Training Camp Thread (Thursday = day off)

[Flying Dego]

Jarry gonna ball out this year. The fans that were hesitant on him will see the light.

He is gonna remind us that a goalie can play games without giving up a mind numbing blunder consistently.

Saw the one analytic say he ranks around #23 or so? At least his bar is low. I think he comes in closer to #10.

 

[SEALBound]

Yohe:

I have an idea...

Play him? Brilliant!

Or...could he be our new 3RW!!!!?

All kidding aside, once camps and the first couple of games shake out, there may come a team knocking in need of a cheap PMD like him.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

No worries, CC will do that all by himself. Just hand him his stick, and let him go do his thing.

No, I mean in a way that the team won’t simultaneously ignore, defend and reward. Like messing with his alarm clock and car so he’s always late, itching powder in his equipment, etc.

 

[The Old Master]

lol what are you talking about?

i have little trust with sully. he'll probably go just the opposite just to show how smart he is and how little we know.

 

[The Old Master]

It'd be cool if we stopped going "Ah shucks, we gotta play these guys we signed that suck shit--we have no other options" while Riikola, and to a lesser extent Ruhwedel, sit in the wings, both better options than the likes of JJ, Schultz, and now Ceci.

Riikola was, at times, one of our better defensemen last season. Beating out JJ, Schultz, Ruhwedel, Trotman, and Petts for stretches of play when he was actually allowed to dress for games. He was re-signed, and at a cap hit that's not insignificant. Maybe they'll feel obligated to play him because he's not making league minimum.

you can add the "bad" letang to that list.

 

[Gurglesons]

i have little trust with sully. he'll probably go just the opposite just to show how smart he is and how little we know.

Sullivan is the reason the league went to an uptempo style.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Sullivan is the reason the league went to an uptempo style.

Whenever a team wins the cup, that style that won, becomes the trend until it doesn't anymore.

When LA won, it was the big heavy players, Chicago took that and threw in a little bit of speed and won a couple of times, Pens decided they can't do heavy well at all so they went full on speed and won back 2 back, the rest of the league went speed and then Sullivan started to coach a slower team, he actively played slower players when we legit had some quicker players and also couldn't evolve his system.

Sullivan the last 3 years has been out coached in the playoffs when it really becomes a battle of wits. To me, I don't give a flying f*** what a coach does in the regular season, when the playoffs start, it's not checkers anymore, it's Chess and Sullivan is playing Connect Four.

Blues won with adding some size to their speed, then Tampa won because of their immense depth of talent and speed. So that speed style is still in the DNA of the league now, its one of those things that won't go back, you'll see heavy players being fast (Blues) but blokes like Olli Maatta are on the Kings now because they will never adapt and their hockey IQ will never let them stay longer when their contract is up.

 

[ColePens]

Whenever a team wins the cup, that style that won, becomes the trend until it doesn't anymore.

When LA won, it was the big heavy players, Chicago took that and threw in a little bit of speed and won a couple of times, Pens decided they can't do heavy well at all so they went full on speed and won back 2 back, the rest of the league went speed and then Sullivan started to coach a slower team, he actively played slower players when we legit had some quicker players and also couldn't evolve his system.

Sullivan the last 3 years has been out coached in the playoffs when it really becomes a battle of wits. To me, I don't give a flying f*** what a coach does in the regular season, when the playoffs start, it's not checkers anymore, it's Chess and Sullivan is playing Connect Four.

Blues won with adding some size to their speed, then Tampa won because of their immense depth of talent and speed. So that speed style is still in the DNA of the league now, its one of those things that won't go back, you'll see heavy players being fast (Blues) but blokes like Olli Maatta are on the Kings now because they will never adapt and their hockey IQ will never let them stay longer when their contract is up.

Oh I don't know man... I saw a HUUUUUUGE change after the Pens went b2b. It was from lineup to style of play. It changed so damn fast. It was 10x more than anything I can remember.

 

[Gurglesons]

Whenever a team wins the cup, that style that won, becomes the trend until it doesn't anymore.

