Traverse City Prospects Tournament 2019

[The Zetterberg Era]

Considering he was taken directly ahead of Samuel Girard and Carter Hart I think it is a very fair stance. No one is eating crow for a 21 year old that has barely improved since he was drafted too high 3 years ago for playing well against younger greener players.

That is changing the argument though and moving goal posts. I can pick players from any draft lower and that isn't what was said. It was that he is a bust if he doesn't hit the third line... It's a never ending trip down the rabbit hole when you play that game, we can change it to Adam Fox in the third when he does more than Girard. The point was that half the second round doesn't make it and most seem to think every pick should hit when they have these arguments and they usually just look around for the nearest guy like what you just did. Hindsight is 20/20 and regardless we aren't finished watching him develop.

He played tonight against two guys on the Stars taken in front of him that have had no impact at the pro level yet. He also has improved a lot since his draft, he has a full couple steps in his skating, he is bigger and stronger. Plays a reliable defensive game and does a lot of the small things depth guys need to do well. It is exactly what people are saying in terms of stat watchers not understanding why the organizational guys talk about him in a higher esteem than the stat crowd.

21 years old isn't the end of a development arc and not everyone is going to be a star player. We are going to need depth players that do what Smith does when we are good again and we have some time to groom him for that role. People were pounding their chest after Bertuzzi's rough first AHL year as well, these kind of players take a little more time.

 

[MBH]

Spicy take: Lindstrom wasn't nearly as good as I hoped he'd be. To me he was pretty much indistinguishable from the undrafted guys.

Mediocre skater. Struggled defensively.

 

[Henkka]

Spicy take: Lindstrom wasn't nearly as good as I hoped he'd be. To me he was pretty much indistinguishable from the undrafted guys.

Yeah, he was quite average. We can pretty much project him for some years at Griffins. Still see him as very good (safe) partner for Cholowski.

But I won't worry about these RhDs, we have them plenty now, and it will be a really tough competition who will pan out finally as NHL regulars.

 

[MBH]

True that the stats are against 2nd round picks in general, I would still consider any player picked in the round a bust if they don't contribute to the team in a meaningful way.

The reason why I hated the Smith pick is because the 2016 draft was fairly deep in D, Girard, Lindgren, Clague, and Hronek were all picked after Givani. If this team had Girard, we'd be all set on D. Also, Givani was projected to go 3rd or 4th round, so it was a reach pick with less than impressive draft year stats. Picking a prospect in the 2nd round just because he's physical seems like a bad strategy.

Like I said, if he puts up points in the NHL, I will literally go eat crow. Crow season overlaps with duck season where I live, and I'm a man of my word.

Haven't I seen you like tough guys?
Smith's stats have been ugly. Looking at his stats, you'd think he hadn't improved at all.

But nearly every time I watch him, the development camps, in the prospect tournament, in Grand Rapids - he impresses me.

One exception was the first game of this tournament. He was lackluster.

But since game 2? He might be our best player.
Granted, he's 21 and in what? His fourth tournament? He should be good.

I still don't know if he makes it as an NHLer. His first two steps are weak. He's going to have to score or PK to make it, and I'm not sure he'll do either.

But looking back at the 16 draft, we drafted Cholowski and Hronek, And Malmstrom and Sambrook. We took four shots at D.
And looking at the guys drafted after Smith, about the only guys I remember liking are Klague and Sean Day (more of hoping for a home run).

 

[MBH]

