Trevor Timmins Discussion Part III

[Andrei79]

Or maybe TT was lucky that his best years were during the greatest period of drafting in the NHL possibly EVER?

03-08 will go down as a historic period for drafting. It build 3 dynasties in CHI/LA/PENS and led to WASH cup.

Produced multiple generational talents and HOF players.

It was essentially shooting fish in a barrel and I think almost every team managed to get a PK/Price/Max level player during those years.

Can you back up your claim that 2003-2008 was historic ? Or, do you mean that 2003 was historic ?

I get that the 1st/2nd OAs were incredible in that period of time but that doesn't speak at all to the strength of the draft and even less to what was actually available at the spots Timmins picked. An example would be 2003 vs 2004.

I'm pretty sure that from 2004-2008, it wasn't shooting fish in a barrel and getting Price/Pk/McDonagh/Pacioretty at the spots he got them was significantly better than the vast majority of teams.

If your point was Timmins/Savard dropped the ball in '03, then I'd agree.

 

[scrubadam]

Can you back up your claim that 2003-2008 was historic ? Or, do you mean that 2003 was historic ?

I get that the 1st/2nd OAs were incredible in that period of time but that doesn't speak at all to the strength of the draft and even less to what was actually available at the spots Timmins picked. An example would be 2003 vs 2004.

I'm pretty sure that from 2004-2008, it wasn't shooting fish in a barrel and getting Price/Pk/McDonagh/Pacioretty at the spots he got them was significantly better than the vast majority of teams.

If your point was Timmins/Savard dropped the ball in '03, then I'd agree.

03 and 05 were killer drafts. 04 was damn good, 07 and 08 as well. Kane/Towes/Crosby/Daughty/Malkin/Carter/Richards/Stamkos etc... Look at the players taken in those drafts, it was an insane run. Pens/Chi/LA were essentially built from those drafts.

I personally believe that 03-08 will go down in NHL history of one of the greatest periods of talent entering the league.

 

[Andrei79]

03 and 05 were killer drafts. 04 was damn good, 07 and 08 as well. Kane/Towes/Crosby/Daughty/Malkin/Carter/Richards/Stamkos etc... Look at the players taken in those drafts, it was an insane run. Pens/Chi/LA were essentially built from those drafts.

I personally believe that 03-08 will go down in NHL history of one of the greatest periods of talent entering the league.

You're not helping your point here.

You're citing 1st/2nd overall picks with 2 guys from 2003.

Were Kane/Toews/Crosby/Doughty/Malkin/Stamkos available to most teams at the draft ? Or even a significant minority (>25%) ? No. So why do you cite them when you're telling us those drafts were like "shooting fish in a barrel".

How were 2004, 2005, 2007, 2008 good ? All of them had a high number of busts picked high.

Here are the significant top 2 round selections from those drafts. Parentheses for players that weren't even available to us.
2004: (Ladd, Wheeler, Radulov), Zajac, Schneider, Green, Dubinsky.
2005: Price, Kopitar, Staal, Hanzal, Rask, Neal, Vlasic, Stastny.
2007: (Turris, Voracek, Couture), McDonagh, Shattenkirk, Pacioretty, Perron, Subban, Simmonds
2008: (Pietrangelo, Myers, Karlsson, Carlson, Voynov, Josi, Schultz, Scandella)

Compare that to 03:
Horton, Vanek, Michalek, Suter, Coburn, Phaneuf, Carter, Brown, Seabrook, Parise, Getzlaf, Burns, Kesler, Richards, Perry, Eriksson, Bergeron, Weber, Crawford, Backes.

I don't see it at all. 2003 stands out as the only historic draft out of that group. 2012 is widely considered a weak draft, yet its 1st round past the top 3 compares favorably to those years.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Or maybe TT was lucky that his best years were during the greatest period of drafting in the NHL possibly EVER?

03-08 will go down as a historic period for drafting. It build 3 dynasties in CHI/LA/PENS and led to WASH cup.

Produced multiple generational talents and HOF players.

It was essentially shooting fish in a barrel and I think almost every team managed to get a PK/Price/Max level player during those years.

Right now I'm doing an exhaustive data sheet showing the quality of picks vs draftees in the 2003-2015 span and I can tell you for a fact that you are completely off.

