Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part 6)

[26Mats]

I genuinely don't understand how some people don't think Timmins is a problem. So I decided to compare the Habs drafting record to all the other teams in the league.

Good players to me mean top 4 dmen/top 6 forward/starting goalie. I won't include 2017-2019 because it's too soon imo, but in that time we have drafted ONE top 4 dman in Sergachev using a top 10 pick and ONE top 6 forward in Gallagher in the 5th. I struggle to call Galchenyuk a top 6 player at this stage because I have doubts if a team will even sign him next year so you can be the judge on whether or not we have 2 or 3 good players drafted.

Anaheim(13): Jake Gardiner, Justin Schultz, Kyle Palmieri, Sami Vatanen, Cam Fowler, Rickard Rakell, John Gibson, William Karlsson, Hampus Lindholm, Frederik Andersen, Shea Theodore, Brandon Montour, Ondrej Kase
Arizona(6): OEL, Max Domi, Christian Dvorak, Dylan Strome, Clayton Keller, Jacob Chychrun
Boston(5): Tyler Seguin, Dougie Hamilton, David Pastrnak, Jake Debrusk, Charlie McAvoy
Buffalo(5): Rasmus Ristolainen, Nikita Zadorov, Sam Reinhart, Victor Olofsson, Jack Eichel
Calgary(5): TJ Brodie, Johnny Gaudreau, Sean Monahan, Matthew Tkachuk, Adam Fox
Carolina(8): Brian Dumoulin, Jeff Skinner, Justin Faulk, Jacob Slavin, Elias Lindholm, Brett Pesce, Noah Hanifin, Sebastian Aho
Chicago(6): Kevin Hayes, Philipp Danault(ducks for cover), Brandon Saad, Teuvo Teravainen, Nick Schmaltz, Alex Debrincat
Colorado(6): Matt Duchene, ROR, Tyson Barrie, Gabriel Landeskog, Nathan Mackinnon, Mikko Rantanen
Columbus(7): Cam Atkinson, Ryan Johansen, Ryan Murray, Joonas Korpisalo, Oliver Bjorkstrand, Zach Werenski, PLD
Dallas(3): Reilly Smith, John Klingberg, Esa Lindell
Detroit(7): Gustav Nyquist, Tomas Tatar, Petr Mrazek, Anthony Mantha, Tyler Bertuzzi, Dylan Larkin, Filip Hronek
Edmonton(9): Jordan Eberle, Taylor Hall, RNH, Oscar Klefbom, Erik Gustafson, Darnell Nurse, Leon Draisaitl, Connor McDavid, John Marino
Florida(6): Jacob Markstrom, Jonathan Huberdeau, Vincent Trocheck, Mike Matheson, Aleksander Barkov, Aaron Ekblad
LA(4): Drew Doughty, Brayden Schenn, Slava Voynov, Colin Miller
Minnesota(7): Nick Leddy, Darcy Keumper, Mikael Granlund, Jason Zucker, Jonas Brodin, Matt Dumba, Alex Tuch
Nashville(6): Roman Josi, Ryan Ellis, Mattias Ekholm, Seth Jones, Viktor Arvidsson, Samuel Girard
New Jersey(3): Adam Larsson, Damon Severson, Jesper Bratt
NYI(6): Josh Bailey, Travis Hamonic, Jared Spurgeon, John Tavares, Anders Lee, Matthew Barzal
NYR(4): Derek Stepan, Chris Kreider, JT Miller, Brady Skjei
Ottawa(6): Erik Karlsson, Robin Lehner, Mike Hoffman, Mark Stone, Mika Zibanejad, Thomas Chabot
Philly(5): Sean Couturier, Shayne Gostisbehere, Travis Sanehim, Ivan Provorov, Travis Konecny
Pittsburgh(2 or 3): Bryan Rust? Matt Murray, Jake Guentzel
San Jose(3): Tomas Hertl, Kevin Labanc, Timo Meier.
St.Louis(6): Alex Pietrangelo, Jaden Schwartz, Vladimir Tarasenko, Jordan Binnington, Colton Parayko, Vince Dunn
Tampa(8 or 9): Steven Stamkos, Victor Hedman, Nikita Kucherov, Ondrej Palat, Andrei Vasilevski, Nikita Gusev?, Jonathan Drouin, Brayden Point, Tony Deangelo
Toronto(5 or 6): Nazem Kadri, Morgan Rielly, William Nylander, Mitch Marner, Travis Dermott?, Auston Matthews
Vancouver(2 or 3): Bo Horvat, Brock Boeser, Ben Hutton?
Washington(7): John Carlson, Braden Holtby, Dmitri Orlov, Evgeny Kuznetsov, Philipp Grubauer, Filip Forsberg, Jakub Vrana
Winnipeg(from 2011-2016 (7)): Mark Scheifele, Jacob Trouba, Connor Hellebyuck, Josh Morrissey, Nilojak Ehlers, Kyle Connor, Patrik Laine

