Trevor Timmins Discussion Part III

[yianik]

Created a new Timmins thread since the old one was locked.

To be fair, only 2 players selected in that second round have not busted yet... Martin Frk selected 49th overall, who is a marginal NHLer and Damon Severson, picked 60th OV, who is a decent second pairing defenseman... so you cant really blame Timmins here who went for the most skilled player at that point... that draft was easily one of the worst ever...

Yes, I 2nd that. I mean TT has to get a top and bottom 6 guy every draft, on average, so most of the picks you expect to be a miss. For me and many here we have gotten annoyed when TT has taken basically grinders with picks. Take the talent. Colberg was a talented guy it seemed, thats the guy you take. He didnt work out. Okay, but it was still a good pick.

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[John B]

I love how being compared to DLR is spoken of as if it is a bad thing. DLR is an NHL center. Very young.

To get that in the 2nd round is never a guarantee. Actually look at Lehkonen and DLR out of their 2nd round class and they are two of the better choices.

If Olofsson can be as good as DLR, if not better than it is a good pick. I don't understand the DLR hate I like his game. He plays a simple game but can skate well for a man his size and actually showed some offensive upside when given the opportunity with Galchenyuk last season.

I agree. I think Olofsson will be a bit better than DLR if the Habs allow him to develop properly. DLR was mishandled throughout his development IMO.

 

[jaffy27]

I agree. I think Olofsson will be a bit better than DLR if the Habs allow him to develop properly. DLR was mishandled throughout his development IMO.

Mishandled how.....what part of his game did they forever banish that he had coming??

 

[Mrb1p]

Mishandled how.....what part of his game did they forever banish that he had coming??

They rushed him to the NHL, instead of letting him floorish in the AHL, anytime he started doing great offensively, they brought him up instead of letting him get better in the AHL.

 

[jaffy27]

They rushed him to the NHL, instead of letting him floorish in the AHL, anytime he started doing great offensively, they brought him up instead of letting him get better in the AHL.

I respectfully disagree.....he never had an offensive game and never will

 

[Mrb1p]

I respectfully disagree.....he never had an offensive game and never will

31 points in the AHL after not posting any points early ? He was on a roll with and they called him up instead of making him play th ehwole year once he got confortable, all for him to play 4th line or to be in the press box.

 

[jaffy27]

31 points in the AHL after not posting any points early ? He was on a roll with and they called him up instead of making him play th ehwole year once he got confortable, all for him to play 4th line or to be in the press box.

Some players can put up great AHL numbers but poor nhl ones.....in my opinion, he is exactly that.

He may put up 20-25pts in the nhl but that’s about it. He is a 4th line centre who can easily slit in the 3 hole and sporadically fill in top 6 for very short stints

 

[John B]

Mishandled how.....what part of his game did they forever banish that he had coming??

Basically what Mrb1p said. I don't believe in rushing prospects. Let them flourish at the appropriate level before moving them up to the next level. I think if the Habs leave Olfosson in Sweden for a couple seasons (provided his development is going well) before bringing him over to Laval for a season or two would be good for him.

 

[jaffy27]

Basically what Mrb1p said. I don't believe in rushing prospects. Let them flourish at the appropriate level before moving them up to the next level. I think if the Habs leave Olfosson in Sweden for a couple seasons (provided his development is going well) before bringing him over to Laval for a season or two would be good for him.

So if DLR had stayed in AHL, he’d be a......(insert answer)

 

[WeThreeKings]

So if DLR had stayed in AHL, he’d be a......(insert answer)

A bottom 6 player who can chip in 30ish pts. Versus a rotational player who sucks offense out of everyone.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

They rushed him to the NHL, instead of letting him floorish in the AHL, anytime he started doing great offensively, they brought him up instead of letting him get better in the AHL.

they only did that to DLR EVERY time he started going on a roll. So frustrating. No idea why they rushed him. Don't think there was a TON of upside there but I do think he has some hidden potential. He keeps improving so he's not a lost cause by any means. Really speaks to DLR that we did everything to mess him up and he just won't bust. Looking forward to seeing what he can do this year

 

[jaffy27]

A bottom 6 player who can chip in 30ish pts. Versus a rotational player who sucks offense out of everyone.

You talking about Plekanec again aren’t you

 

[montreal]

I respectfully disagree.....he never had an offensive game and never will

what did you think of his offensive game when you watched him in the SHL? Did you agree with how he was used in Hamilton as a 19 year old, what did you think of his game when watching with the Bulldogs? How many games did you see of him at 18, 19, before he hit the NHL?

