Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part 7)

[Deluded Puck]

See Canucks come to town shows how good drafting can turn a team around. Horvat, Quinn Hughes, Petterson are core to build around. While our top 10 picks, one is in the minors, another been traded 4 times and likely on his last NHL team. While the other is playing for Tampa.

Common theme around Boeser/Petterson, Q. Hughes - none were rushed into the NHL, and when they did arrive, they were immediately put into roles to help them succeed. None of that bottom six winger crap.

Its not just drafing, our development pathways are somehow even worse.

 

[Habs Icing]

Yes this is the deepest and the best prospect pool I have seen. It should definitely lead to some solid NHLers. Patience is definitely required.

You know you just may be right but after 17 years of mostly incompetent drafting the patience has run out. Very few people want to wait another 2, 3 years to see if TT finally got it right with this batch.

 

[Scintillating10]

Common theme around Boeser/Petterson, Q. Hughes - none were rushed into the NHL, and when they did arrive, they were immediately put into roles to help them succeed. None of that bottom six winger crap.

Its not just drafing, our development pathways are somehow even worse.

Hughes was in NHL less than a year after he was drafted. He is looking like a first pairing defenseman. Same as passing on Reilly for Galchenyuk.

 

[DAChampion]

Hughes was in NHL less than a year after he was drafted. He is looking like a first pairing defenseman. Same as passing on Reilly for Galchenyuk.

A year is a year.

And in the case of Galchenyuk, they rushed him after he had missed a year, which a lot of the board was calling as f***ing stupid.

And Kotkaniemi was among the youngest in his draft class. A lot of the board didn't want him rushed. He didn't even get to the WJC.

 

[Deluded Puck]

Hughes was in NHL less than a year after he was drafted. He is looking like a first pairing defenseman. Same as passing on Reilly for Galchenyuk.

In Montreal they would've stuck him on the bottom pairing and told him to play risk free hockey.

If the player is physically ready, you have to let them play the role you drafted them for.

A year is a year.

And in the case of Galchenyuk, they rushed him after he had missed a year, which a lot of the board was calling as f*cking stupid.

And Kotkaniemi was among the youngest in his draft class. A lot of the board didn't want him rushed. He didn't even get to the WJC.

at 18 years old even 10 months of extra development are huge.

Yes this is the deepest and the best prospect pool I have seen. It should definitely lead to some solid NHLers. Patience is definitely required.

Management cannot be trusted to develop the prospects right.

What will you say if the majority fail to pan out in 3-4 years? You'll blame the players as per.

 

[Scintillating10]

In Montreal they would've stuck him on the bottom pairing and told him to play risk free hockey.

If the player is physically ready, you have to let them play the role you drafted them for.

Can only blame so much on development. Before it was he was forced to draft for size(McCarron, Tinordi). Then it was he was forced to draft defensemen(Giroux draft). Then his excuse was french Canadien(Leblanc). At some point Timmins has to take responsibility for his mistakes. Shouldn't be passing the buck. He missed on a ton of talent. Everybody makes mistakes yes, but not to that level.

 

[Deluded Puck]

You have to hope that this is what's coming at the draft. Staying on his hands and picking 14 times would be stupid.

package those picks and maybe a roster player/prospect to move up?

 

[Habs Icing]

IMO it's a deep prospect pool in the sense that it has a lot of middle-six forwards and second pairing dmen.

The pool is lacking in potential gamebreakers.

Actually, it's not even that good. It looks like a deep draft because very few of the prospects are in the pros. The overwhelming majority are either in juniors, college or the European leagues.

We complain that we have hardly any drafted players on the Habs. Last night I think it was 4. Well, Laval has the same problem. Timmins' picks are so bad they don't even become 2nd tier players for the Rocket. There are only nine players on the Rocket drafted by Timmins. 9 out of 32 on their present roster. That's why I don't buy the development excuse. How can the development team screw up our prospects when the players are not good enough to even make it to the AHL level?

 

[Deluded Puck]

Can only blame so much on development. Before it was he was forced to draft for size(McCarron, Tinordi). Then it was he was forced to draft defensemen(Giroux draft). Then his excuse was french Canadien(Leblanc). At some point Timmins has to take responsibility for his mistakes. Shouldn't be passing the buck. He missed on a ton of talent. Everybody makes mistakes yes, but not to that level.

Timmins should be gone, fire him all you want.

I think though that Beaulieu and Galchenyuk would certainly have better careers if they were in a organisation that actually knew what they were doing development wise.