When LA won, it was the big heavy players, Chicago took that and threw in a little bit of speed and won a couple of times, Pens decided they can't do heavy well at all so they went full on speed and won back 2 back, the rest of the league went speed and then Sullivan started to coach a slower team, he actively played slower players when we legit had some quicker players and also couldn't evolve his system.

Sullivan the last 3 years has been out coached in the playoffs when it really becomes a battle of wits. To me, I don't give a flying f*** what a coach does in the regular season, when the playoffs start, it's not checkers anymore, it's Chess and Sullivan is playing Connect Four.

Blues won with adding some size to their speed, then Tampa won because of their immense depth of talent and speed. So that speed style is still in the DNA of the league now, its one of those things that won't go back, you'll see heavy players being fast (Blues) but blokes like Olli Maatta are on the Kings now because they will never adapt and their hockey IQ will never let them stay longer when their contract is up.

I'm not sure what your point here is.

Joel Quenneville's teams have won 4 games since his last Stanley Cup in the playoffs. Does that make him a bad coach now?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I'm not sure what your point here is.

I hate this team right now and I don't know how to express myself about it until its fixed.

 

[Gurglesons]

I hate this team right now and I don't know how to express myself about it until its fixed.

I mean, you gotta work on that.

There is no reason to hate a team that fell in love with their cup teams. Hagelin, Hornqvist, Schultz, Sheary, etc. These players needed to go even though they are still effective NHLers. You don't win again by staying stale.

I think the point has been made many times, but I doubt we win back to back without the adversity of losing Letang even though Letang would have been lights out for us that year.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Oh I don't know man... I saw a HUUUUUUGE change after the Pens went b2b. It was from lineup to style of play. It changed so damn fast. It was 10x more than anything I can remember.

I'd say the team is about as fast as they were when they won back 2 back right now, let's see how this plays out. I don't think the players were as much of an issue as the cohesiveness of the team was just being destroyed. Too many things were being changed back and forth, like I guess now McCann is finally a LW? We thought he would be a 3rd line LW, but now Sullivan after the 2nd practice still thinks he's a top 6 winger? In what world?

I am very frustrated with all of this right now. It's January, we should be heavy into hockey talk but as much as I want to talk hockey, I want to smash things for knowing what this team has become the last 3yrs and what I will likely expect this year and going forward until an epic mass firing. 30+ years being a fan and right now, I am probably about as angry as when the team was on the verge of being moved.

 

[cygnus47]

Oh I don't know man... I saw a HUUUUUUGE change after the Pens went b2b. It was from lineup to style of play. It changed so damn fast. It was 10x more than anything I can remember.

It happened in 2017 when Letang got injured. We went from a two player forecheck with a high pressure defensive game to being a trap team, letting the D have the puck at the blueline and collapsing to the net and we haven't gone back since. We've barely had a breakaway or oddman rush in 3 years. Not sure how many have noticed that.

Us winning in 2017 was like all the bad luck from 2010-2015 coming back around. Fleury, Murray, Sid, Geno, Guentz and Phil were all on a stupid hot streak. We were outplayed for most of the Isles series, all of the Washington series, almost lost to Ottawa that had one elite player and a submissive gameplan, then were left with Nashville that didn't have their top centre and were completely worn out. That was one of the luckiest runs in recent history.

 

[Tom Hanks]

It happened in 2017 when Letang got injured. We went from a two player forecheck with a high pressure defensive game to being a trap team, letting the D have the puck at the blueline and collapsing to the net and we haven't gone back since. We've barely had a breakaway or oddman rush in 3 years. Not sure how many have noticed that.

Us winning in 2017 was like all the bad luck from 2010-2015 coming back around. Fleury, Murray, Sid, Geno, Guentz and Phil were all on a stupid hot streak. We were outplayed for most of the Isles series, all of the Washington series, almost lost to Ottawa that had one elite player and a submissive gameplan, then were left with Nashville that didn't have their top centre and were completely worn out. That was one of the luckiest runs in recent history.

We were probably outplayed in the Isles series because we went to the wrong rink and smashed Columbus

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I'm not sure what your point here is.

Joel Quenneville's teams have won 4 games since his last Stanley Cup in the playoffs. Does that make him a bad coach now?