Without top 3 picks, only a handful of teams were able to draft quality picks like Subban, Price, Max, Streit, Halak, McDonaugh, AKost, Latendresse, Gabrovski, Emelin, SKost and Weber in the 03-08 period.

To me, this gives me a clear view of your bias. You were always ready to defend the undefendable with Bergevin. I always found it incredibly odd how you do the complete opposite with Timmins who has a much better track record.

If I were you, I'd hold off making anymore uninformed sweaping statement like the bolded one before I post the data.





@Whitesnake, as I said yesterday, it's ridiculous to count the bad picks. It's almost as if you didnt browse other team's equally ridiculous pick. 95% have made equally head scratching picks. Why? Because it's not an exact science.

You don't calculate the misses to see someone's yeild. You compare the yeilds and that 03-08 period, Habs had one of the top 5 yeild, while being mid-pack to 20th for quality of drafting position.

 

[scrubadam]

You're not helping your point here.

You're citing 1st/2nd overall picks with 2 guys from 2003.

Were Kane/Toews/Crosby/Doughty/Malkin/Stamkos available to most teams at the draft ? Or even a significant minority (>25%) ? No. So why do you cite them when you're telling us those drafts were like "shooting fish in a barrel".

The top of the draft was WAY better than the years after it. Only in 14/15 are we getting close. But yes top end talent in those drafts was HOF level, dynasty building level. Take EDMS 4 years of tank before Matthews, and replace it with Pens 03/04/05 draft and Oilers probably have 3 cups to their name.

03-08 top draft was historic and an amazing run

How were 2004, 2005, 2007, 2008 good ? All of them had a high number of busts picked high.

Here are the significant top 2 round selections from those drafts. Parentheses for players that weren't even available to us.
2004: (Ladd, Wheeler, Radulov), Zajac, Schneider, Green, Dubinsky.
2005: Price, Kopitar, Staal, Hanzal, Rask, Neal, Vlasic, Stastny.
2007: (Turris, Voracek, Couture), McDonagh, Shattenkirk, Pacioretty, Perron, Subban, Simmonds
2008: (Pietrangelo, Myers, Karlsson, Carlson, Voynov, Josi, Schultz, Scandella)

Compare that to 03:
Horton, Vanek, Michalek, Suter, Coburn, Phaneuf, Carter, Brown, Seabrook, Parise, Getzlaf, Burns, Kesler, Richards, Perry, Eriksson, Bergeron, Weber, Crawford, Backes.

I don't see it at all. 2003 stands out as the only historic draft out of that group. 2012 is widely considered a weak draft, yet its 1st round past the top 3 compares favorably to those years.

Not sure your point? Look at all that talent from 03-08. Look at all those good players you listed. 03-08 had amazing talent. I don't know what was in the water 18 years earlier but it produced some amazing hockey talent.

The top end talent was generational during that time frame, and the rest of the drafts had amazing talent as well. Does 09-13 really compare to the quality we are saw from 03-08.

We will just have to agree to disagree but IMO 03-08 was so talent rich that it built 3 dynasties in PENS/CHI/LA.

 

[scrubadam]

You're not helping your point here.

You're citing 1st/2nd overall picks with 2 guys from 2003.

Were Kane/Toews/Crosby/Doughty/Malkin/Stamkos available to most teams at the draft ? Or even a significant minority (>25%) ? No. So why do you cite them when you're telling us those drafts were like "shooting fish in a barrel".

How were 2004, 2005, 2007, 2008 good ? All of them had a high number of busts picked high.

Here are the significant top 2 round selections from those drafts. Parentheses for players that weren't even available to us.
2004: (Ladd, Wheeler, Radulov), Zajac, Schneider, Green, Dubinsky.
2005: Price, Kopitar, Staal, Hanzal, Rask, Neal, Vlasic, Stastny.
2007: (Turris, Voracek, Couture), McDonagh, Shattenkirk, Pacioretty, Perron, Subban, Simmonds
2008: (Pietrangelo, Myers, Karlsson, Carlson, Voynov, Josi, Schultz, Scandella)

Compare that to 03:
Horton, Vanek, Michalek, Suter, Coburn, Phaneuf, Carter, Brown, Seabrook, Parise, Getzlaf, Burns, Kesler, Richards, Perry, Eriksson, Bergeron, Weber, Crawford, Backes.