I can't imagine a worse major & minor league coaching combo for young players than Therrien and Lefebvre. It was obvious.

 

[DAChampion]

Can only blame so much on development. Before it was he was forced to draft for size(McCarron, Tinordi). Then it was he was forced to draft defensemen(Giroux draft). Then his excuse was french Canadien(Leblanc). At some point Timmins has to take responsibility for his mistakes. Shouldn't be passing the buck. He missed on a ton of talent. Everybody makes mistakes yes, but not to that level.

They drafted Leblanc because they liked him. He was ranked 9th on their list, and leaguewide, Leblanc was the consensus pick at that position. He's also a terrible example, as he's clearly an example of a development failure.

 

[DAChampion]

Timmins should be gone, fire him all you want.

I think though that Beaulieu and Galchenyuk would certainly have better careers if they were in a organisation that actually knew what they were doing development wise.

I can't imagine a worse major & minor league coaching combo for young players than Therrien and Lefebvre. It was obvious.

By the end of next season, we should know for sure if Bouchard has had a positive impact.

 

[Whitesnake]

They drafted Leblanc because they liked him. He was ranked 9th on their list, and leaguewide, Leblanc was the consensus pick at that position. He's also a terrible example, as he's clearly an example of a development failure.

I think that out of every development story, THAT one could be seen as one. For sure. Yet...I will always challenge Leblanc's commitment to playing hockey. A guy that his after hockey career is more important than his present hockey career will not do what it takes to improve. But....Lefebvre was on his case way too much.

 

[Whitesnake]

I just hope though that people who are blaming the draft, want Bergevin out because of it. 'Cause it's Bergevin who keep using Timmins at that position no matter Churla. Did you hear what Timmins said at the press conference when challenged about scouting?

He said....''so you want to talk about Timmins group....'' or something like that. Just so people STILL understand that the draft is STILL directed by Timmins. And not Churla.

Then if you blame development, I sure hope so that you want Bergevin out too. He's the one who kept Lefebvre for so long. He's the one who keeps approving our youth to start early in the NHL even if not ready.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I just hope though that people who are blaming the draft, want Bergevin out because of it. 'Cause it's Bergevin who keep using Timmins at that position no matter Churla. Did you hear what Timmins said at the press conference when challenged about scouting?

He said....''so you want to talk about Timmins group....'' or something like that. Just so people STILL understand that the draft is STILL directed by Timmins. And not Churla.

Then if you blame development, I sure hope so that you want Bergevin out too. He's the one who kept Lefebvre for so long. He's the one who keeps approving our youth to start early in the NHL even if not ready.

Bergevin needs to go no matter what. If Timmins goes with him... so be it.

What I don't want to see is Timmins taking the bullet for Bergevin. That would be a joke.

 

[DAChampion]

I am one of the most aggressive Timmins defenders, and I feel like procrastinating, so I'm going to write a longer post.

I have primarily defended Timmins on the basis that his drafting success has been undermined by poor development. I think that Lefebvre was a disaster, and that the choice of assignment of players to ECHL, AHL, NHL 4th line/press box, NHL actual role, etc has been a disaster. I believe that Leblanc could have been a good middle-six forward, and that with better development some of Tinordi, McCarron, De La Rose, etc would have done better. I remember, for example, That Morgan Ellis was a prospect that the board was mostly excited about after he decimated the CHL in his last season, and then he proceeded to never get ice time, he should have been left in the ECHL for a year. I remember that Lefebvre was always playing goons on the power play. I remember that Bergevin denied Kotkaniemi the chance to go to the WJCs.

I will always believe that it's impossible to develop without ice time.

But still, it may be that Timmins actually does suck. It could be, for example, that his greater success in the period 2003-2007 was due to the rest of the league being less good at drafting, or it could be that he was simply better at his job 15 years ago. A lot of people are good at their job one day, and bad at it 15 years later.

For me the line in the sand is whether or not the youth core looks better by the end of next season. Though the development isn't perfect now, it's much better, and 3 years is enough time for my theory to be tested. There's a better coach in Laval and they finally let Kotkaniemi go back down, where the coach is playing him on the 1st line in all situation rather than playing Zack Stortini.

By this time next year, if I see significant improvement in Brook, Fleury, Poehling, Evans, Vejdemo, and possibly Olofsson, Ikonen, Ylonen, Romanov, Caulfield, etc then I will take that as vindication for what I've argued. If the improvement is not there, then I'll have to acknowledge that it is almost certainly the case that Timmins is simply subpar.

