sweden, the USA, hell even Switzerland and see what they are doing that we can adapt to our system.
 
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Whitesnake

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That's not what I mean by a weak league. For me, a weak league is one that has the horses but can't development them properly. Obviously, even in a weak league, you will find some good teams and/or coaches. I'm talking in general. The league in general. And maybe the problem isn't with the Q. Maybe it's with the younger leagues.

I'm older than many in this forum and I can remember the Hab teams from the late 60s, 70s and 80s. They were stacked with Quebec players. Hell the NHL was filled with Quebec players. They were being developed like weeds. Then the last two decades there has been a sharp decline and it's not because the Habs stopped drafting them. The Canadiens stopped drafting Q players because there have been fewer and fewer players developed by the Q.

The Q should be the second or third most prolific league at the draft yet it is quickly becoming one of the least prolific. And it's not because Quebec has lost interest in hockey. It's not because the best athletes from Eastern Canada (QC & Maritimes) don't go into hockey. It's because there is something wrong with our development program. We are making mistakes and not even aware of them. The Q should send a delegation to Finland, Sweden, the USA, hell even Switzerland and see what they are doing that we can adapt to our system.

And again, I have no problem with the majority of what you are saying. In no way am I disputing that the Q has a serious problem and is behind the other leagues. My sole and only point is that despite all that...you should still be able to recognize your local talent since you should be able to benefit that maybe half of the league only have part timers following the Q. Yes, again, it tells a whole lot of stories when teams do not think that the Q is worthy enough to have permanent scouts, yet, history shows that you STILL can find some hidden gems. From Marchessault to Gourde amongst a few players. And that there is no reasons why we wouldn't be on top. Yes, we should be on top for every league. Yet, looking at the scouts we have, at least in quantity, I think we are. But for a guy, as I said, who is probably half of his time in a Q arena, compared to other teams who mostly aren't, it means that not only he thinks the Q is weak..he thinks the Q is nothing. And I think that's false.

Again, you pick from Midget AAA, you can pick more often from the Q. And based on his record from 08-15, there is no way we could say that by doing so, it would have affected his record....
 

26Mats

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the fact that Olofsson went from the end of Oct to the end of the season and scored just 1 goal is just so jaw droppingly bad it's hard to comprehend. It's not like he was a 4th liner as he was at times on the 2nd line and the PP. but that's not just SHL games, as it's the WJC's, U-20 tournaments as well.

I hope Timmins ends up being right in wanting to draft Hillis in the 2nd round. His passing/playmaking is legit.

Fairbrother and Pitlick are guys I would be looking at around here as well.

What are you referencing with respect toTimmins wanting to draft Hillis in the 2nd?
 

MD thaivuN

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What are you referencing with respect toTimmins wanting to draft Hillis in the 2nd?

there was a video on the habs Draft table that year. Timmins wanted to draft Hillis with the third 2nd round pick. Then MB traded that for the 3rd round pick (which ended getting Hillis) and Timmins looked disappointed.
 

26Mats

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there was a video on the habs Draft table that year. Timmins wanted to draft Hillis with the third 2nd round pick. Then MB traded that for the 3rd round pick (which ended getting Hillis) and Timmins looked disappointed.


Interesting. Do you have a link?

See, this is the kind of post where I don't feel the other person's arguing in good faith.

Take the debate on trading down for example:
You first assume that I'm not a fan of trading down and subsequently ask my thoughts on if I was open to trade the 3 OA.
I respond with general guidelines and a thought process on why and how I'd be open to trading down throughout the draft.
You respond that it's not the same at the top of the draft and that its a reach to draw them together.

Obviously, if someone asks me draw two things together, I'll do it as I assume that person is interested in my thought process and not because he's baiting.

And throughout all of this, you're not taking any stance.

You start with the assumption that the draft is a crapshoot and the late 2nd rounds on are basically worthless errr *House money*. But at the same time, MB had 90 seconds to "plan" (since that's how you call it) during each pick between the Olofsson pick to the 62nd one to make sure a worthless asset like Hillis would be available at 66. That's your "logic scenario" (btw, yes, I know teams do discuss trades based on who could potentially be there). All of that, for a 5th rounder in a draft where talent dipped around the end of the 3rd.

And, you suggest all of this based on absolutely no evidence. None. Not only that, but you never actually take the stance that this is what you think MB did.

And then, you admit scouts know each other (which I actually brought up) and who they're high on. And guess who's at the top of the scouting pyramid, who would have most access to this info ? Hmmm...

So, here's actual evidence, cited straight from the horses mouth:

1. Timmins wanted Hillis badly.
2. Hillis was one of his favorite players.
3. He was nervous about trading down to 66. Didn't want to miss him by trading down.

So, let's actually try to further this debate, because we're stalling and I feel like none of the points I brought up are being addressed. You can obviously elaborate these questions, but without a definite yes/no answer to start them, I don't feel like we'll be able to go anywhere from here on (and I'll then have to bow out of our debate).

1. Does this sound like someone confident his player would be there?

2. Does this sound like someone who didn't mind dropping to the next guy on his list ?

2. Do you think Timmins recommended MB to go ahead with the trade or not ?


Do you have link to the video or audio of these Timmins comments about Hillis?
 