I don't see it at all. 2003 stands out as the only historic draft out of that group. 2012 is widely considered a weak draft, yet its 1st round past the top 3 compares favorably to those years.

 

[scrubadam]

Right now I'm doing an exhaustive data sheet showing the quality of picks vs draftees in the 2003-2015 span and I can tell you for a fact that you are completely off.

Without top 3 picks, only a handful of teams were able to draft quality picks like Subban, Price, Max, Streit, Halak, McDonaugh, AKost, Latendresse, Gabrovski, Emelin, SKost and Weber in the 03-08 period.

To me, this gives me a clear view of your bias. You were always ready to defend the undefendable with Bergevin. I always found it incredibly odd how you do the complete opposite with Timmins who has a much better track record.

If I were you, I'd hold off making anymore uninformed sweaping statement like the bolded one before I post the data.





@Whitesnake, as I said yesterday, it's ridiculous to count the bad picks. It's almost as if you didnt browse other team's equally ridiculous pick. 95% have made equally head scratching picks. Why? Because it's not an exact science.

You don't calculate the misses to see someone's yeild. You compare the yeilds and that 03-08 period, Habs had one of the top 5 yeild, while being mid-pack to 20th for quality of drafting position.

I look forward to your results, but to me 03-08 had amazing talent in it. Top end was generational, and throughout the drafts there were other amazing players taken (as evidence by habs getting PK in round 2 and Max as a late 1st).

But if your data shows more HOF/Generational players before and after then so be it.

Also not sure what this has to do with MB. I am strictly saying 03-08 was amazing for talent. I think most people would say 03 was a historic draft, and 05 was right behind it.

Notice how the tankers did a lot better from 03-08 than those afterwards?

 

[groovejuice]

McCarron is officially a bust by being put on waivers, he is virtually offered to every team for nothing in return, not even worth a 7th rounder at this point. Timmins visibly did not accurately grasp the speed/skill trend at that point in time.

I'm not certain that Bergevin didn't ask for some size before that draft. Habs got ragdolled by the Sens in the POs.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I don't get this. What changes before and after? Big before skills? McCarron type of pick? What is Tinordi? Connor Crisp type of pick? What is Steve Quailer? Mindboggling type of pick like Nikolas Koberstein? Well...when we drafted Jason Missiaen, that towering 6'7'' goalie, we were told that he was a big long time project. We let him go after 2 years.....What changes really? People keep saying that we should stop taking exceptions and make it the norm.....well the year that everybody takes to prove how great Timmins was BEFORE Bergevin IS an exception. 2007 rarely or never happens. But somehow it has to be the proof that it worked better before Bergevin?

Don't do this Whitesnake, you know when posters have a vote of confidence in TT they are looking at his whole body of work. He was well above average long before 2007.

GM after GM has squandered the work done by TT, so much so, that I just would have named him GM too. Many of these picks in the MB era are completely anti-Timmins.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

Don't do this Whitesnake, you know when posters have a vote of confidence in TT they are looking at his whole body of work. He was well above average long before 2007.

GM after GM has squandered the work done by TT, so much so, that I just would have named him GM too. Many of these picks in the MB era are completely anti-Timmins.

Would you say, that with his name on the board that he's ultimately responsible for these picks even if his boss has been superseding his authority?

I find that hard to believe to be honest.

 

[Andrei79]

The top of the draft was WAY better than the years after it. Only in 14/15 are we getting close. But yes top end talent in those drafts was HOF level, dynasty building level. Take EDMS 4 years of tank before Matthews, and replace it with Pens 03/04/05 draft and Oilers probably have 3 cups to their name.

03-08 top draft was historic and an amazing run



Not sure your point? Look at all that talent from 03-08. Look at all those good players you listed. 03-08 had amazing talent. I don't know what was in the water 18 years earlier but it produced some amazing hockey talent.

The top end talent was generational during that time frame, and the rest of the drafts had amazing talent as well. Does 09-13 really compare to the quality we are saw from 03-08.

We will just have to agree to disagree but IMO 03-08 was so talent rich that it built 3 dynasties in PENS/CHI/LA.

It's assinine to include 1st and 2nd overalls in the discussion here. Repeating that those three teams built their cup winners on the backs of them makes it no less irrelevant in the discussion at hand.

Neither does adding 2003 to that period of time. There was one draft that was historic, it was 2003. We agree that Timmins dropped the ball there.