 

[yianik]

Well with Poehling in 2017 and then Kotkaniemi in 2018 the habs finally have strentgh at the position. Along with other kids such as Olaffsson one can hope they all become top 6 centers and finally give Montreal abundance at the position.

It's pretty much pure stats that I am throwing out and on the one hand that is correct because every player every team picks you hope will make it and in the first few rounds you have a lot of good kids. But we know that most don't make it and especially as top 6.

But at least now we have actually used high picks to draft centres. Have to start with that. It now depends on whether TT and his crew did their job and on development. Like I have said, throw whatever money is needed to help these kids train and especially skating pros.

We are one of the richest teams in the league. There is no excuse to not have one of if not the best development program out there.

 

[jaffy27]

what did you think of his offensive game when you watched him in the SHL? Did you agree with how he was used in Hamilton as a 19 year old, what did you think of his game when watching with the Bulldogs? How many games did you see of him at 18, 19, before he hit the NHL?

I’d say about 15 games total.....and from what I watched he did not strike me as an offensive threat, like ever.

Then there’s the few dozen nhl hockey games

....even Vegas had a chance to select him in the expansion draft and decided to turn away and select overpaid older emelin.

In the under 20 WJC he was not used in a offensive role, same with AHL or NHL....my guess is the Canadiens see him in the same light that I do....a player that can occasionally chip in offensively but that’s best suited for a 3rd line role and a 4th line role on a really good team.

I like the player, just not as much as some here.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

A bottom 6 player who can chip in 30ish pts. Versus a rotational player who sucks offense out of everyone.

DLR is going to be the former as soon as this season.

 

[yianik]

I’d say about 15 games total.....and from what I watched he did not strike me as an offensive threat, like ever.

Then there’s the few dozen nhl hockey games

....even Vegas had a chance to select him in the expansion draft and decided to turn away and select overpaid older emelin.

In the under 20 WJC he was not used in a offensive role, same with AHL or NHL....my guess is the Canadiens see him in the same light that I do....a player that can occasionally chip in offensively but that’s best suited for a 3rd line role and a 4th line role on a really good team.

I like the player, just not as much as some here.

I guess the point is that we have to be bang on at how we develop our guys.

And there is no question that DLR and Big Mac were brought up a few times after they started connecting in the AHL and came up here and...thud. Then sent back down and they were ice cold.

Contrast to Hudon who was inexplicably in the A for 3 years of success with hardly a sniff. Likely Hudon could have been brought up a year before this, but does it look like it hurt him ? No. Not at all.

Nobody is saying DLR could have been a big scorer if not for that. Or Big Mac for that matter. But bringing them up aftet some short term success clearly did not help them. Clearly did not help their development.

 

[jaffy27]

I guess the point is that we have to be bang on at how we develop our guys.

And there is no question that DLR and Big Mac were brought up a few times after they started connecting in the AHL and came up here and...thud. Then sent back down and they were ice cold.

Contrast to Hudon who was inexplicably in the A for 3 years of success with hardly a sniff. Likely Hudon could have been brought up a year before this, but does it look like it hurt him ? No. Not at all.

Nobody is saying DLR could have been a big scorer if not for that. Or Big Mac for that matter. But bringing them up aftet some short term success clearly did not help them. Clearly did not help their development.

McCarron in my opinion was mishandled, but I don’t believe it’s the bring him up send him down routine, it’s the role they gave him....anyways, it’s just an opinion, who knows who’s right.

 

[jaffy27]

I guess the point is that we have to be bang on at how we develop our guys.

And there is no question that DLR and Big Mac were brought up a few times after they started connecting in the AHL and came up here and...thud. Then sent back down and they were ice cold.

Contrast to Hudon who was inexplicably in the A for 3 years of success with hardly a sniff. Likely Hudon could have been brought up a year before this, but does it look like it hurt him ? No. Not at all.

Nobody is saying DLR could have been a big scorer if not for that. Or Big Mac for that matter. But bringing them up aftet some short term success clearly did not help them. Clearly did not help their development.

It worked with Subban, and Gallagher.....some players played many games in the AHL like Beaulieu and never figured it out. There’s no exact formula, every case is different.

 

[yianik]

McCarron in my opinion was mishandled, but I don’t believe it’s the bring him up send him down routine, it’s the role they gave him....anyways, it’s just an opinion, who knows who’s right.

It worked with Subban, and Gallagher.....some players played many games in the AHL like Beaulieu and never figured it out. There’s no exact formula, every case is different.

