Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part 6)

[Frank Drebin]

I'm not saying its all his fault, but like 97% his fault.

 

[Whitesnake]

The Habs in 2010 & 2013 were reacting to physical domination of the just ended season - vs Philly in 2010 playoffs & Sens in 2013 playoffs.

I do not agree with the approach, simply because a draft pick only materializes in 4-5 years (if not longer), and makeups of a team changes constantly in a cap league. Moreover, always draft best talent / skill set at the draft regardless of position - can always use that extra talent to acquire size via trade.

You could react all you want....but if you don't like a player, you don't pick them. Why didn't the Habs picked Hayes or Coyle or Nelson?$ And if the point is that we wanted some beef on the back end, why didn't they pick Petrovic or Nemeth? 'Cause they didn't like them. Well they should not have liked Tinordi too. And especially when you compare him to the others beside him.

Anyway, it will never make any sense. You can pick all the McCarron and Crisp of the world to respond to physical domination, if the only thing they dominate is food, it won't help you.

 

[Milhouse40]

They are talking about the Habs drafting on TSN690 (Grant McKagg with Tony Marinaro) right now.

Oh boy, couldn't listen to it…..but since It's Marinaro and McCagg, i'm sure it sounds like:

McCagg and his Timmins defense on Marinaro...surely looking for a job or something. Geez, this guy is just clueless. So NHL playing games is a criteria. And for the latest drafts too. So rushing kids is not a problem. You play more games, you win. For McCarron, since there was no other forward chosen after him that was great, it doesn't matter how much we screwed that pick. Yet...Theodore would have been neat? SAme thing for Galchy, Galchy is a top scorer of that draft....but nobody would want Rielly instead?

Just another proof that if McCagg could be a scout, everybody here with ressources could do that as well.

Also explains why they keep losing their job....

So bias, it's not even funny.
I could agree that Timmins did very well overall between 2003-2007 but since then it's really terrible almost every single year.

He uses games played but he absolutely need those players from 2003-2007 cause since then, even in games played….Timmins prove he's not good.

In the Bergevin Era between 2012-2018:
Montreal :2117 games played (Note: about 700 games come from players not in the NHL right now)
Nashville: 2519 games played (3 years without 1st round pick)¸
Washington : 2522 games played (With only 4 picks in 2 drafts and without a 1st in one draft)
Anaheim: 2470 games played (In 2011 they drafted for 1570 games played, Habs in 2011 = 369 games played)

I picked 3 teams that were not always picking top 10 and not with multiple 1s rounder either.

But that's still very dumb to compare draft with that criteria.
For me it's simple: Top 6 players + Top 4 D + Starting goalie.
How many you get (cause according to some GM, that's the only way to get those players....others he can find)

For the Habs and Timmins, since 2008 he drafted 1 top 6 forward + 1 top 4 D so far (Gallagher, Sergachev)
For perspective, i'll take the same 3 teams.

Washington: 2 x Top 6 forwards and 2 x Top 4 D and 2 x starting goalie. (6 players overall)
Nashville: One Top 6 forwards and 5 x Top 4 D (6 players overall)
Anaheim: 3 x Top 6 forwards and 7 x Top 4 D and One starting goalie (11 players overall).

Hell, even Pittsburgh who have one pick in the top 20 since 2008 and who didn't pick in the 1st round for 6 drafts manage to do better than Timmins with the Habs. He got Guentzel, Rust, Jarry, Murray and Kapanen.

Horrible drafting since 2008.

 

[Mikah]

I could agree that Timmins did very well overall between 2003-2007 but since then it's really terrible almost every single year.

A lot of Timmins bashing in here. While I am no particular fan of the guy, I think we exagerate quite a bit his responsability.

Everyone assume that the same player would develop the same way no matter where he is drafted. And then we think that we totally missed out on a player we did not draft, but was available. I totally disagree with that, and I think it is a mistake that a lot of organisations are making by investing so much in scouting, and so little in development.

We seem to forget the black hole in development under Lefebvre, and the terrible conditions in St-John. Honestly, I think it has a larger part of the blame for ruining many potential NHLers, instead of blaming Timmins for picking the wrong guys at the draft. Some of those guys would have probably done great elsewhere.

You could take the same guy, and depending on which organisation he is drafted with, he could go from a strong player to a flop. It depends on how he fits with the organisation, whether there is an opening at his position, influenced by the coach or teamates, etc..

I don't know if you have ever followed the AHL teams or know people in there, but it amazes me that even one guy actually can make it to the NHL after 2-3 years in the AHL, let alone the ECHL. From training, food, salary, conditions, everything!