Now, let's actually discuss what we we're talking about: that in the years Timmins drafted well, it was like "shooting fish in a barrel". This is demonstrably false, especially where he was picking. And yes, 09-13 has comparable, and some years better, top 60 picks vs 2004-2008, 1st/2nd OAs notwithstanding.

 

[habsfan92]

TT's work squandered, that's funny. So many teams trying to get his services-not likely. This year, TT says that the scouting staff was focusing on talent. Here's me .....WHATTTT???? Your scouts didn't look at talent before? Hmm, maybe that's why the system has been so weak. I wouldn't point the finger at MB & say TT, not your fault. Different scouts like different things about players. He tells his scouts what to look for, then they get together and discuss & rank them. MB doen's rank them. Always thought TT had a great eye for 3-4 liners. Still does. What has he really shown to be considered as a potential GM? TT gets a little too much credit sometimes.

 

[Mrb1p]

McCarron is officially a bust by being put on waivers, he is virtually offered to every team for nothing in return, not even worth a 7th rounder at this point. Timmins visibly did not accurately grasp the speed/skill trend at that point in time.

Timmins did, timmins did not...

Weird how well he was tracking while steaming through the CHL... I really wonder what happened.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

TT's work squandered, that's funny. So many teams trying to get his services-not likely. This year, TT says that the scouting staff was focusing on talent. Here's me .....WHATTTT???? Your scouts didn't look at talent before? Hmm, maybe that's why the system has been so weak. I wouldn't point the finger at MB & say TT, not your fault. Different scouts like different things about players. He tells his scouts what to look for, then they get together and discuss & rank them. MB doen's rank them. Always thought TT had a great eye for 3-4 liners. Still does. What has he really shown to be considered as a potential GM? TT gets a little too much credit sometimes.

Yeah I don't understand why the media didn't further question those incredibly off-putting quotes. What the hell was he looking for before?

 

[BehindTheTimes]

TT's work squandered, that's funny. So many teams trying to get his services-not likely. This year, TT says that the scouting staff was focusing on talent. Here's me .....WHATTTT???? Your scouts didn't look at talent before? Hmm, maybe that's why the system has been so weak. I wouldn't point the finger at MB & say TT, not your fault. Different scouts like different things about players. He tells his scouts what to look for, then they get together and discuss & rank them. MB doen's rank them. Always thought TT had a great eye for 3-4 liners. Still does. What has he really shown to be considered as a potential GM? TT gets a little too much credit sometimes.

If Timmins were fired today, he'd be highly sought after and have multiple offers the same day IMO.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Yeah I don't understand why the media didn't further question those incredibly off-putting quotes. What the hell was he looking for before?

What his GM was looking for.

TT has made those recent comments as ASSISTANT GM. The philosophy seems to have been changing ever since he's had a bigger say. That gives credence to what many of us are/were saying. It is also put into better light when we read MB's comments at tge recent draft. Timmins is COMPLETELY in charge of the draft now. As of 2017 when he was named AGM, there's no more excuses for him as he now seems to have free reign. And as of now, it seems to be working very well as our last 2 1st round picks seem to be strong picks, no matter the draft position and for the later rounds too.

 

[scrubadam]

It's assinine to include 1st and 2nd overalls in the discussion here. Repeating that those three teams built their cup winners on the backs of them makes it no less irrelevant in the discussion at hand.

Neither does adding 2003 to that period of time. There was one draft that was historic, it was 2003. We agree that Timmins dropped the ball there.

Now, let's actually discuss what we we're talking about: that in the years Timmins drafted well, it was like "shooting fish in a barrel". This is demonstrably false, especially where he was picking. And yes, 09-13 has comparable, and some years better, top 60 picks vs 2004-2008, 1st/2nd OAs notwithstanding.

I see the hold up here, you think its attack on TT. This is just my opinion that 03-08 saw some of the best talent enter the NHL.

And I don't think there is anything wrong with comparing top picks. Would you rather have a Crosby or a Yakupov? A Kane or a Hall? A Towes or a Ryan Murray? a Malkin or a Galchenyuk? Look how many generational talents and HOFers the top of those drafts produced. And the fact that 3 dynasties were built of those drafts is actually pretty important. Oilers/Buf/FLA didn't build dynasties after drafting at the top after 08. Thats how good and elite the talent was that the tankers managed to practically win all the cops since then.

