Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part IV)

[Mrb1p]

He hit in in 2010 with Gally. That's it. Should we be applauding him for drafting an NHL player with the 3rd overall pick.

No, but you cant say he was bad either.

Average =/= bad

 

[The Great Weal]

No, but you cant say he was bad either.

Average =/= bad

That isn't average either. Asking for at least one NHL player when you have the top 3 pick is a crazy low expectation.

 

[Mrb1p]

That isn't average either. Asking for at least one NHL player when you have the top 3 pick is a crazy low expectation.

The NHL doesnt happen in a nutshell, you have data to look at and its exactly what it says. One NHL player a year with about two years of drought and one big hit.

 

[Habs Icing]

Tbh he was terrible in 08, 09, 11, 13 and 14.
2010 with Gally
2012 with Chucky
2015 with Juulsen and Vejdemo.

One NHL player is about par for the course for an average draft. Even in 13 and 14 he did okay but below average

I'll be generous and say he has been average over the years. That means he is giving us an average team. We need a top head scout to give us a top team.

 

[Mrb1p]

I'll be generous and say he has been average over the years. That means he is giving us an average team. We need a top head scout to give us a top team.

Yeah if someone better comes around I'm all for it, but I don't think that exists.

 

[Kriss E]

It's not the same hype and hope though. I think people are more happy on the latest group based on draft +1 and +2 years of development and we have both Quality and Quantity.

I don't think it's fair to group people cause there are different things said in terms of hope and hype. Personally, I was always concerned with Beaulieu's defensive game cause he seemed to always make decisions with the puck that was concerning. Tinordi was never a grade A value if you ask me.

Well you weren't on this board so very easy to say now. Considering how you spoke to me about Scherback, DLR, Mac, etc, how we needed to be patient with them and you were happy Bergey wasn't mortaging our future away by trading them, I have a very very very hard time believing you would have been low on Beaulieu.
Ya, you were concerned about his decision making, fine. We can be concerned about any prospect if you talk about their flaws.
Back in 2012, people on this board were calling Tinordi an untouchable.

Is this current group more exciting? Sure, I can agree there. Still, too much is made of it.

 

[Habs Halifax]

He most definitely did not. He was good defensively after he got called up and was bad defensively before that. His offensive game is still nonexistent and is a liability. Weber needs Mete because he is a gifted skater. That's the only reason. It's not because of him being a top 4 d.

Juulsen struggled even without the injury. Hes got potential to be a top 4 d, but nobody knows what will happen with him. But as of right now, it seems underwhelming.

I understand your concerns with Mete as I have some of my own but he did play to top 4D quality with Weber after he came back from the AHL. There are things to like and dislike but overall, he had a solid season and I see him improving more and more.

Juulsen didn't struggle any more than any other top 4D that plays in this league as a young kid. He was our best D man behind Petry to start the year and before he got hurt and Weber came back.

You can be picky all you want and I get that but these two kids are definitely top 4D quality.

Well you weren't on this board so very easy to say now. Considering how you spoke to me about Scherback, DLR, Mac, etc, how we needed to be patient with them and you were happy Bergey wasn't mortaging our future away by trading them, I have a very very very hard time believing you would have been low on Beaulieu.
Ya, you were concerned about his decision making, fine. We can be concerned about any prospect if you talk about their flaws.
Back in 2012, people on this board were calling Tinordi an untouchable.

Is this current group more exciting? Sure, I can agree there. Still, too much is made of it.

I never had Scherbak, DLR, Mac as grade A assets. I had DLR and Mac as bottom 6 talent and Scherbak as a chance to be a middle 6F. You likely twisted any hope comments I said into me thinking they will be stars.

Don't get me wrong, I liked Beaulieu and Tinordi. Like I said, I had Beaulieu as the better guy but I wasn't raving about him. Fringe Grade A piece back when and Tinordi was grade B. Honestly, I would compare Fleury to Beaulieu today and I call Fleury a grade B piece. If we had Fleury back in 2012, I think people would of been just as high as they were on Beaulieu and Tinordi. Why? Cause we lacked quantity and any quality we had, we over valued.