Prospect Tournament Grades:
Veleno A- - 7-1-8. +0. Led the Wings in goals, points and shots. Still, there was something about his game that didn't seem as strong as I wanted to see it. A few lazy passes that led to goals against. Not as much hustle as I remembered. But I loved the way he shot the puck. Excited to see how he looks in camp. If he keeps producing, does he force his way in as a center?
G. Smith A - 3-3-6 +4. After a weak opening game, Smith might have been the wings' best player. Skated well. Was physical.
Pearson A - 4-2-6 +1. 14 shots. Yeah, he's 22. And this is his second tournament. But he was pretty good as the tournament went on. Smart. Skates well enough, but not spectacularly. Much better in the tournament than last year. Much better than Development Camp, too.
Ryan Kuffner B+ - 3-5-8. +2. 4 shots. Loved the production. Still, he only had four shots. Didn't quite get as much PP time as some of the others.
Zadina C- - 0-5-5. -2. 15 shots. Something is off about this guy. Doesn't seem to skate very well with the puck. Lots of floaty, lazy passes over the middle. But most importantly, misses the net a lot, and doesn't seem to have that release and velocity. Not saying Zadina isn't still a top 6 prospect. But he seemed like a sure bet for a top line winger at one point. It seems like he should be further ahead than he is. Maybe he wakes up and tears it up in camp, but it's looking almost certain he starts in GR.
Moritz Seider A - 0-4-4. +4. 6 shots. Really good in the defensive zone. Offense was a mixed bag. I loved how physical and engaged he was. The penalties didn't bother me a bit, either. I'm not sure he's ever going to be much of a big force on offense. But with experience, he's going to be a force on defense and the PK. He's the modern Langway kind of defenseman. Size. Speed. IQ.
Hirose C - 1-3-4 +2, 2 shots. Seems like Taro didn't play with much intensity. Maybe it's hard after a successful start to your NHL career to come back to a prospect camp and play inspired hockey. But with Svech, Rasmussen, Veleno Zadina, Erne and other competing for jobs, Hirose shouldn't take anything for granted. All that said, you could see his patience and his IQ often enough.
D'astous B- - 0-4-4 +3 7 shots. Up and down tournament. Inside the ozone blueline, I thought he was our best defenseman. But his skating and defensive reactions are questionable. Starting to wonder who else we have on the left side down in GR.
McLeod B - 1-2-3 +1 7 shots. A bit small and not real physical, but McLeod has good offensive IQ. Should be a good add in GR.
Lindstrom D - 0-1-1 -4 2 shots. Lindstrom got beat too often in one-on-one situations. Struggled with the speed, and maybe with angles he's not accustomed to.
Soderblom C+ - 0-1-1 -1 8 shots - Big kid looked lost at times, but then he'd look really impressive some times. Built on a good development camp. Has done nothing but raise his stock, IMO.
Berglund - C 0-0-0 -1 1 shot. After a good development camp, I was looking forward to watching him. But he didn't stand out much. Got lost on a goal against today.
Regula - C - 0-0-0 +1, 2 shots - In his second tournament, he still looks kind of slow and awkward. Gotta be tough for the big righthanded seeing all these right-handers in front of him.

 

[Henkka]

Who's this Lucky Sid Vicious guy? He seems to be in on a lot of points, but I don't remember ever hearing of him.

He was quite lucky with his point-scoring, Not many chances.

And as 24-year-old, he had quite an edge against other kids.

 

[Gniwder]

That is changing the argument though and moving goal posts. I can pick players from any draft lower and that isn't what was said. It was that he is a bust if he doesn't hit the third line... It's a never ending trip down the rabbit hole when you play that game, we can change it to Adam Fox in the third when he does more than Girard. The point was that half the second round doesn't make it and most seem to think every pick should hit when they have these arguments and they usually just look around for the nearest guy like what you just did. Hindsight is 20/20 and regardless we aren't finished watching him develop.

He played tonight against two guys on the Stars taken in front of him that have had no impact at the pro level yet. He also has improved a lot since his draft, he has a full couple steps in his skating, he is bigger and stronger. Plays a reliable defensive game and does a lot of the small things depth guys need to do well. It is exactly what people are saying in terms of stat watchers not understanding why the organizational guys talk about him in a higher esteem than the stat crowd.

21 years old isn't the end of a development arc and not everyone is going to be a star player. We are going to need depth players that do what Smith does when we are good again and we have some time to groom him for that role. People were pounding their chest after Bertuzzi's rough first AHL year as well, these kind of players take a little more time.

Valid points about Smith, but I don't think I'm moving the goal post at all. All of those players were projected to go sooner than Smith, Girard was projected to go first round. I hated the pick the moment the Wings made the pick, it's not just hindsight. A lot of people here hated the pick.

Tyler Wright had a habit of reaching with 2nd round picks. If Givani was picked using the 4th rounder, I'd be a little more enthusiastic. At this point, it is what it is. As a Wings fan, I hope it works out.

How many points we talking here?

Third line contributor, so I'd say 15 goals or 30 points in at least 2 seasons would be a fair measure. Clutterbuck managed to hit that threshold 3 times, so I don't think it's unreasonable. If he puts up 20 goals or 40 points like Abby did, I guess I'll have to eat 2 crows, lol.

If Givani can't get at least 10 goals per season as a 4th liner, then he's a flop. Look at contenders and even their 4th liners score double digit goals. Scoring isn't just a stat, it's what wins games.