Anyways I don't think its a controversial or even disputable statement that 03-08 were some of the best drafting years.

And the shooting fish in a barrel wasn't just for TT, it was for all the teams. Lots of teams benefited from the great draft, Flyers, Ducks, Habs, Sens, Pens, Washington. It was shooting fish in a barrel for ALL TEAMS AND SCOUTS. There was such an abundance of talent available.

 

[1909]

I don't get this. What changes before and after? Big before skills? McCarron type of pick? What is Tinordi? Connor Crisp type of pick? What is Steve Quailer? Mindboggling type of pick like Nikolas Koberstein? Well...when we drafted Jason Missiaen, that towering 6'7'' goalie, we were told that he was a big long time project. We let him go after 2 years.....What changes really? People keep saying that we should stop taking exceptions and make it the norm.....well the year that everybody takes to prove how great Timmins was BEFORE Bergevin IS an exception. 2007 rarely or never happens. But somehow it has to be the proof that it worked better before Bergevin?

And you could have add Nattinen, Avstin, Dietz, Wahlford, Fucale, Thrower.

I have nighmares about Kostitsyn and Urqhuart.

 

[Andrei79]

I see the hold up here, you think its attack on TT. This is just my opinion that 03-08 saw some of the best talent enter the NHL.

And I don't think there is anything wrong with comparing top picks. Would you rather have a Crosby or a Yakupov? A Kane or a Hall? A Towes or a Ryan Murray? a Malkin or a Galchenyuk? Look how many generational talents and HOFers the top of those drafts produced. And the fact that 3 dynasties were built of those drafts is actually pretty important. Oilers/Buf/FLA didn't build dynasties after drafting at the top after 08. Thats how good and elite the talent was that the tankers managed to practically win all the cops since then.

Anyways I don't think its a controversial or even disputable statement that 03-08 were some of the best drafting years.

And the shooting fish in a barrel wasn't just for TT, it was for all the teams. Lots of teams benefited from the great draft, Flyers, Ducks, Habs, Sens, Pens, Washington. It was shooting fish in a barrel for ALL TEAMS AND SCOUTS. There was such an abundance of talent available.

"Or maybe TT was lucky that his best years were during the greatest period of drafting in the NHL possibly EVER?"

This is a thread about Timmins and this is literally what you wrote.

Notice that I've said recently that I feel a change would be good.

But, if we're talking about what Timmins did bad and what he did good, we should appreciate both in the context of the drafts where he was either good/bad.

Here, you claim that the Timmins' successes came from the greatest period of drafting ever, a period you also claim was like "shooting fish in a barrel".

You've yet to actually support your statements in any way. You bring up Crosby, Toews, Malkin, Kane... ok so how does that have any influence on how Timmins drafted. The depth of a draft and the quality of the first 2 or 3 picks are two different things.

2003 had quality and depth. It was a historic year.

2004 to 2008 weren't. None of those drafts (2004-2008) were like "shooting fish in a barrel". It's demonstrably false, stop repeating that crap. The depth was the around the same/often lower than the later years you then cited.

2008 Timmins didn't even draft a single NHL player, how could he have benefited from it ? After Kristo, none of the 2nd round players even amounted to anything significant.

If you want to talk about how Timmins missed 2003 and how it's a taint to his early record, that's a whole different matter and one where you'd be right. Had he hit on his 1st and 2nd round picks in 2003 when you had a better chance at a franchise player than a bust, we'd have had the core with the 04-07 drafts to compete for a cup.

 

[Sorinth]

I do think there might be some credence to this. At least relative to his competition. I do think Timmins was the absolute best for a few years, but I think many have gottne better/improved and closed the gap a bit. I kind of agree with Ozy though, just comparing Timmins work to his own body of work shows something seems to have changed during MB era, I think someone might have had his hands in places where they don't belong.

Everyone always praised MB for talent analysis and him being a rink rat like Dudley. I think he may have micro-managed TT a bit too much believing what he heard people say about him (big ego). That, and do we really know who is 100% behind the draft? Is it still TT, the roles/titles are a bit confusing now with SC having the "Director of Amateur Scouting" title.

One big change was Timmins stopped being in charge of development. Maybe the secret to Timmins' success wasn't so much great drafting but great development.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

One big change was Timmins was he stopped being in charge of development. Maybe the secret to Timmins' success wasn't so much great drafting but great development.