Dallas has the same amount of good drafted players as us but their three are much better than our 2/3. New Jersey has the same as us and they have been awful, no surprise.

Pens have less but Rust, Murray and Guentzel are better than Galchenyuk, Gallagher and Sergachev for sure, they also had no 1sts in 4 of those years. Same with San Jose.

Vancouver's 2 or 3 players beat our 3 pretty easily, but they also fired their scouts during this period IIRC.

In conclusion, the teams that have the same number as us all have proper reasons and/or made up for it by having 2/3 better players than our 2/3 with the exception of New Jersey. I know coaching and development hasn't been good here, but that record is pathetic and something needs to change.

So to those that still support Timmins, please help me understand why.

You're conveniently leaving out very good years from 2003 to 2007 and 2017 to 2019.

Also, the latter years can't be judged...

2015 - given we had no 2nd, if Juulsen pans out, it's a good draft. Given Juulsen may have a career threatening eye injury, we may never know.

2016 - Sergachev and Mete - again in a year we have no 2nd - grest draft.

My take on Timmins: if 2 of KK, Caufield, and Poehling don't pan out, he should at least lose the power to be in charge of forwards - if not fired. In fact I'm ready to strip those powers now.

But very few scouts in the league have drafted this group of D and goalies since 2003:

McDonagh Subban
Streit Sergachev
Mete Fleury
Emelin

Romanov Brook
Harris Juulsen
Struble Norlinder
Fairbrother

Price
Halak

Primeau

Also, a lot of those teams got those players with multiple top 5 or top10 picks. We had a top 3 pick in a very bad year and it seems did well with Sergachev in our other lottery pick.

 

[Milhouse40]

You're conveniently leaving out very good years from 2003 to 2007 and 2017 to 2019.

Also, the latter years can't be judged...

2015 - given we had no 2nd, if Juulsen pans out, it's a good draft. Given Juulsen may have a career threatening eye injury, we may never know.

2016 - Sergachev and Mete - again in a year we have no 2nd - grest draft.

My take on Timmins: if 2 of KK, Caufield, and Poehling don't pan out, he should at least lose the power to be in charge of forwards - if not fired. In fact I'm ready to strip those powers now.

But very few scouts in the league have drafted this group of D and goalies since 2003:

McDonagh Subban
Streit Sergachev
Mete Fleury
Emelin

Romanov Brook
Harris Juulsen
Struble Norlinder
Fairbrother

Price
Halak

Primeau

Also, a lot of those teams got those players with multiple top 5 or top10 picks. We had a top 3 pick in a very bad year and it seems did well with Sergachev in our other lottery pick.

You work with wishful thinking.
Why do you credits him with Romanov, Brook, Harris, Juulsen, Struble, Norlinder or Fairborther at this point?
These guys proved absolutely nothing in the NHL, they even didn't prove they can play well in the AHL.

That's where i have a problem….they sold their ability to draft, that's where our future lies apparently. Yet since the new management is in place, there's absolutely no NHL results to back that claim, absolutely none….in fact it's the total opposite, so far the NHL results we have on their ability to draft is that they suck.