 

[Kriss E]

I never had Scherbak, DLR, Mac as grade A assets. I had DLR and Mac as bottom 6 talent and Scherbak as a chance to be a middle 6F. You likely twisted any hope comments I said into me thinking they will be stars.

Don't get me wrong, I liked Beaulieu and Tinordi. Like I said, I had Beaulieu as the better guy but I wasn't raving about him. Fringe Grade A piece back when and Tinordi was grade B. Honestly, I would compare Fleury to Beaulieu today and I call Fleury a grade B piece. If we had Fleury back in 2012, I think people would of been just as high as they were on Beaulieu and Tinordi. Why? Cause we lacked quantity and any quality we had, we over valued.

Point is, you were happy with Bergevin not mortgaging the future by keeping them and you were preaching patience back then as well. Whatever grade you want to assign to them now changes nothing. You were wrong. We should have moved those guys when they had some value, just like Colberg had enough value to be the main piece of a TDL deal bringing us a terrific player in Vanek.

To be clear, this isn't just you. I remember when Avtsin was going to be the next potential star, Nygren and Dietz were promising, and who can forget Pavel the Tank?..The ''Louis Louis'' and ''Guy! Guy! Guy!'' chants? Those are forgotten?
Remember when the Habs were the Oh-so-clear winners of 2012 Draft. So many awesome kids selected, man, it was so great.
It has nothing to do with a lack of quantity, teams always have a bunch of kids in their ranks.

As I said, patience for the sake of patience is just as bad as making a move for the sake of moving. Both failing strategies.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Point is, you were happy with Bergevin not mortgaging the future by keeping them and you were preaching patience back then as well. Whatever grade you want to assign to them now changes nothing. You were wrong. We should have moved those guys when they had some value, just like Colberg had enough value to be the main piece of a TDL deal bringing us a terrific player in Vanek.

To be clear, this isn't just you. I remember when Avtsin was going to be the next potential star, Nygren and Dietz were promising, and who can forget Pavel the Tank?..The ''Louis Louis'' and ''Guy! Guy! Guy!'' chants? Those are forgotten?
Remember when the Habs were the Oh-so-clear winners of 2012 Draft. So many awesome kids selected, man, it was so great.
It has nothing to do with a lack of quantity, teams always have a bunch of kids in their ranks.

As I said, patience for the sake of patience is just as bad as making a move for the sake of moving. Both failing strategies.

I will preach patience more than aggression. This is true. Now is not the time to make all in moves mortgaging our future. Wait for the youth to prove themselves and we see what we got. Once we get inside the top 10, we then should make a move to be a top 5 cup contender. We might loose Weber with this patience which sucks but I'm not willing to jump all in on his window.

 

[Kriss E]

I will preach patience more than aggression. This is true. Now is not the time to make all in moves mortgaging our future. Wait for the youth to prove themselves and we see what we got. Once we get inside the top 10, we then should make a move to be a top 5 cup contender. We might loose Weber with this patience which sucks but I'm not willing to jump all in on his window.

And that's the problem...8 years down the road, still can't commit to a specific direction.
You need to wait to see what we have with the youngsters, you were telling the same thing 2-3 years ago when I was trying to make you understand whatever is coming up won't be better than what we currently had. You failed to give any credence to that and just repeated how we should ''wait and see''.
You're doing the same thing now, with different names.

Where you actually might have a point though is this time around, our team ain't got much. For that reason, we should be going in the other direction. We squandered an opportunity to do a slow proper rebuild when Bergevin took over. After 6 seasons and missing the POs 2 out of 3 years, people were ready to accept a proper rebuild once again..Bergey's answer to this is...''hmm...I want a reset, not a rebuild''.
He's on the verge of squandering this second chance at a rebuild.
If we're not going to be aggressive on the open market, then get rid of more vets and stock up. He should have done that this passed season.

Bergevin has been lost in this maze for years. Sometimes he takes the right path only to take the wrong one right after, constantly lost, no idea where to go.