I think you are bang on about Big Mac being mishandled. Among other things the pep talk Sly giving him about not making the NHL as a point producer and next thing the guy is fighting and trying to be all physical. But in any event.

Gallagher had a short stint in the AHL, did well and carried that into the NHL where he put up really good numbers. PK spent almost a season in the AHL before being brought up and he smoked that league.

DLR spent equal time at each level in 14-15. Didn't do anything in either. In 15-16 He played just over 30 in the A and 22 with the Habs. Did zilch. 2016-17 was the most time he had spent in the AHL.

Both PK and Gallagher had success in the AHL before being brought up and they hit hot when they came in. That wasn't DLR and Big Mac. DLR spent a ton of time just twiddling his thumbs with us. Should have been down getting minutes with good players.

 

[jaffy27]

I think you are bang on about Big Mac being mishandled. Among other things the pep talk Sly giving him about not making the NHL as a point producer and next thing the guy is fighting and trying to be all physical. But in any event.

Gallagher had a short stint in the AHL, did well and carried that into the NHL where he put up really good numbers. PK spent almost a season in the AHL before being brought up and he smoked that league.

DLR spent equal time at each level in 14-15. Didn't do anything in either. In 15-16 He played just over 30 in the A and 22 with the Habs. Did zilch. 2016-17 was the most time he had spent in the AHL.

Both PK and Gallagher had success in the AHL before being brought up and they hit hot when they came in. That wasn't DLR and Big Mac. DLR spent a ton of time just twiddling his thumbs with us. Should have been down getting minutes with good players.

Especially on board with your last paragraph!!

 

[417]

I think you are bang on about Big Mac being mishandled. Among other things the pep talk Sly giving him about not making the NHL as a point producer and next thing the guy is fighting and trying to be all physical. But in any event.

Gallagher had a short stint in the AHL, did well and carried that into the NHL where he put up really good numbers. PK spent almost a season in the AHL before being brought up and he smoked that league.

DLR spent equal time at each level in 14-15. Didn't do anything in either. In 15-16 He played just over 30 in the A and 22 with the Habs. Did zilch. 2016-17 was the most time he had spent in the AHL.

Both PK and Gallagher had success in the AHL before being brought up and they hit hot when they came in. That wasn't DLR and Big Mac. DLR spent a ton of time just twiddling his thumbs with us. Should have been down getting minutes with good players.

PK and Gallagher went from AHL to NHL roles right away, they weren't shuffled in and out of the lineup, for 5-7 mins a game like DLR and McCarron have.

DLR finally got an opportunity after Plekanec was traded and he responded with 8pts in 20 games.

A big part of development,, is opportunity...

 

[yianik]

PK and Gallagher went from AHL to NHL roles right away, they weren't shuffled in and out of the lineup, for 5-7 mins a game like DLR and McCarron have.

DLR finally got an opportunity after Plekanec was traded and he responded with 8pts in 20 games.

A big part of development,, is opportunity...

And frankly that's a concern about CJ. A lot better than MR, no question. But still a guy who I think has the " young fella needs to earn his way up " approach.

I mean I get that philosophy. But it's outdated. There are good players in the AHL who do even better in the NHL right off . Why ? They get to play with better players and that's a bigger factor than the stiffer competition.

DLR, if you want to see if he has anything , has to play decent minutes as you say with decently skilled linemates.

But you can just see CJ shoving him on the 4rh line with the least skilled wingers on the whole roster. Pleks being 3C. Hope to be wrong.

 

[montreal]

I’d say about 15 games total.....and from what I watched he did not strike me as an offensive threat, like ever.

Then there’s the few dozen nhl hockey games

....even Vegas had a chance to select him in the expansion draft and decided to turn away and select overpaid older emelin.

In the under 20 WJC he was not used in a offensive role, same with AHL or NHL....my guess is the Canadiens see him in the same light that I do....a player that can occasionally chip in offensively but that’s best suited for a 3rd line role and a 4th line role on a really good team.

I like the player, just not as much as some here.

15 games in the AHL or SHL?

There was always questions about DLR's offensive game, but in the 2nd league at 17 he had a pretty good season, here's how he compares with Filip Forsberg as they were on the same team,

At 17 in the 2nd league (like our AHL),
Forsberg - 43-8-9-17 (.4 ppg)
DLR - 38-6-6-12 (.32 ppg)

now that's as far as they compare since the next year at 18 Forsberg was still in the 2nd league but DLR was in the SHL so it's hard to compare them. In the SHL he was 1 of 3 teenagers on the team if you only count players with more then say 15 games. The other two teens were a year older and had 7 pts between them while DLR was 8th on the team in scoring while the guys in front of him were all 26 to 32.