 

[MBH]

He was quite lucky with his point-scoring, Not many chances.

And as 24-year-old, he had quite an edge against other kids.

He's a speedy guy who goes to the net. Minor league talent. But way more mature than everyone.

 

[Henkka]

At last year's Tournament Veleno had 2+5=7 points in 4 games (3rd best scorer after Jason Robertson), and Zadina 1+2=3 points.

Cholowski 2+4 (highest scoring defenceman), Rasmussen 3+2, McIsaac 1+1.

I remember that 2018 group had good 1st line, but no depth. Also Fulcher did suck like this year again. This year there was that depth in 2-3 lines, thanks to Hirose, Kuffner, MacLeod, mostly these free addons which all could be Yzerman signings.

Still, this 2019 team was quite young, they trusted more young prospects in key roles, maybe more than other teams, imo. That's very promising. Dallas had great overall defence, but there was also 25-year old seasoned European pro Emil Djuse at key role. Toronto had seasoned 24-year old European pro Kivihalme at key role etc. We had 18-year old Seider.

 

[deca guard]

maliks extensive coverage from today . ''wild and untamed stallion'' , guess who ?
Impressions from the Red Wings’ championship win over the Dallas Stars at the prospect tournament ’19

 

[Claypool]

Valid points about Smith, but I don't think I'm moving the goal post at all. All of those players were projected to go sooner than Smith, Girard was projected to go first round. I hated the pick the moment the Wings made the pick, it's not just hindsight. A lot of people here hated the pick.

Which projections are you referring to? Bob McKenzie, The Hockey News and Central Scouting all had Girard in the 40-50 range.

 

[newfy]

where do you think would have been an appropriate spot for a forward that just got outscored by Brian Lashoff on the same team to have gone?

I think its pretty likely hell play in the NHL over a few of those guys ahead of him for sure. He might only be a third or fourth liner but he fills a roll and does it well. When you actually watch him play instead of talking about his production he always looks better than the stat line. I bet he makes his NHL debut at some point this year

 

[Gniwder]

Which projections are you referring to? Bob McKenzie, The Hockey News and Central Scouting all had Girard in the 40-50 range.

To be honest I don't remember. Maybe it was an early season poll or maybe he was projected second round. Since you've looked it up, tell me where Givani was in those projections. I remember he was 80 - 90 range at best.

Edit: Nevermind, I found the Central Scouting for 2016 with Girard at 38, Givani at 54. Less spread than I remember, but I still don't like the pick.

Bob McK had Girard at 45, Givani at 70.

 

[Henkka]

Who really cares about those rankings? Just get over it. Bertuzzi drafted too high... how much energy was lost for whining about that.

Players are ranked differently in different organizations, and career paths are different. Needs are different. Draft tactics are different.

And some Bob MacKenzie rankings are nothing compared to NHL organizations, who are best on their jobs. Bob maybe hears rumours from his connections for the 1st round, then he knows nothing. Some organizations are better, some are worse, but even worse organizations are better than any public consensus list, I'm sure about that.

Only REAL conclusions of results you can make looking 10 years behind.

 

[Claypool]

Who really cares about those rankings? Just get over it. Bertuzzi drafted too high... how much energy was lost for whining about that.

Players are ranked differently in different organizations, and career paths are different. Needs are different. Draft tactics are different.

And some Bob MacKenzie rankings are nothing compared to NHL organizations, who are best on their jobs. Bob maybe hears rumours from his connections for the 1st round, then he knows nothing. Some organizations are better, some are worse, but even worse organizations are better than any public consensus list, I'm sure about that.

Only REAL conclusions of results you can make looking 10 years behind.

Rankings don't really matter. I just like to point out when people are wrong using facts.

 

[Gniwder]

Who really cares about those rankings? Just get over it. Bertuzzi drafted too high... how much energy was lost for whining about that.

Players are ranked differently in different organizations, and career paths are different. Needs are different. Draft tactics are different.

And some Bob MacKenzie rankings are nothing compared to NHL organizations, who are best on their jobs. Bob maybe hears rumours from his connections for the 1st round, then he knows nothing. Some organizations are better, some are worse, but even worse organizations are better than any public consensus list, I'm sure about that.

Only REAL conclusions of results you can make looking 10 years behind.

If we get to use hindsight, then I really hate the pick since Girard got picked with the very next pick.

 

[ManwithNoIdentity]

Wow 3-0-1 while trailing in every game?