 

[Habs Icing]

I understand your concerns with Mete as I have some of my own but he did play to top 4D quality with Weber after he came back from the AHL. There are things to like and dislike but overall, he had a solid season and I see him improving more and more.

Juulsen didn't struggle any more than any other top 4D that plays in this league as a young kid. He was our best D man behind Petry to start the year and before he got hurt and Weber came back.

You can be picky all you want and I get that but these two kids are definitely top 4D quality.

Juulsen had a serious problem with opposing players beating him wide. And it wasn't an occasional thing. It happened two or more times a game. If he doesn't correct that he'll be watching NHL games from the AHL.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Juulsen had a serious problem with opposing players beating him wide. And it wasn't an occasional thing. It happened two or more times a game. If he doesn't correct that he'll be watching NHL games from the AHL.

I disagree this was a serious problem. I did see Barzal do it but he has blazing speed and would also blow by Weber and Petry as well. Juulsen is very mobile and we disagree here.

If your concern was right, it would of showed up in his +/-. He was leading our team in hits and blocks and was our best D man behind Petry in the first 17 games of the year before he got hurt. He made Reilly look good for god sakes.

 

[Habs Icing]

I disagree this was a serious problem. I did see Barzal do it but he has blazing speed and would also blow by Weber and Petry as well. Juulsen is very mobile and we disagree here.

If your concern was right, it would of showed up in his +/-. He was leading our team in hits and blocks and was our best D man behind Petry in the first 17 games of the year before he got hurt. He made Reilly look good for god sakes.

I'm telling you Juulsen gets burnt on the outside by most opposing forwards and you reply that's not true he was leading the team in hits and blocks. Does this really make sense to you?

On the defensive side of the game for the most part I like Juulsen's game but his mobility is a serious problem. Add to that he hardly has an offensive game and you realize how his problem can be magnified. If he's going to be a defensive D-man he better be a damnn good one because his offense is nonexistent.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Juulsen had a serious problem with opposing players beating him wide. And it wasn't an occasional thing. It happened two or more times a game. If he doesn't correct that he'll be watching NHL games from the AHL.

I had observed the same thing, he would get walked at least once or twice every game. I was told this wasn't true though, my eyes were deceiving me and that I should defer to box scores and spreadsheets.

 

[Habs Icing]

I had observed the same thing, he would get walked at least once or twice every game. I was told this wasn't true though, my eyes were deceiving me and that I should defer to box scores and spreadsheets.

As you can see in the posts above yours I am being told the same thing.

And another thing, once the whole league clues into this problem they will be constantly exploiting it. Last year it didn't happen constantly because most teams weren't aware of it. Most NHL d-men can shut down a forward who would try that. Just like getting a book on a goalie once the league's video coaches catch it, we'll see most forwards flying past him.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I used to be a huge fan of TT and while I still feel like a lot of his work has been squandered over the years I think it might be time for a fresh set of eyes. I think he might do well as a GM, but I think there are younger/fresher ideas out there. For awhile, I thought he was the best in the business, it would be pretty hard to make that case now imo.

 

[Whitesnake]

And as far as development is concern, I always smile when I read how thank god, he didn't go through our ranks and that it's better for europeans to stay in Europe....Do people see what kids have to go through in Europe? People whine here about being called up too soon in the NHL and then have to be demoted in the AHL....don't people see what kids go through by playing in the SEL for example, but then not good enough, they are demoted in the Allsvenkan and then might go SuperElit Junior? All in 1 year? Or from KHL to VHL to MHL in Russia? From Liiga to Mestis to Juniors in Finland etc....Kids are used to be promoted and demoted in their country. But somehow in North America, a kid lose all of his confidence once demoted? Why? Unless he is being falsely promised something...I don't see why you can't completely negatively transform a kid from demoting at the start of his career. I mean, a guy like Pacioretty who we didn't think seemed to be the most committed, ASKED to be demoted to get his offensive game back......

I think that sometimes, I say sometimes, not ALL THE TIME, what we think is bad development is actually natural selection...prospect that can't handle demotion won't be able to handle much more so we know it in advance before we put too much money and effort on the kid....