Could be.

 

[scrubadam]

"Or maybe TT was lucky that his best years were during the greatest period of drafting in the NHL possibly EVER?"

This is a thread about Timmins and this is literally what you wrote.

Notice that I've said recently that I feel a change would be good.

But, if we're talking about what Timmins did bad and what he did good, we should appreciate both in the context of the drafts where he was either good/bad.

Here, you claim that the Timmins' successes came from the greatest period of drafting ever, a period you also claim was like "shooting fish in a barrel".

You've yet to actually support your statements in any way. You bring up Crosby, Toews, Malkin, Kane... ok so how does that have any influence on how Timmins drafted. The depth of a draft and the quality of the first 2 or 3 picks are two different things.

2003 had quality and depth. It was a historic year.

2004 to 2008 weren't. None of those drafts (2004-2008) were like "shooting fish in a barrel". It's demonstrably false, stop repeating that crap. The depth was the around the same/often lower than the later years you then cited.

2008 Timmins didn't even draft a single NHL player, how could he have benefited from it ? After Kristo, none of the 2nd round players even amounted to anything significant.

If you want to talk about how Timmins missed 2003 and how it's a taint to his early record, that's a whole different matter and one where you'd be right. Had he hit on his 1st and 2nd round picks in 2003 when you had a better chance at a franchise player than a bust, we'd have had the core with the 04-07 drafts to compete for a cup.

He benifited like all the other scouts and GM's because there was so much talent available. Even if he was drafting not at the top outside of 03 and 05.

Since 07 Timmins drafting hasn't been as good, because the talent influx wasn't as good either.

I am not going to break it down by draft, from 03-08 I think we saw some of the best talent entering the league. I don' think thats really disputable. With so much great talent all the teams benefited from it.

Look at a team like the flyers, the got carter/richards/giroux from that period
Anaheim got Getz and Perry, LA got Qucik,Kopi, Doughty, Nash got Suter, Weber , RAdu, and Josi. Wash got Ovie, Green, Carlson, Holtby

There were a lot of great talents, the teams that drafted the best (and usually highest) ended up winning cups or building dominate teams.

 

[groovejuice]

Timmins did, timmins did not...

Weird how well he was tracking while steaming through the CHL... I really wonder what happened.

This is definitely not an exception over the dark years since Bergevin took over and hired Lefebvre. The man himself proudly admitted that development was never part of his focus. Bergevin should be fired for this alone.

 

[Whitesnake]

Don't do this Whitesnake, you know when posters have a vote of confidence in TT they are looking at his whole body of work. He was well above average long before 2007.

GM after GM has squandered the work done by TT, so much so, that I just would have named him GM too. Many of these picks in the MB era are completely anti-Timmins.

Okay, so are we talking about his overall body of work? Or pick by pick? Yeah, I will do this, if you don't mind. You are talking about how some picks are anti-Timmins. Which ones? Which picks did he made that he didn't make before Bergevin? You are just talking about 2 different things here. You are talking about his overall body of work, from before Bergevin to after Bergevin. Okay, so you are now comparing 03 to 11 compared to 12 to...what? Do you know how 17 18 will end up being? If you can't, even if you have a great idea, you can only compare Bergevin's draft from 12 to 16. And you can't even put Bitten in there 'cause we don't know how he will turn out to be. So you are comparing 03 to 11, eras that are done and over with that we can actually really compare....with 12 to 15. How fair is that? Geez...you can't even put 15 in there...how is Juulsen and Addison be at soon? What is their potential. So you are comparing 12 to 14? Geez, not even sure you can do that, while Scherbak takes a long time...is he a bust already? And how about Evans?

So you actually CANNOT talk about his overall body of work before and after Bergevin 'cause we don't know about the after Bergevin. So you really are talking about picks by picks, and if you are, I told that for a McCarron, there is a Tinordi. For a Crisp, there is a Qualier. For a Koberstein, there is a Missiaen (type of picks that made NO sense) etc.

 

[montreal]

One big change was Timmins stopped being in charge of development. Maybe the secret to Timmins' success wasn't so much great drafting but great development.

It was Timmins that was behind Guy Boucher getting the AHL coaching job, who knows what would have happened had he just agreed to stay beyond the 1 year although I thought the Randy's did a good job but listening to Boucher talk hockey was great.