 

[26Mats]

You work with wishful thinking.
Why do you credits him with Romanov, Brook, Harris, Juulsen, Struble, Norlinder or Fairborther at this point?
These guys proved absolutely nothing in the NHL, they even didn't prove they can play well in the AHL.

That's where i have a problem….they sold their ability to draft, that's where our future lies apparently. Yet since the new management is in place, there's absolutely no NHL results to back that claim, absolutely none….in fact it's the total opposite, so far the NHL results we have on their ability to draft is that they suck.

I separated the prospect pool from the NHl pool.

If you're going to evaluate Timmins whole record, evaluate his whole record. Don't just conveniently start after his best years.

 

[Milhouse40]

I separated the prospect pool from the NHl pool.

If you're going to evaluate Timmins whole record, evaluate his whole record. Don't just conveniently start after his best years.

in 2011, he drafted no one of value
In 2010, he drafted one good player….in the 5th round, got lucky there.
In 2009, he drafted no one of value.
In 2008, he drafted no one of value
In 2007, terrific draft with McDonagh, Pacioretty and Subban
In 2006, he drafted no one of value
In 2005, he drafted no one of value other than Price

One good year at drafting in the last 13 years…..One.
Now i need to back a long long way to find out how good Timmins are?

 

[26Mats]

in 2011, he drafted no one of value
In 2010, he drafted one good player….in the 5th round, got lucky there.
In 2009, he drafted no one of value.
In 2008, he drafted no one of value
In 2007, terrific draft with McDonagh, Pacioretty and Subban
In 2006, he drafted no one of value
In 2005, he drafted no one of value other than Price

One good year at drafting in the last 13 years…..One.
Now i need to back a long long way to find out how good Timmins are?

You just said 2005 was a good draft, but left it out...

And in that year he drafted Latendresse, who had 25 goals and 37 points in 55 games with the wild as a 22 year old before his career was literally ruined because of concussions. Look at the number of games he played after that. And in interviews recently, a lot of them he was playing with post concussion syndrome.

The analysis above talks about good players. That's 5 good players from 2005 to 2007: Price, Latendresse, Subban, McDonagh, Pacioretty.

I also think Sergei Kostitsyn had what it took but was poorly developed and managed. A 19 year old hanging out with drug dealers. What could go wrong?

But my analysis is, replace Timmins' powers over forwards. Keep him for Dmen and goalies. What is your take on his record for goalies and D?

 

[Milhouse40]

You just said 2005 was a good draft, but left it out...

And in that year he drafted Latendresse, who had 25 goals and 37 points in 55 games with the wild as a 22 year old before his career was literally ruined because of concussions. Look at the number of games he played after that. And in interviews recently, a lot of them he was playing with post concussion syndrome.

The analysis above talks about good players. That's 5 good players from 2005 to 2007: Price, Latendresse, Subban, McDonagh, Pacioretty.

I also think Sergei Kostitsyn had what it took but was poorly developed and managed. A 19 year old hanging out with drug dealers. What could go wrong?

But my analysis is, replace Timmins' powers over forwards. Keep him for Dmen and goalies. What is your take on his record for goalies and D?

That's still 13 years away.
13 years. I mean…..there's a lot more to evaluate since then….and since then, he sucked.
And i put the 2005 draft….price was a great pick, but Latendresse, D'Agostini and SK were all meh players. Look at Pitts that year picking Letang in the 3rd, LA with Quick in the 3rd that's great drafting. Top quality players.

On goalies, same thing….13 years ago he was good.
For D-men….13 years ago he was good.

But since then, either it's forward, D or goalies….he sucked.
Like a broken clock he might have been right twice a day….but he didn't draft better.
Not missing out on top 10 picks isn't an accomplishment to me (and even then...he managed to screw some of these up)

 

[26Mats]

That's still 13 years away.
13 years. I mean…..there's a lot more to evaluate since then….and since then, he sucked.
And i put the 2005 draft….price was a great pick, but Latendresse, D'Agostini and SK were all meh players. Look at Pitts that year picking Letang in the 3rd, LA with Quick in the 3rd that's great drafting. Top quality players.