No, it means a couple of things (and I know what you were aiming at, wanker)...

1. He won with a system that was very successful, as a head coach currently in the NHL, no one has won 3 cups with 1 team the way he has in recent years. He won with a system that is his style, but when the league started to change, he didn't seem to adapt to it and just stuck to it, you know...a stick-to-itiveness, his standard is the standard, we do what we do baby, he didn't live in his fears, but he sure as shit didn't acknowledge it either.
2. To stay relevant in the NHL, you can either keep winning in the regular season like Dan Bylsma did, one of the most successful head coaches in the salary cap era was also one of the worst in the playoffs given the team he had, why? He could adapt in season but when the playoffs came, he couldn't make the adjustments, as a matter of fact, he was stubborn about making changes to HIS system, thinking it meant HIS system wasn't good enough, when in reality, his system was fine when given adjustments and planning (ie: Isles series, they took it the Pens with speed and grit, Bylsma refused to dress TK, when he was in, he was a spark plug, infectious to the roster, they won, he reverted back to his ignorance and they lost later on).

Sullivan suffers from that, sure he can fix things in season, shows willingness, but even lately, he's sort of been stubborn and more panic-y with his line-up usage and choices, like he can't commit to a style this team should be, a team with too many identities trying to be the identity he won the cup with 2x. The playoffs is where you earn your salary, getting in is a grind and a half, yeah, but the playoffs? That's where the coaches really shine. Are there really playoff disappearing acts by players? No, hardly. Kessel was considered a bad playoff player until he was a Penguin, why? He fit the coaching style Sullivan employed.

The last 3yrs, the playoffs start and Sullivan seems unwilling to make adjustments to the other team. He just does this "we'll play our game and we've been doing it allllll yeeeaaaaar!' sort of crap. It's the Mike Sullivan version of "grind'em bitches down" ignorance of my way worked before, so it's obviously not m.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

It happened in 2017 when Letang got injured. We went from a two player forecheck with a high pressure defensive game to being a trap team, letting the D have the puck at the blueline and collapsing to the net and we haven't gone back since. We've barely had a breakaway or oddman rush in 3 years. Not sure how many have noticed that.

Us winning in 2017 was like all the bad luck from 2010-2015 coming back around. Fleury, Murray, Sid, Geno, Guentz and Phil were all on a stupid hot streak. We were outplayed for most of the Isles series, all of the Washington series, almost lost to Ottawa that had one elite player and a submissive gameplan, then were left with Nashville that didn't have their top centre and were completely worn out. That was one of the luckiest runs in recent history.

The trap is Jacques Martin's trademark.

It makes me wonder who was really coaching that team the 2 cups. It looks like Tocchet & Martin's finger prints are all over it (you watch the Yotes and they play that offensive style the Pens did, but without the defensive structure that Martin implemented), when Tocchet left, was it more Martin's style? Do we even know what Sullivan's actual style is? Or the last 3yrs were it?

 

[Gurglesons]

No, it means a couple of things (and I know what you were aiming at, wanker)...

1. He won with a system that was very successful, as a head coach currently in the NHL, no one has won 3 cups with 1 team the way he has in recent years. He won with a system that is his style, but when the league started to change, he didn't seem to adapt to it and just stuck to it, you know...a stick-to-itiveness, his standard is the standard, we do what we do baby, he didn't live in his fears, but he sure as shit didn't acknowledge it either.
2. To stay relevant in the NHL, you can either keep winning in the regular season like Dan Bylsma did, one of the most successful head coaches in the salary cap era was also one of the worst in the playoffs given the team he had, why? He could adapt in season but when the playoffs came, he couldn't make the adjustments, as a matter of fact, he was stubborn about making changes to HIS system, thinking it meant HIS system wasn't good enough, when in reality, his system was fine when given adjustments and planning (ie: Isles series, they took it the Pens with speed and grit, Bylsma refused to dress TK, when he was in, he was a spark plug, infectious to the roster, they won, he reverted back to his ignorance and they lost later on).