 

[WinterLion]

You know you just may be right but after 17 years of mostly incompetent drafting the patience has run out. Very few people want to wait another 2, 3 years to see if TT finally got it right with this batch.

To me the frustrating thing is that we haven't had a star offensive player in forever... we had John Leclair ages ago but traded him away before he became a force. Koivu had the injury and since then nothing...

We want to pretend guys like Galchenyuk and Kotkienemi are going to be that... but the reality is that they aren't and never were going to be. Not many 3rd overall picks actually become that. It is very hard to get... but still we have been in a long long drought..

 

[Whitesnake]

Bergevin needs to go no matter what. If Timmins goes with him... so be it.

What I don't want to see is Timmins taking the bullet for Bergevin. That would be a joke.

Well that's life my friend. The boss will always fire the guys under him till his boss fires him. Seeing how Molson operates, I have no doubt Bergevin will be able to sell him that finally, we have to make a change at the drafting table. Yet, at one point, when everybody is gone, it will be his turn.

One thing though. All those years of succesful mediocrity......the ONLY guy that saw all of this is Trevor Timmins. So at one point, maybe, some could think that maybe it's Bergevin that is taking the bullet that should be aimed towards Timmins......With better drafting, the GM looks better.

Though I'm OBVIOUSLY not advocating to give Bergevin the benefit of the doubt here....people in here know full well what I think of both of these guys for so many years now....

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

To me the frustrating thing is that we haven't had a star offensive player in forever... we had John Leclair ages ago but traded him away before he became a force. Koivu had the injury and since then nothing...

We want to pretend guys like Galchenyuk and Kotkienemi are going to be that... but the reality is that they aren't and never were going to be. Not many 3rd overall picks actually become that. It is very hard to get... but still we have been in a long long drought..

It usually takes multiple high picks to get that superstar. We've had three top five picks in the last 35 or so years... Of the three we've had, one is a supertar (and a goalie) another is the 2nd highest scorer in a pretty weak draft and it's too soon to know what Kotkaniemi will be.

This is why I and so many others have advocated for higher picks and doing a full rebuild in the past. If you commit to it and trade for younger players/prospects as well as having multiple high picks you will inevitably get a star player out of it. You have to be extremely unlucky not to. You may strike out in one draft but sooner or later you'll land that pick. Sometimes you might get lucky and get it on your first try and sometimes you might get multiple.

At the end of the day though, it requires commitment to a direction and we don't do this.

Well that's life my friend. The boss will always fire the guys under him till his boss fires him. Seeing how Molson operates, I have no doubt Bergevin will be able to sell him that finally, we have to make a change at the drafting table. Yet, at one point, when everybody is gone, it will be his turn.

One thing though. All those years of succesful mediocrity......the ONLY guy that saw all of this is Trevor Timmins. So at one point, maybe, some could think that maybe it's Bergevin that is taking the bullet that should be aimed towards Timmins......With better drafting, the GM looks better.

Though I'm OBVIOUSLY not advocating to give Bergevin the benefit of the doubt here....people in here know full well what I think of both of these guys for so many years now....

I'm not sure what MB is going to argue. I know what I'd say back to him if he tried to blame it on Timmins though, I'd ask him why we had success before the new regime got here and why we haven't had success since. I'd love to hear his answer to this.

End of the day though, I think I've seen enough from Molson to know that he really doesn't seem to know what he's doing. I think he'll take MB at face value. If Timmins is the scapegoat that MB wants to use, then I think it will work for him. And he'll probably get another year or two out of it as well.

I still don't think MB is going anywhere.

 

[Tighthead]

One thing though. All those years of succesful mediocrity......the ONLY guy that saw all of this is Trevor Timmins. So at one point, maybe, some could think that maybe it's Bergevin that is taking the bullet that should be aimed towards Timmins......With better drafting, the GM looks better.

Though I'm OBVIOUSLY not advocating to give Bergevin the benefit of the doubt here....people in here know full well what I think of both of these guys for so many years now....

At this point, Timmins is clearly Bergevin’s guy. He didn’t hire him, but he retained him. Directed him. Supervised him. Promoted him.

While I fully expect Timmins to be the scapegoat, if it happens it is a complete avowal of leadership by MB. At this point there is no daylight between Timmins and MB. Firing Timmins alone is just p***ing in the wind.

In the big picture, a GM can’t escape culpability for constant and enduring draft/scouting issues. It’s a pillar of the job description.

He has repeatedly endorsed Timmins and for MB to reverse course now and keep his job is not logically sustainable.