On goalies, same thing….13 years ago he was good.
For D-men….13 years ago he was good.

But since then, either it's forward, D or goalies….he sucked.
Like a broken clock he might have been right twice a day….but he didn't draft better.
Not missing out on top 10 picks isn't an accomplishment to me (and even then...he managed to screw some of these up)

Every team manages to screw some top 10 picks up... He screwed one up - Ak46.

Definiteky can't use recent drafting in the same way can use ilder years for evaluation. But one reason 2015 to 2019 may be good whereas 2008 to 2014 were bad is too much emphasis on size and need. (mcCarron, DLR, Crisp, and Fucale in 2013) were big problems.

That could be why this current prospect pool and group of young players feels like our prospect pool circa 2003- 2007.

But time will tell.

Also note, we only had or 1st and 2nd round picks in 2 of the 8 drafts from 2008 to 20015. We had 1 lottery pich (#3 overall Galchenyuk) and multiple seconds in those 2 drafts (2012, 2013), but they were pretty shitty drafts.

 

[Habs Icing]

I genuinely don't understand how some people don't think Timmins is a problem. So I decided to compare the Habs drafting record to all the other teams in the league.

Good players to me mean top 4 dmen/top 6 forward/starting goalie. I won't include 2017-2019 because it's too soon imo, but in that time we have drafted ONE top 4 dman in Sergachev using a top 10 pick and ONE top 6 forward in Gallagher in the 5th. I struggle to call Galchenyuk a top 6 player at this stage because I have doubts if a team will even sign him next year so you can be the judge on whether or not we have 2 or 3 good players drafted.

I was one of those that first praised TT, later defended him (just ask @Whitesnake) and now have come to the realization that @Whitesnake was right and I was wrong about TT.

And if you want to know how bad TT is, allow me to compare him to MB. If it wasn't for MB's trades this team would be worse than it is today and I want MB let go for his inability to build a winning team. That's how bad TT has been.

 

[HotPie]

Anyone who doesn't think this guy needs to go at this point is drinking some sweet sweet denial.

 

[Ozmodiar]

He’s the last bullet in MB’s gun. His last excuse. He’s fired mostly everyone else. He can fire Timmins and blame drafting.

 

[Roadhouse]

He’s the last bullet in MB’s gun. His last excuse. He’s fired mostly everyone else. He can fire Timmins and blame drafting.

He won't, as Trevor is part of Foxhole v2.0. The Biceps software release. Biceps? Haaa, but you stay here. Therrien was not Biceppy enough. Only Geoff is allowed to live a non-Biceps way of life.

 

[pepperMonkey]

He’s the last bullet in MB’s gun. His last excuse. He’s fired mostly everyone else. He can fire Timmins and blame drafting.

He can't fire Timmins. If he does, then MB has no one else to blame other than himself. Firing Timmins tells the world everything is MB's fault and MB would never admit that while he's the GM.

 

[rickthegoon]

The elephant in the room.

Must be fired.

I think there’s so many elephants in the room that the walls are about to bust out.

 

[LPHabsFan]

If people are calling for Timmins to be fired now yet are salivating at the prospect of having Gallagher (5th round), Primeau, Kotkaniemi, Poehling, Caulfied, Romanov, Fleury, Suzuki (traded for but you bet they talked to the scouts prior to doing the trade) , etc, they're just being some combination of hypocritical and/or selective in their rationale. Timmins is one person among a group of people that define whether or not a player is successful or not. There's the GM that ultimately decides who to pick based off the info that he gets from the scouting department. There's the pre-NHL/AHL development whether it be junior, college, or overseas leagues. Then there's the AHL development team if applicable, the coaching staff at the NHL level, and lastly the player itself (you can throw in family members in some cases as well).

The scout department's responsibility is to look at the past and take all that information in order to attempt to predict the future. However there is the rest of the organization and the players responsibility to do their best to get that player to where they want him to go.