Sullivan suffers from that, sure he can fix things in season, shows willingness, but even lately, he's sort of been stubborn and more panic-y with his line-up usage and choices, like he can't commit to a style this team should be, a team with too many identities trying to be the identity he won the cup with 2x. The playoffs is where you earn your salary, getting in is a grind and a half, yeah, but the playoffs? That's where the coaches really shine. Are there really playoff disappearing acts by players? No, hardly. Kessel was considered a bad playoff player until he was a Penguin, why? He fit the coaching style Sullivan employed.

The last 3yrs, the playoffs start and Sullivan seems unwilling to make adjustments to the other team. He just does this "we'll play our game and we've been doing it allllll yeeeaaaaar!' sort of crap. It's the Mike Sullivan version of "grind'em bitches down" ignorance of my way worked before, so it's obviously not m.

He has done that in one series and it was largely because they had no run up to it and he figured they would figure it out.

I want Sullivan gone, but he has done a ton for this team.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

He has done that in one series and it was largely because they had no run up to it and he figured they would figure it out.

I want Sullivan gone, but he has done a ton for this team.

That goes both ways, good and bad.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Ah, the "PK guys". As if it takes a master tactician and teacher to show guys how to cover angles and clear pucks.

Um... There's more to it than that. There are such things as cycles and one can get lost in that since the other team has an extra man. Get one man lost and you can recover, but get two or three, like has happen quite a few times last season with 3 guys in the corner on a puck battle and 1 covering 2/3 guys in the front.

You can teach the position, but are they willing to sacrifice themselves to blocking shots?

You know, how they struggled on the PK last year... That wasn't all on Murray. Many unforced failed clears.

 

[Peat]

Um... There's more to it than that. There are such things as cycles and one can get lost in that since the other team has an extra man. Get one man lost and you can recover, but get two or three, like has happen quite a few times last season with 3 guys in the corner on a puck battle and 1 covering 2/3 guys in the front.

You can teach the position, but are they willing to sacrifice themselves to blocking shots?

You know, how they struggled on the PK last year... That wasn't all on Murray. Many unforced failed clears.

Are you referring to a particular time period? Because they were a top ten PK last year, which isn't my idea of struggle.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Are you referring to a particular time period? Because they were a top ten PK last year, which isn't my idea of struggle.

Pens were outside of the top 10 (18th in 2017-18, and 19th in 2018-19) for the previous 2 years, they were literally 10th in the "top 10." Just a few more kill successes than the Flyers and Jackets.

Btw, back to back cup years?

5th in the first cup.
20th in the 2nd cup.

Talk about a highly inconsistent PK.

I don't like the whole "couldn't block shots for Murray" bs.

Stats last year.

Jarry
SV% ES - .929
SV% SH - .960

Murray
SV% ES - .901
SV% SH - .919

Maybe Murray should have tried harder blocking shots with his pads. But I do find it interesting the PP SV% being so whacky. Pens also allowed the 6th fewest shots against per game in the league.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Are you referring to a particular time period? Because they were a top ten PK last year, which isn't my idea of struggle.

And this year has the potential to be even better in that regard, with the improved goaltending.

I think we'll get more shorties as well, with a combination of Tanev, Kapanen and Rust.
Zucker would make a great PK'er imo and is fast as hell, so I wonder if they'll use him there too. He's already gonna have fewer minutes since he can't crack PP1.

Looking at this roster, we really are loaded with defensively responsible forwards. Moreso than any year in recent memory.
Think about it. Who's our worst forward in that regard? Malkin? Even he made huge strides last year in contributing that way.

Would not be surprised in the slightest if we rank higher in GA/G than GF/G. Will not be easy to torch this team if the goaltending holds. And for all the people trashing our bottom pair, if Riikola plays he does not get on scored on very much at all.

Us being top 5 in team defense is pretty realistic IMO. Why not?

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I haven't seen people mention Jarry's stickhandling abilities recently. That'll add a nice dimension to the team.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I haven't seen people mention Jarry's stickhandling abilities recently. That'll add a nice dimension to the team.

Easier, quicker exits. Another reason our GA/G will do down.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Good interview from Zucker. More thoughtful than most players cookie-cutter answers. Pretty well spoken guy.
Rapidly becoming one of my favorites on the team. Hope he slays it this year.