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

Well that's life my friend. The boss will always fire the guys under him till his boss fires him. Seeing how Molson operates, I have no doubt Bergevin will be able to sell him that finally, we have to make a change at the drafting table. Yet, at one point, when everybody is gone, it will be his turn.

One thing though. All those years of succesful mediocrity......the ONLY guy that saw all of this is Trevor Timmins. So at one point, maybe, some could think that maybe it's Bergevin that is taking the bullet that should be aimed towards Timmins......With better drafting, the GM looks better.

Though I'm OBVIOUSLY not advocating to give Bergevin the benefit of the doubt here....people in here know full well what I think of both of these guys for so many years now....

17 years. One forward who had a 60 points season (Pacioretty). Let that sink in for a second.
We're not even talking about development at this point.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

17 years. One forward who had a 60 points season (Pacioretty). Let that sink in for a second.
We're not even talking about development at this point.

It's pretty sad.

 

[Whitesnake]

17 years. One forward who had a 60 points season (Pacioretty). Let that sink in for a second.
We're not even talking about development at this point.

I know I keep saying this too. No top C in 17 years. You remove 1 draft and suddenly Timmins record becomes medicore. You CANNOT surf on a draft that happened 13 years ago.

That's the reason why the biggest Timmins defenders keeps coming back with the latest 3 drafts. So that it hopefully adds to Timmins pathetic record as of late. And chances are we will find a couple of players in there. But I am not expecting a game changing player though.

 

[Capitano]

I know I keep saying this too. No top C in 17 years. You remove 1 draft and suddenly Timmins record becomes medicore. You CANNOT surf on a draft that happened 13 years ago.

That's the reason why the biggest Timmins defenders keeps coming back with the latest 3 drafts. So that it hopefully adds to Timmins pathetic record as of late. And chances are we will find a couple of players in there. But I am not expecting a game changing player though.

I'm ready for a change...he is one of the few constants from the team over multiple regimes. I'm not solely pointing the finger at him, but at this point I'm ready to give somebody new a chance.

There are other teams that draft far better than we do...we are a rich team and those salaries don't count against the cap...find the best guy and office him double what he makes today. Simple as that.

 

[Ezpz]

I watched the behind the scenes video of the draft from last year. The bicep club got a chuckle out of me. These guys are too comfortable. Foxhole indeed. I think less of Timmins than I did 5 years ago, but the truth is his best draft success stories are guys who were traded away from here. He also does amateur scouting for guys we're going to acquire in trades. That means guys we've gotten like Suzuki are also scouted by him or his staff. He drafted a decent team from 03-07 like him or not.


Patches- -
Akost- -Tender
Grabovski-Skost
Lapierre-Chipchura-White

McDonagh-Subban
Streit-
Emelin-Weber

Price
Halak


Keep in mind the big team already had Markov, Ribeiro, Plekanec, Kovalev, Higgins, Ryder, Gorges and Koivu at that time to fill those holes. That team could have competed for a cup. Obviously the center line would have aged poorly and we had nothing to replace them. Maybe Panarin would have signed here if we'd had a good team for example. Chicago and Pittsburgh lead the league in rookie impact players in the last decade, almost none of which were drafted by them. When you're good free agents flock to you.


08-15 looks like a big pile of crap, but at the same time we can easily see we tanked in weak drafts and drafted late in strong drafts, on top of having extra picks in weak drafts and missing picks in strong drafts.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I know I keep saying this too. No top C in 17 years. You remove 1 draft and suddenly Timmins record becomes medicore. You CANNOT surf on a draft that happened 13 years ago.

That's the reason why the biggest Timmins defenders keeps coming back with the latest 3 drafts. So that it hopefully adds to Timmins pathetic record as of late. And chances are we will find a couple of players in there. But I am not expecting a game changing player though.

At the end of the day, you're not likely to get a "game changing player" with mid to late firsts. It can happen but it's unlikely and it's very unlikely to do so with any kind of consistency.

Toronto is an interesting case. We're kind of where they were a while back, spinning their wheels and not going anywhere. Then they started drafting high and got Matthews, Marner and Reilly. That's excellent (and lucky) for them. That's what we should do. Make a concentrated effort at drafting high for a few years and trade for the best prospects we can. If we do that we'll draft impact players.

MB keeps saying he wants to 'build through the draft' but you aren't going to do that if you're average place in the draft is 25th or 26th... And you're definitely not doing that if you trade away your best prospect as we did with Sergachev.