Having said that, Yes I know and I keep saying it myself. Confidence is key. But confidence might have its limits. You need a good base to benefit from it.

 

[Runner77]

In Montreal, you don't need to NOT be in the bottom 10. You really need the best scouting staff or amongst the very best. Being content that he's not bottom 10 is not enough. Not for Montreal who can't attract UFA's.

The good news is that scouting expenditures don’t count against the cap and the Habs are a high revenue team. Are they using their advantage to the fullest?

 

[montreal]

You do if the team is going to be good. Kulak is also a top 4 dman on this team. That doesn't make him a top 4 dman.

It is too early, but it's underwhelming so far. I wasn't expecting a home run at 26, but I don't see how you can be thrilled with a bottom pairing dman in a great draft with many better players drafted not long after.

Timmins has failed with picks outside the top 10 from 2008-2015. People are still defending him which is insanity.

I never said Kulak was a top 4 D though, as there's a big difference between him and Mete, since Kulak will be 26 mid next season and has played only 38 more games then Mete in the NHL. I hate that Mete was rushed but the fact that he could even hold his own for parts of his age 19 and 20 seasons is impressive at least to me. Now I'm not saying that Kulak could be a late bloomer as I don't know him that well before the trade and wasn't overly impressed with him as he seems more of a bottom pairing D but I didn't pay a lot of attention to him.

We'll see what Juulsen does, I always liked him but never saw him as being a great 2nd pairing D but one that could be a decent one or a very good 3rd pairing D. It sucks they didn't pick Aho but missing out on a better player doesn't make Juulsen a bad pick as long as he's a solid NHLer, which we'll have to wait and see.

I've certainly had to adjust my thoughts on Timmins overall as he clearly has made a number of mistakes but I think in context he's not doing a bad job based on a number of reasons which have been beaten to death here. We'll see what happens, but I'm guessing until we have a new GM, we won't see much change in the staff.

That said there are things I don't like, I don't get why they haven't made changes to their scouts as they have been terrible in drafting from Sweden and the Q yet nothing seems to have changed. With the talent that Sweden has churned out I just don't get how we can be so bad there and still have the same scout. I am glad that we seem to do much better in Finland or so it's looking and that is clearly a market on the rise of late.

 

[Runner77]

Pool is not even worth a high 2nd...

In hindsight, certainly. Leblanc in particular was the type of nightmare that happens when a team lets crowd chants and media pressure influence a draft pick.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

In hindsight, certainly. Leblanc in particular was the type of nightmare that happens when a team lets crowd chants and media pressure influence a draft pick.

leblanc was a 100%bust at draft day llooooll

 

[Habs]

Well that's certainly not the trade I would have done - but I don't think it's the disaster a lot of people seem to think it is.

That trade is still a wash for me.

But also a wasted opportunity to reshape your franchise - since like you, I would have looked at a different type of trade if I was deadset on moving PK.


We were complaining about that well before Bergevin's arrival, so i'm not sure I agree with you that the PK trade signaled the beginning of the downward spiral into mediocrity.



The Boston Bruins have had their fare share of draft misses as well...they are where they are for a multitude of reasons, not just drafting.

But I get what you're saying.

The Bruins are fairly deep in prospects, and the young kids they have are legit. They did it right. Every team makes drafting mistakes, I'm ok with that, but you have to hit a homerun now and then.

 

[Runner77]

The Bruins are fairly deep in prospects, and the young kids they have are legit. They did it right. Every team makes drafting mistakes, I'm ok with that, but you have to hit a homerun now and then.

Especially that spending on scouting is a non-cap expense, I never understood how the Habs have not been more aggressive in poaching and overpaying the best scouts.

 

[Habs]

Especially that spending on scouting is a non-cap expense, I never understood how the Habs have not been more aggressive in poaching and overpaying the best scouts.

Its mind boggling, right? How do you not have enormous resources into scouting.

 

[Runner77]

Its mind boggling, right? How do you not have enormous resources into scouting.

Habs are the third highest valued team: Forbes Releases 20th Annual List of NHL Team Valuations

They should be flexing some muscles beyond the ones their management people are flashing when interviewing prospects.