If you look at the past number of years it's fairly obvious that for the most part, the failure of this organization's ability to develop prospects has been just that, the development part. There have been so many missteps from the NHL, AHL, and telling players where to play (NCAA vs Junior) that it's very hard to look at Timmins and say they should have drafted X over Y when at the time of the draft, not always but more often than not, it looked like a good pick at the time.

Because for all the talk about hindight in terms of who they should have drafted based off of where those players are at now vs then, there is no guarantee that if we drafted those players, they would have developed the same way and produce at the same clip they are now.

 

[Whitesnake]

I was one of those that first praised TT, later defended him (just ask @Whitesnake) and now have come to the realization that @Whitesnake was right and I was wrong about TT.

And if you want to know how bad TT is, allow me to compare him to MB. If it wasn't for MB's trades this team would be worse than it is today and I want MB let go for his inability to build a winning team. That's how bad TT has been.

Everybody is right and wrong at one point or another. No biggie here. If the debate stays civilized, that's all what's important to me. Timmins had his good moments. He also will hit the target with some players with our last 3 drafts. But to me, where we are, it's just not enough. He wasn't able in 14 years to find us 1 good centerman. Reason why we had to went past BPA to get Kotkaniemi. He wasn't able to get us any strong offensive winger with size either since 2003. No power forward whatsoever. Got us some nice goalies. And a fine defense. Yet since 2007, the only d-man of interest if Mete so far. Yep, a few might be incoming like Romanov and Norlinder. But the greatness of them all needs to be determined.

Anyway, I know we talk for nothing. He'll stay. And will be able to add another draft with plenty of picks so we'd have to wait and see.

 

[26Mats]

Everybody is right and wrong at one point or another. No biggie here. If the debate stays civilized, that's all what's important to me. Timmins had his good moments. He also will hit the target with some players with our last 3 drafts. But to me, where we are, it's just not enough. He wasn't able in 14 years to find us 1 good centerman. Reason why we had to went past BPA to get Kotkaniemi. He wasn't able to get us any strong offensive winger with size either since 2003. No power forward whatsoever. Got us some nice goalies. And a fine defense. Yet since 2007, the only d-man of interest if Mete so far. Yep, a few might be incoming like Romanov and Norlinder. But the greatness of them all needs to be determined.

Anyway, I know we talk for nothing. He'll stay. And will be able to add another draft with plenty of picks so we'd have to wait and see.

I think you're forgetting Sergachev and Pacioretty in a couple of your sentences...

Tough blow losing Juulsen to the eye injury...

And for Timmins' record losing Latendresse to comcussions (25 goals in 55 games as a 22 year old the moment he got out of our "development" program, only to start having multiple concussions back to back end his career at 25)

There are so many good d prospects that I'd be much more surprised if we don't have some good gems. Brook may be another Bealieu and Struble another Thrower, but all of Romanov, Brook, Harris, Norlinder, Fleury, Juulsen, Struble, and Fairbrother?

 

[Whitesnake]

You're conveniently leaving out very good years from 2003 to 2007 and 2017 to 2019.

Also, the latter years can't be judged...

2015 - given we had no 2nd, if Juulsen pans out, it's a good draft. Given Juulsen may have a career threatening eye injury, we may never know.

2016 - Sergachev and Mete - again in a year we have no 2nd - grest draft.

My take on Timmins: if 2 of KK, Caufield, and Poehling don't pan out, he should at least lose the power to be in charge of forwards - if not fired. In fact I'm ready to strip those powers now.

But very few scouts in the league have drafted this group of D and goalies since 2003:

McDonagh Subban
Streit Sergachev
Mete Fleury
Emelin

Romanov Brook
Harris Juulsen
Struble Norlinder
Fairbrother

Price
Halak

Primeau

Also, a lot of those teams got those players with multiple top 5 or top10 picks. We had a top 3 pick in a very bad year and it seems did well with Sergachev in our other lottery pick.

