Pre-Game Talk: Training Camp Roster and Schedule

[Fig]

Lmao this post is a perfect microcosm of your perspective… he was goalie of the year in the second best league in back to back seasons. What more can a guy do to earn a shot? Furthermore, what have Vladar and Markstrom done to keep their spots?

I say this with the utmost respect when I say that I'd agree with this opinion next season, but not this season. You've identified tons of prospect talent far earlier than the rest of us. I think we are on track to match the Saros graduation path with Wolf.

I do think some prospects got a raw deal while in our org, but honestly speaking as long as Wolf gets around 8-9 games this season and looks good enough for more/full time next season, he is not getting a raw deal IMO. Even better if we can get him a 20 game load and receive an average of .915+. Based on who we drafted, I think only Pospisil, MEP and Phillips would be considered earlier, but all these guys did or did not get a full time position for reasonable reasons. These guys are still in line.

Il Niko and Pelletier are from the same draft as Wolf. Zary the next one with Kuznetsov, Poirier, Kerins and Solovyov.

IMO, Wolf is next in line along with Zary. It might be middle this season depending on injuries and how well they perform when they get in, but IMO as long as they keep tracking this way, it should be for sure by start of next season.

Solo being one of the potential last cuts is not unfair to Zary, Poirier and Kuznetsov. I do think it is based on hard work and merit. Wolf is a 7th rounder. A similar concept is there as well. "We will try to find a way to make room this season, but if not this season, as long as you stay on track, you will get it next season" is not unreasonable for Wolf's situation IMO

Levi is 8 months younger and got 7 games last season for the Sabres with a .905 Sv%. I want that for Wolf this season, but if he gets 7 games with over .915%, then I think he deserves another 7 game. Then repeat.

OT: I kinda miss the Hartley 7 game way of tracking performance.

 

[DFF]

Zary pretty has one more year to prove he belongs

He is the 2nd highest player in his draft class without any NHL game.

 

[Fig]

All I see in Zary is 4th line upside tbh

I would have agreed as of last season, but after this season (and I'm happy to see him look like he's shaking off the injury stuff), I see at minimum a bottom 9 jack of all trades Stajan type of possibility with him.

I certain agree that I'd seal off the Thomas or Horvat type of comparable to him. Not sure if Brassard is still a decent comparable on the table... but if we even get a middle 6 version of those guys or a Brassard, it's an excellent pick at 24 after trading down twice from... 19? and grabbing... Poirier and Boltmann as freebies on the way down. Even if Boltmann is a write off (and I truly hope he succeeds), Poirier isn't and is a awesome piece to have in the pipeline.

EDIT: After reading up on Boltmann a 4/5 dman of a Kris Russell, Derek Engelland ilk seems to be his upside. I'm happy with that and I hope he reaches it.

 

[JPeeper]

Basically, ancient history with no continuity with present day - ie. Craig Button, whom should never have been a GM, passing on a player he didn't even know (Martin St. Louis) = Calgary Flames never give opportunities to young players.

Pretty much, people get one idea in their head then build this narrative around it even though most of the evidence points to the contrary. Flames haven't graduated prospects?

Monahan and Tkachuk both make the team after getting drafted, Gaudreau never played in the AHL and it looks like Coronato will take the same route, current Flames who have graduated who played in the AHL and are on the team/will make the team this year: Dube, Mangiapane, Andersson, Kylington, Ruzicka. There is also Jankowski who got called up early in the year and stayed. TJ Brodie graduated after playing in the A. Markus Granlund, Michel Ferland, Lance Bouma, all prospects who graduated.

The Markstrom hate is also ridiculous, it's like people forget that he was playing very good the last couple months, yes he cost the team a ton of points the first 2/3 of the year, but he picked it up when they were trying to make a push for the playoffs. He's a year away from a Vezna candidate and is making $6 mil for 3 more years, they aren't just going to throw him away and give Wolf the starter who hasn't proven anything in the NHL because he won an MVP in a lower league.

 

[Anglesmith]

Why are people still pretending that Wolf being sent down means he won't be getting his NHL shot this year?

The difference isn't between NHL or no NHL. It's between NHL games only (worse) or AHL and NHL games (better).

Based on off-season comments, almost a slam dunk that he sees NHL game action in October, probably more than once.

 

[Anglesmith]

The Markstrom hate is also ridiculous, it's like people forget that he was playing very good the last couple months, yes he cost the team a ton of points the first 2/3 of the year, but he picked it up when they were trying to make a push for the playoffs. He's a year away from a Vezna candidate and is making $6 mil for 3 more years, they aren't just going to throw him away and give Wolf the starter who hasn't proven anything in the NHL because he won an MVP in a lower league.