I haven’t been this excited about our franchise in years

 

[Go Wings]

That is changing the argument though and moving goal posts. I can pick players from any draft lower and that isn't what was said. It was that he is a bust if he doesn't hit the third line... It's a never ending trip down the rabbit hole when you play that game, we can change it to Adam Fox in the third when he does more than Girard. The point was that half the second round doesn't make it and most seem to think every pick should hit when they have these arguments and they usually just look around for the nearest guy like what you just did. Hindsight is 20/20 and regardless we aren't finished watching him develop.

He played tonight against two guys on the Stars taken in front of him that have had no impact at the pro level yet. He also has improved a lot since his draft, he has a full couple steps in his skating, he is bigger and stronger. Plays a reliable defensive game and does a lot of the small things depth guys need to do well. It is exactly what people are saying in terms of stat watchers not understanding why the organizational guys talk about him in a higher esteem than the stat crowd.

21 years old isn't the end of a development arc and not everyone is going to be a star player. We are going to need depth players that do what Smith does when we are good again and we have some time to groom him for that role. People were pounding their chest after Bertuzzi's rough first AHL year as well, these kind of players take a little more time.

I'm not talking about half the 2nd round of the third round. I am speaking about the 2 players that were drafted directly after him. One looks like a top 4 offensive dman and the other looks like a franchise goaltending.

Depth players are the easiest thing to find in the NHL today. Every year there are many unsigned depth players that could easily be plugged into the bottom 2 lines. Hell Detroit right now has a bunch in the AHL. You don't try to get a depth player with a higher 2nd round pick, that is a waste of a pick.

I love how everyone keeps bringing up Bertuzzi that is ONE example in the last number of years, again there are many more examples of players going bust then there id about developing a guy like Bertuzzi in Detroit.

 

[izlez]

Depth players are the easiest thing to find in the NHL today. Every year there are many unsigned depth players that could easily be plugged into the bottom 2 lines. Hell Detroit right now has a bunch in the AHL.

It's really not as easy as you think. BAD 3rd and 4th liners that shouldn't be in the NHL? Sure. The best 3rd and 4th line in the NHL that can help you win a championship? Not so much

You don't try to get a depth player with a higher 2nd round pick, that is a waste of a pick.

You think people in the organization looked at Giovanni, said to themselves, "This guy is 100% a 4th liner in the NHL. No better and no worse. But we want him over these much better hockey players!" That is ridiculous and not how it works. They picked him because they hoped he was going to be good.

I love how everyone keeps bringing up Bertuzzi that is ONE example in the last number of years, again there are many more examples of players going bust then there id about developing a guy like Bertuzzi in Detroit.

As with every team, because that is how it works. It's hard to find good players

 

[vladdy16]

I simply don't agree, we watched something different is all I can say. Veleno was okay down the middle, I just didn't think he had his best skating legs, he didn't do anything to really actively harm us and that is fine, thought he could have brought more but put in a workmen like performance.

Zadina spit up the puck all over the place down the boards in both zones, he got better when they finally moved his line.

As for Kuffner and Smith they more actively did what you were talking about in terms of grinding through the tougher parts. Most the team had a rough second until the end, but the depth lines were at least getting some grind time in the zones which they needed. Really encouraged by that entering Kuffner's game in terms of he was good below the goal-line in the offensive zone.

But I think both the big guys have more to give up front. They didn't get picked on a ton defensively, just wanted more punch up front. Zadina got put with Pearson and Smith in part because of how well they were playing.

Good effort to fight through going down a D, still I want more from Veleno and Zadina if we want to win tomorrow. Good news I think both guys can give more and I think they will. I just am not going with the narrative that they put the team on their back. Mo was fantastic after his meltdown in the first, really played well in the second and third. Dude is a stud.

MacLeod really stood out to me again, super happy we have signed him.

Yeah, I think there is a giant gap between players like Veleno and Zadina, and players like Kuffner, Pearson, and Macleod.

Crediting Kuffners puck possession performance against Toronto is bizarre to me. He was having 'Pulkkinen in the nhl' like struggles out there.

Zadina had a terrible tournament, but was important creating offense, especially in 3rd periods, and in his sleep he enters the zone dangerously. Veleno carried the team offensively, defensively and structurally.

The games were way more structured and competitive than could be expected, and the teams we went up against were deeper than us. I dont see any way we win under those conditions, without stellar performances/contributions from your no. 1 center.