So there was some offense, but what does Lefebvre do, he puts him on the 4th line and he doesn't give his 4th line a lot of ice time. After the WJC's he was moved up and got more ice time and started to put up decent numbers for a 19 year old. Then he gets called up to the NHL after he was just starting to gel imo. In the NHL he plays 33 games and has 4 goals, looks solid for a 19 year old.

But the next year he's sent back to the AHL after training camp, starts off the season very slow, was playing with Dumont and Scherbak I believe, line was just terrible. They change up the lines after some injuries/callups and he starts doing much better and so of course just as he's starting to string together some offense once again they call up him, he plays 22 games, gets 1 freaking point, is jerked about between the 4th line and press box and then gets sent down.

The next season he's sent down after camp again, once again he starts off very slowly. Once again he starts putting it together to the point he's one of their better players so of course just as he's starting to put together offensive games he gets called up barely plays, sits in the press box and then gets sent down.

Now all of this could have been avoided. They could have put him in the OHL at 19, had 3 years in the AHL and he could be a rookie in the NHL next year and while we'll never know what would have happened, it's clear this was a very poor way to handle him even if he didn't show much in the way off offense which I think he did but never could do it long enough because they kept calling him up right as he was heating up.

also it's funny you put you like him but not as much as others, DLR has gotten so much hate around here, it wasn't until later this past season when he was given a bigger role and had some production that more started to think he may actually be a decent 4th liner. I said all along that he was handled very poorly but still could be a solid 4th liner for us.

McCarron in my opinion was mishandled, but I don’t believe it’s the bring him up send him down routine, it’s the role they gave him....anyways, it’s just an opinion, who knows who’s right.

DLR imo was likely mishandled the worst of any of them, and it's very much to do with the yo-yoing. Just as the kid was putting strings of games together where he was showing/creating/producing what happens? He gets called up, then benched, then sent down and they repeated that mistake every year. Just not sure how someone can think this wouldn't have a big impact on their confidence, development.

Next you say McCarron was mishandled, which clearly he was, but you say not for the yo-yos but for the role they gave him. The problem is that Lefebvre actually did a pretty good job with McCarron at least for the most part. Never once did Lefebvre take McCarron off the top 6 despite how shitty he was playing at times. He always got quality ice time and PP time. It wasn't until this year that he really stuck him with such crappy linemates for most nights. The problem with McCarron is he comes in and does great in his first month as a rookie in the AHL but it didn't take long to call him up and then bench him and then send him back and he never looked the same. Now of course we can lay blame on Timmins, McCarron, MT, MB, and they are share the blame but imo he could have been handled much better in terms of not calling him up until he dominated for more then 1 month.

It worked with Subban, and Gallagher.....some players played many games in the AHL like Beaulieu and never figured it out. There’s no exact formula, every case is different.

Subban they did a great job, Guy Boucher was very smart with him. He dominated the AHL for a full season and then gets called up for the playoffs and looks very good. The rest is history. I don't have an issue with calling up a player at 20, but wait till they dominate for at least half the season if not all the season. Hudon did it, he started out as a 20 year old rookie that was among the league leaders in points early in the season. He didn't have much help so he couldn't keep up the pace but still had a very good year. Yet they left him there.

Gallagher in his last 3 WHL seasons in 172 games he had 126 goals (that's a .73 goals per game) in his rookie year in the AHL he plays really well in half a season and gets called up. I would have left him there all year but to show how good he was, in just 36 games he finished tied for 2nd on the team in goals with players that played just about double the amount of games.

So to me they did the right thing with both Subban and Gallagher. Beaulieu they should have left him in the AHL (and hired better coaches), he played most of the year in the AHL and was pretty good. He tied for the team lead in points but you could see the problems in his own end so I wouldn't have called him up as a 20 year old rookie. Then the same next year, he spends much of the year in the AHL, missed 19 games after being called up and showing mixed results as imo he wasn't progressing yet they still called him up. Not a smart move. Now we all know Beaulieu had his issues in his own end and some feel you can't fix stupid but I still think they should have handled him better.

I do very much believe each case is different, no exact formula. That said I prefer to lean towards the side of caution and I much prefer that they wait unless they are dominating before a call up.

 

[jaffy27]

15 games in the AHL or SHL?