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montreal

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I don't know how you can look at the vid and the reaction on Timmins face and not at least assume he looks pissed or at least not happy about it.
 

26Mats

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look for the 9:00 mark

Did you watch the vid in OP? If you did you'd see Timmins' reaction when MB said he was trading down.




At 9:21, it's the 2nd round, and we're up for the pick that MB moments later trades.

Is that MB saying "Hillis?" to Timmins and then Timmins saying "yep"?

(MB after that gets on the phone and trades the pick)
 

Whitesnake

If you rebuild, they will come.
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I don't know how you can look at the vid and the reaction on Timmins face and not at least assume he looks pissed or at least not happy about it.

No doubt he is. But just answer me this. If Bergie is really running the show over all....why in the world is it important for him to get another pick, if the guys in charge of the picks have nobody to select? If Timmins at one point before the draft tells him, I hvae a list of 40, and they are all gone when it's time to talk, why is it important to get pick 133?

Also...not sure I understand the moment there. It's time to pick Hillis with our original pick but then...Timmins leaves in a hurry? Where is he going? You pick at the table from round 2. In the end, Bergie did take the right decision, we got the player we wanted and got another pick in the process. Yep, Timmins seems frustrated and worried 'cause it was possible to see Hillis not be available. Yet, no Hillis available, he could have went Madden or Wise really easily if he wanted a C. And while Wise would not look....wise right now...Madden would look awesome. Anyway, future will tell.
 

montreal

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No doubt he is. But just answer me this. If Bergie is really running the show over all....why in the world is it important for him to get another pick, if the guys in charge of the picks have nobody to select? If Timmins at one point before the draft tells him, I hvae a list of 40, and they are all gone when it's time to talk, why is it important to get pick 133?

Also...not sure I understand the moment there. It's time to pick Hillis with our original pick but then...Timmins leaves in a hurry? Where is he going? You pick at the table from round 2. In the end, Bergie did take the right decision, we got the player we wanted and got another pick in the process. Yep, Timmins seems frustrated and worried 'cause it was possible to see Hillis not be available. Yet, no Hillis available, he could have went Madden or Wise really easily if he wanted a C. And while Wise would not look....wise right now...Madden would look awesome. Anyway, future will tell.

who the hell knows with MB, we can only speculate but Timmins clearly didn't look happy about it. Yes it worked out but it then makes you wonder what else he's done that Timmins wasn't happy with, and if they are working together on this since it's supposed to be Timmins show then why did Timmins look pissed since shouldn't it have been something he wanted?

Lots of questions, no answers so there's nothing we can do but speculate.
 

Kotkaniemi15

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On TSN 690 this morning, they were talking about how Scherbak said Therrien was a bad coach because he would yell after every mistake and that ruined the confidence of the young players on the team. Scherbak also said that Marc Bergevin gave him a curfew and wouldn’t let him get an apartment downtown.
 

Le Tricolore

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On TSN 690 this morning, they were talking about how Scherbak said Therrien was a bad coach because he would yell after every mistake and that ruined the confidence of the young players on the team. Scherbak also said that Marc Bergevin gave him a curfew and wouldn’t let him get an apartment downtown.
Seems like good management by Bergevin. And.. yes, we know Therrien is a bad coach. Not sure I'd blame him for Scherbak being a bust though.
 

1909

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When hey are back home, these Russian players have big mouths....
 

Rosso Scuderia

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When hey are back home, these Russian players have big mouths....

Why would they care anymore. At least they didn't run their mouth while wearing our jersey. I've read stories about north americans coming back from hockey in Europe/Russia having negatives things to say too so don't make it sound like it's a "russian thing".


I know he flopped.. but the blame should be on both sides. If you can't developed russians, then don't draft them. And this show that the Habs have development problems. Not every players are angels and yes man. Some needs more attentions or special care.
 

Pompeius Magnus

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Meh, there's really nothing much to write home about there. The '' I was doing pretty good but then they sent me to the AHL and wouldn't tell we why'' thing you will hear from literally every former first rounder that didn't make it. That Therrien was an idiot has been made painfully obvious numerous times already. The allegations that Russian players aren't allowed to hang out and talk to each other in the locker room and that Scherbak was kept isolated would need to be corroborated by other people. I do think there is truth to the fact that we seem to have a hard time with Russian players in general, this would need to be further investigated.
 
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Adam Michaels

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Канадские площадки ударят по креативу КХЛ. И поставят точку в карьере Мозякина

The google translation is good enough. He really didn't like Therrien and Bergevin seems to have a really bad reputation in Russia.

If the translation is correct, then what I get out of this article is the kid needs to look himself in the mirror and not point fingers at everyone else.

He talks like it's everyone else's fault and none of it is his.
 

angusyoung

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We know Therrien and Bergevin are clowns...........but this kid was a flop...he has to own it...

He has some decent looking skills,as does Galchenyuk,offensively speaking,but floaters that were not groomed properly. These kids are young and it takes proper communication to reach each individual and they vary greatly from one to another. Not sure if MT was all that great at that sort of thing. Look what happened to Vincent D'Onofrios charter in Full metal jacket,not pretty. At the same time,some kids are indifferent to anything and feel entitled to do as they please.
 
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