I am convinced that you could fire the whole scouting team, use one of those official drafting list blindly and use all that money you saved in development, and you would probably end up with better players overall.

 

[Guy Larose]

McCagg and his Timmins defense on Marinaro...surely looking for a job or something. Geez, this guy is just clueless. So NHL playing games is a criteria. And for the latest drafts too. So rushing kids is not a problem. You play more games, you win. For McCarron, since there was no other forward chosen after him that was great, it doesn't matter how much we screwed that pick. Yet...Theodore would have been neat? SAme thing for Galchy, Galchy is a top scorer of that draft....but nobody would want Rielly instead?

Just another proof that if McCagg could be a scout, everybody here with ressources could do that as well.

Also explains why they keep losing their job....

He was a scout for 2 years and then let go as far as I know...always seen him as a hack from all the stuff I read.

 

[Whitesnake]

A lot of Timmins bashing in here. While I am no particular fan of the guy, I think we exagerate quite a bit his responsability.

Everyone assume that the same player would develop the same way no matter where he is drafted. And then we think that we totally missed out on a player we did not draft, but was available. I totally disagree with that, and I think it is a mistake that a lot of organisations are making by investing so much in scouting, and so little in development.

We seem to forget the black hole in development under Lefebvre, and the terrible conditions in St-John. Honestly, I think it has a larger part of the blame for ruining many potential NHLers, instead of blaming Timmins for picking the wrong guys at the draft. Some of those guys would have probably done great elsewhere.

You could take the same guy, and depending on which organisation he is drafted with, he could go from a strong player to a flop. It depends on how he fits with the organisation, whether there is an opening at his position, influenced by the coach or teamates, etc..

I don't know if you have ever followed the AHL teams or know people in there, but it amazes me that even one guy actually can make it to the NHL after 2-3 years in the AHL, let alone the ECHL. From training, food, salary, conditions, everything!

I am convinced that you could fire the whole scouting team, use one of those official drafting list blindly and use all that money you saved in development, and you would probably end up with better players overall.

Nobody says that development isn't important. But if it's easy to blame Timmins for everything, it's also easy to blame Lefebvre for everything. At one point, we keep hearing how Timmins couldn't do a lot since he didn't have a lot of picks to work with during those Lefebvre years....yet, Lefebvre was suppose to do miracles with them? Maybe, Lefebvre should have been able to make NHL'ers out of AHL'ers. There are no indication NOWHERE that the players he received should have been key contributors. And for this team, that's what you need. It's not enough to be satisfied with Ryan O'Byrne playing 300 games....

 

[Milhouse40]

A lot of Timmins bashing in here. While I am no particular fan of the guy, I think we exagerate quite a bit his responsability.

Everyone assume that the same player would develop the same way no matter where he is drafted. And then we think that we totally missed out on a player we did not draft, but was available. I totally disagree with that, and I think it is a mistake that a lot of organisations are making by investing so much in scouting, and so little in development.

We seem to forget the black hole in development under Lefebvre, and the terrible conditions in St-John. Honestly, I think it has a larger part of the blame for ruining many potential NHLers, instead of blaming Timmins for picking the wrong guys at the draft. Some of those guys would have probably done great elsewhere.

You could take the same guy, and depending on which organisation he is drafted with, he could go from a strong player to a flop. It depends on how he fits with the organisation, whether there is an opening at his position, influenced by the coach or teamates, etc..

I don't know if you have ever followed the AHL teams or know people in there, but it amazes me that even one guy actually can make it to the NHL after 2-3 years in the AHL, let alone the ECHL. From training, food, salary, conditions, everything!

I am convinced that you could fire the whole scouting team, use one of those official drafting list blindly and use all that money you saved in development, and you would probably end up with better players overall.

Problem is that a lot of guys didn't go through our development system or even played under Lefebvre and the results is pretty much similar for those players, so it's not all on development.

 

[Whitesnake]

He was a scout for 2 years and then let go as far as I know...always seen him as a hack from all the stuff I read.

To me, McCagg has become to scouting what Michel Bergeron has become to commenting.....Polite version : Just another voice. Less polite: Irrelevant.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

like I said, lot issues, Pastrnak is just no one of them...

With his drafting sheet carreer, I would bet Timmins wouldn't pick Pastrnak if he had the choice. He missed on so many talented players.

The best forwards he ever picked is Paccioretty, followed by Gallagher (fluke), A. Kost, Kotkaniemi, Galchenyuk, Lehkonen, and Poehling. This is his result of 17 years of drafting forwards. We eat balloney in Montreal when Boston and Tampa Bay are eating Chateaubriand filet mignon.