 

[MBH]

Past prospect tournament stats
07
McGrath 2-3-5 9 shots
Grigorenko 0-5-5 6 shots
J Ericsson 3-1-4 12 shots
Mursak 1-1-2 11 shots
Ryno 0-2-2 11 shots
Kindl 0-0-0 +2 4 shots


08
Emmerton 3-3-6
D Axelsson 1-1-2
Abdelkader 1-0-1 10 shots
Mursak 1-0-1
Ritola 1-1-2
Kindl 0-0-0 +3 13 shots

09
Tatar 3-2-5 +5 5 shots
Mursak 2-3-5 15 shots
Emmerton 1-2-3 12 shots
Nestrasil 1-2-3 7 shots
Kolosov 0-3-3 +4
Callahan 1-0-1
Almqvist 0-1-1
D Axelsson 0-1-1

2010
Tatar in 2010 3-1-4 10 shots in 4 games
B. Smith 0-0-1 + 5 6 shots
J Andersson 0-0-0 14 shots
Nestrasil 0-0-0 9 shots
Ferraro 0-2-2 15 shots

11
Nyquist 1-4-5 12 shots
Sproul 3-1-4 8 shots
Andersson 2-1-3
Tvrdon 2-1-3
Callahan 0-3-3
B Smith 1-1-2 14 shots
XO 1-0-1 10 shots
Nestrasil 0-1-1
Ferraro 0-1-1 14 shots
Jurco 0-0-0 (2 games)

Nothing for 12

13
Mantha 3-2-5 17 shots
Pulkkinen 1-4-5 10 shots
XO 1-4-5 12 shots
AA - 3-0-3 15 shots
Jurco 2-1-3 19 shots
Nastasiuk 2-1-3 6 shots
Sproul 0-3-3
Sheahan 2-0-2
Frk 1-1-2
Tvrdon 0-2-2
Marchenko 0-1-1
Bertuzzi 0-0-0
Jarnkrok 0-0-0

14
AA - 4-2-6 13 shots
Mantha 4-1-5 10 shots
Bert 3-2-5 11 shots
Frk 1-4-5
Tvrdon 0-4-4
Hickets 2-1-3
Sproul 1-2-4
Nosek 2-0-2
Backman 0-2-2

15
Nosek 3-2-5
AA 2-3-5
Larkin 1-4-5
Svech 1-3-4
Saarijarvi 1-2-3
Mantha 2-0-2
Bert 0-1-1
Turgeon 0-0-0

16
Bert 4-1-5 17 shots
Svech 1-2-3 12 shots
Hronek 1-2-3 9 shots
Turgeon 1-0-1
G Smith 0-0-0

17
Sadowny 2-0-2 14 14 shots
Holmstrom 1-1-2
Turgeon 0-1-1
Sambrook 1-0-1
Cholo 1-0-1
Rasmussen 0-1-1
Svech 0-1-1
Saarijarvi 0-1-1
Hronek 0-0-0
G Smith 0-0-0
Sulak 0-0-0 -6

18
Veleno 2-5-7
Cholo 2-4-6
Rasmussen 3-2-5
Zadina 1-2-3
Smith 2-0-2
MciSaac 1-1-2
Holmstorm 1-0-1
Saarijarvi 0-1-1
Pope 0-1-1
Regula 0-1-1
Ehn 0-0-0

19
Veleno 7-1-8 17 shots
Kuffner 3-5-8
Pearson 4-2-6 14 shots
Smith 3-3-6 15 shots
Zadina 0-5-5 15 shots
Hirose 1-3-4
Seider 0-4-4
Lindstrom 1-0-1
Soderblom 0-1-1
Regular 0-0-0
Brglund 0-0-0

 

[waltdetroit]

The Hockey writers tournament recap. Wings 1st five minutes

The Hockey News Podcast: Traverse City Prospect Tournament recap - TheHockeyNews

 

[Fil Larkmanthanasiou]

Other than size, skating, strength, competitiveness, positioning, decision making, leadership, passing, shot and a bit of mean streak there really wasn't much to like about Seider's game at the tournament.

 

[Christien]

The Hockey writers tournament recap. Wings 1st five minutes

The Hockey News Podcast: Traverse City Prospect Tournament recap - TheHockeyNews

I'm a really big fan of Ryan Kennedy. He was big on Seider when not a lot of people were, Thanks for sharing this

 

[raymond23]

11 observations from the Red Wings’ title-winning prospect tournament
11 observations from the Red Wings' title-winning prospect...