There was always questions about DLR's offensive game, but in the 2nd league at 17 he had a pretty good season, here's how he compares with Filip Forsberg as they were on the same team,

At 17 in the 2nd league (like our AHL),
Forsberg - 43-8-9-17 (.4 ppg)
DLR - 38-6-6-12 (.32 ppg)

now that's as far as they compare since the next year at 18 Forsberg was still in the 2nd league but DLR was in the SHL so it's hard to compare them. In the SHL he was 1 of 3 teenagers on the team if you only count players with more then say 15 games. The other two teens were a year older and had 7 pts between them while DLR was 8th on the team in scoring while the guys in front of him were all 26 to 32.

So there was some offense, but what does Lefebvre do, he puts him on the 4th line and he doesn't give his 4th line a lot of ice time. After the WJC's he was moved up and got more ice time and started to put up decent numbers for a 19 year old. Then he gets called up to the NHL after he was just starting to gel imo. In the NHL he plays 33 games and has 4 goals, looks solid for a 19 year old.

But the next year he's sent back to the AHL after training camp, starts off the season very slow, was playing with Dumont and Scherbak I believe, line was just terrible. They change up the lines after some injuries/callups and he starts doing much better and so of course just as he's starting to string together some offense once again they call up him, he plays 22 games, gets 1 freaking point, is jerked about between the 4th line and press box and then gets sent down.

The next season he's sent down after camp again, once again he starts off very slowly. Once again he starts putting it together to the point he's one of their better players so of course just as he's starting to put together offensive games he gets called up barely plays, sits in the press box and then gets sent down.

Now all of this could have been avoided. They could have put him in the OHL at 19, had 3 years in the AHL and he could be a rookie in the NHL next year and while we'll never know what would have happened, it's clear this was a very poor way to handle him even if he didn't show much in the way off offense which I think he did but never could do it long enough because they kept calling him up right as he was heating up.

also it's funny you put you like him but not as much as others, DLR has gotten so much hate around here, it wasn't until later this past season when he was given a bigger role and had some production that more started to think he may actually be a decent 4th liner. I said all along that he was handled very poorly but still could be a solid 4th liner for us.



DLR imo was likely mishandled the worst of any of them, and it's very much to do with the yo-yoing. Just as the kid was putting strings of games together where he was showing/creating/producing what happens? He gets called up, then benched, then sent down and they repeated that mistake every year. Just not sure how someone can think this wouldn't have a big impact on their confidence, development.

Next you say McCarron was mishandled, which clearly he was, but you say not for the yo-yos but for the role they gave him. The problem is that Lefebvre actually did a pretty good job with McCarron at least for the most part. Never once did Lefebvre take McCarron off the top 6 despite how ****ty he was playing at times. He always got quality ice time and PP time. It wasn't until this year that he really stuck him with such crappy linemates for most nights. The problem with McCarron is he comes in and does great in his first month as a rookie in the AHL but it didn't take long to call him up and then bench him and then send him back and he never looked the same. Now of course we can lay blame on Timmins, McCarron, MT, MB, and they are share the blame but imo he could have been handled much better in terms of not calling him up until he dominated for more then 1 month.



Subban they did a great job, Guy Boucher was very smart with him. He dominated the AHL for a full season and then gets called up for the playoffs and looks very good. The rest is history. I don't have an issue with calling up a player at 20, but wait till they dominate for at least half the season if not all the season. Hudon did it, he started out as a 20 year old rookie that was among the league leaders in points early in the season. He didn't have much help so he couldn't keep up the pace but still had a very good year. Yet they left him there.

Gallagher in his last 3 WHL seasons in 172 games he had 126 goals (that's a .73 goals per game) in his rookie year in the AHL he plays really well in half a season and gets called up. I would have left him there all year but to show how good he was, in just 36 games he finished tied for 2nd on the team in goals with players that played just about double the amount of games.

So to me they did the right thing with both Subban and Gallagher. Beaulieu they should have left him in the AHL (and hired better coaches), he played most of the year in the AHL and was pretty good. He tied for the team lead in points but you could see the problems in his own end so I wouldn't have called him up as a 20 year old rookie. Then the same next year, he spends much of the year in the AHL, missed 19 games after being called up and showing mixed results as imo he wasn't progressing yet they still called him up. Not a smart move. Now we all know Beaulieu had his issues in his own end and some feel you can't fix stupid but I still think they should have handled him better.

I do very much believe each case is different, no exact formula. That said I prefer to lean towards the side of caution and I much prefer that they wait unless they are dominating before a call up.

Now that’s a post

Great detail!!