That is NOT how you should evaluate a head scout. Come on man. Do you know that let say he drafts NOBODY for the next 5 years. You will STILL be able to use that d-men and goalies evaluation? And it would still look good? And that is without drafting NOBODY in the next 5 years. Do you think then it makes sense?

Drafting is not a game. Drafting is a way and for us THE way to get a team to the Cup. And based now on the Salary Cap, it makes NO sense to keep spouting the 2007 draft. 'Cause chances are they won't be with you anymore. And while you could have some nice return for them à la Pacioretty, sometimes you can't à la McDonagh. You cannot sleep on a great draft you had 10 years ago. Even if all those guys are with you, with a Salary cap, if they are that great, they all will ask for 8M$ and you can't keep them. So then it becomes either about the return....or the NEXT guys you draft that will cost you less. And if you remove the last part....it puts an additional stress so that you have no choice but to have a perfect GM that never makes any mistakes.

I just don't get how this job doesn't seem to have any room for criticisms. So when he has top picks, like 2007, see he proves he's great. When he doesn't, like 2008 to 2011, see...it,s not his fault. And sometimes when he has top picks in years that aren't so great like 2o13, see, it's not his fault either. And when none of this happens, well it's the development that sucks.

So in resume, it's NEVER his fault when it doesn't work. And it's ALWAYS because of him when it does. My view, as a fan, it's...because of him if it works OR not. He went with the BPA in 2010 with Gallagher. It works. Was he lucky? Couldn't care less. Good move Trevor. But it's also because of him if as a head scout he had no vision in 2010. That it's false that the LEAGUE wanted him to take Tinordi. 'Cause somehow the LEAGUE wanted Ottawa to pick Karlsson, and the league wanted Nashville to take Ellis in the 2 years prior to 2010. Are every head scout perfect? Of course not. But his run should be over. Time for newer sets of eyes. EVen though he hit the target with Romanov and Primeau. 'Cause in the meantime, other teams also have hit plenty of targets.

 

[26Mats]

That is NOT how you should evaluate a head scout. Come on man. Do you know that let say he drafts NOBODY for the next 5 years. You will STILL be able to use that d-men and goalies evaluation? And it would still look good? And that is without drafting NOBODY in the next 5 years. Do you think then it makes sense?

Drafting is not a game. Drafting is a way and for us THE way to get a team to the Cup. And based now on the Salary Cap, it makes NO sense to keep spouting the 2007 draft. 'Cause chances are they won't be with you anymore. And while you could have some nice return for them à la Pacioretty, sometimes you can't à la McDonagh. You cannot sleep on a great draft you had 10 years ago. Even if all those guys are with you, with a Salary cap, if they are that great, they all will ask for 8M$ and you can't keep them. So then it becomes either about the return....or the NEXT guys you draft that will cost you less. And if you remove the last part....it puts an additional stress so that you have no choice but to have a perfect GM that never makes any mistakes.

I just don't get how this job doesn't seem to have any room for criticisms. So when he has top picks, like 2007, see he proves he's great. When he doesn't, like 2008 to 2011, see...it,s not his fault. And sometimes when he has top picks in years that aren't so great like 2o13, see, it's not his fault either. And when none of this happens, well it's the development that sucks.

So in resume, it's NEVER his fault when it doesn't work. And it's ALWAYS because of him when it does. My view, as a fan, it's...because of him if it works OR not. He went with the BPA in 2010 with Gallagher. It works. Was he lucky? Couldn't care less. Good move Trevor. But it's also because of him if as a head scout he had no vision in 2010. That it's false that the LEAGUE wanted him to take Tinordi. 'Cause somehow the LEAGUE wanted Ottawa to pick Karlsson, and the league wanted Nashville to take Ellis in the 2 years prior to 2010. Are every head scout perfect? Of course not. But his run should be over. Time for newer sets of eyes. EVen though he hit the target with Romanov and Primeau. 'Cause in the meantime, other teams also have hit plenty of targets.

As I've said for years, I'd keep him on as head of goalies and D's and hire someone else as head of forwards - based on his ENTIRE record, not hand-picked years.

But based on MB's first hires for AHL and NHL coach and his overall philosophy and decision making, I have zero confidence in his ability to hire a good head scout. To the point that I'm praying MB doesn't fire Timmins. With MB's new scout, I basically picture this team as the current team without Gallagher, Domi, and Weber - so basically the Houle years all over again.

 

[habergeon]

I'd like to see what kind of player base Mark Hunter could build with 8 years and our infinite resources...

 

[Hannibal]

And some habs fans want Timmins as the GM.

fired this a-hole.

 

[vokiel]

Nice work, it's the same story if you only look at the amount of games played by draftees for the teams drafting them. Timmins has been yammering about projecting careers, using the eye test and focusing on drafting the best player available for his entire tenure. The reality is that none of these philosophies have produced anything particularly better than what's on the other side of the fence.

If you don't have a plan when you sit at a draft table, statistics should, over time, show nothing more than if you're drafting randomly off the Central Scouting list.

It's funny when scouting personnel talks about projecting careers when said careers are now way below 7 years in average.

 

[Habs Icing]

As I've said for years, I'd keep him on as head of goalies and D's and hire someone else as head of forwards - based on his ENTIRE record, not hand-picked years.

But based on MB's first hires for AHL and NHL coach and his overall philosophy and decision making, I have zero confidence in his ability to hire a good head scout. To the point that I'm praying MB doesn't fire Timmins. With MB's new scout, I basically picture this team as the current team without Gallagher, Domi, and Weber - so basically the Houle years all over again.

Would you keep MB as ass't GM because he has a sparkling record when it comes to trades?

I want MB gone but I trust him with a draft more than I trust TT. (i.e. Galchenyuk vs Rielly, KK vs Tkachuk, his trades). You mentioned Romanov and Primeau in another post. I hope you realize Primeau wasn't his choice. He fell into his lap. TT revealed in an after-draft interview that it was a scout that kept hounding him to pick Primeau. He finally relented in the 7th round. My guess is that TT never saw him play because if he saw him play and was so reluctant to pick him it doesn't speak very well of his scouting prowess.

 

[Ozmodiar]

He can't fire Timmins. If he does, then MB has no one else to blame other than himself. Firing Timmins tells the world everything is MB's fault and MB would never admit that while he's the GM.

yes, he’s the last to blame. Firing him is blaming him.
You’re right, after that, no one else to blame. He’ll be next. Firing Timmins buys another year.

 

[Whitesnake]

Strangely, I,m sure that the ones who want to keep Bergevin for his good trades....and Timmins for his 2007 good picks and what APPEARS like good drafts from 17-19 are the same ones who couldn't care less about Michel Therien winning record and wanted him gone anyway.....Double standards....

For me, you do have to go beyond that. You need to go with improving. You need to go with going to another level. Not being satisfied because hey, let's keep him, it's not like he rarely did a Milbury out of himself or because it's not like he never drafted one NHL'er in the last 10 years.....

 

[26Mats]

Would you keep MB as ass't GM because he has a sparkling record when it comes to trades?

I want MB gone but I trust him with a draft more than I trust TT. (i.e. Galchenyuk vs Rielly, KK vs Tkachuk, his trades). You mentioned Romanov and Primeau in another post. I hope you realize Primeau wasn't his choice. He fell into his lap. TT revealed in an after-draft interview that it was a scout that kept hounding him to pick Primeau. He finally relented in the 7th round. My guess is that TT never saw him play because if he saw him play and was so reluctant to pick him it doesn't speak very well of his scouting prowess.

Yes, I'd absolutely keep MB as an Assistant GM. He has a lot of strengths, some of which you mentioned...

I've heard bits and pieces about who wanted who. I'm still unclear about who's philosophy it is to draft for need so much. That would seem to be a GM call. Note MB said on record it's his philosophy to trade down in the draft because he prefers to have multiple picks to increaee his odds. He said that. That's why you see us trading down so much...