I still don't even feel like the team gave him a chance to put up numbers last year with their break but don't bend defensive system. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how little our fanbase seemed to notice the gigantic uptick in uncontested odd-man rush opportunities and undefended slot chances last year amid the stellar possession stats.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

I say this with the utmost respect when I say that I'd agree with this opinion next season, but not this season. You've identified tons of prospect talent far earlier than the rest of us. I think we are on track to match the Saros graduation path with Wolf.

I do think some prospects got a raw deal while in our org, but honestly speaking as long as Wolf gets around 8-9 games this season and looks good enough for more/full time next season, he is not getting a raw deal IMO. Even better if we can get him a 20 game load and receive an average of .915+. Based on who we drafted, I think only Pospisil, MEP and Phillips would be considered earlier, but all these guys did or did not get a full time position for reasonable reasons. These guys are still in line.

Il Niko and Pelletier are from the same draft as Wolf. Zary the next one with Kuznetsov, Poirier, Kerins and Solovyov.

IMO, Wolf is next in line along with Zary. It might be middle this season depending on injuries and how well they perform when they get in, but IMO as long as they keep tracking this way, it should be for sure by start of next season.

Solo being one of the potential last cuts is not unfair to Zary, Poirier and Kuznetsov. I do think it is based on hard work and merit. Wolf is a 7th rounder. A similar concept is there as well. "We will try to find a way to make room this season, but if not this season, as long as you stay on track, you will get it next season" is not unreasonable for Wolf's situation IMO

Levi is 8 months younger and got 7 games last season for the Sabres with a .905 Sv%. I want that for Wolf this season, but if he gets 7 games with over .915%, then I think he deserves another 7 game. Then repeat.

OT: I kinda miss the Hartley 7 game way of tracking performance.

I don’t mind a slow development path with most players. For most players I think it’s good. Poirier could use a few more seasons getting stronger and learning the pro game. Zary needs another season playing big minutes as the 1C. Solovyov is probably better suited to playing big minutes in the AHL although I think he could certainly be a 6/7 D.

But not Wolf. He makes us a better team right now. If they send him down and he plays 20 games in the AHL and they bring him up in December and he gets significant NHL time the rest of the year, then sure I’m willing to concede I am overreacting to this. But the guy is ready to be an NHL starter IMO. He needs to play against NHL competition day in and day out.

 

[Fig]

I don’t mind a slow development path with most players. For most players I think it’s good. Poirier could use a few more seasons getting stronger and learning the pro game. Zary needs another season playing big minutes as the 1C. Solovyov is probably better suited to playing big minutes in the AHL although I think he could certainly be a 6/7 D.

But not Wolf. He makes us a better team right now. If they send him down and he plays 20 games in the AHL and they bring him up in December and he gets significant NHL time the rest of the year, then sure I’m willing to concede I am overreacting to this. But the guy is ready to be an NHL starter IMO. He needs to play against NHL competition day in and day out.

From a prospect POV, graduating kids early and a lot, that's awesome. But don't forget we're a vet laden team. Blowing Vladar off to make room for Wolf could work and prospects might be excited for our teams for opportunities, but then we might hurt ourselves more than we benefit from veteran disproval, UFA, trade blocking etc.

I'd be happy with this type of spread this season:

NHL:
- Markstrom 50
- Vladar 20
- Wofl 10
(Yes, I know it doesn't add to 82 games)

NHL pine riding or pressbox:
- Markstrom 20-30
- Vladar 40-60 (if not traded to give him more opportunity)
- Wolf <10

Wolf doesn't prove anything on the bench. Yes, he can't prove more in the AHL, but I'd want his development path in such a way where he's put into a position with the starter position is within reach for him at all times. He's not at that point yet because his development was slowed vs Saros/Rinne scenario due to the pandemic. Vladar is the stopgap to bridge that bump in the road that slowed Wolf's path.

I think I might agree we've seen enough 20 games in this season to completely agree with your opinion. But as of right now, I think we're about 40-50 games out from me in total agreement with your opinion.

Behind the scenes, I don't think it's unreasonable to say, "That back up role, that's yours because you earned it. Just sit patiently in the AHL getting regular play time and maintaining that performance to give us a chance to sort this out properly and do right by V."

Seriously dude, you've been half a year to 18 months ahead in accurately proclaiming prospects before. I think this is par for the course. Give us a chance to catch up. Seriously, if you can, put money down on Wolf succeeding earlier than expected and you'll probably laugh at us saying "Atodaso" with a wad of cash in hand.

Also, quite a few of us might actually want to agree with you right now, but superstitiously believe we must be cautiously optimistic. I wouldn't say I'm totally superstitious, but I'm not as comfortable taking that leap of faith right now as you are.

 

[deleted user]

That's a damn good post.

 

[Body Checker]

Man chill people; alot of this is a waivers game. You don’t just give up some depth because of a few periods of preseason games. This is common across the NHL at the start of the season.

 

[TheHudlinator]

Why are people still pretending that Wolf being sent down means he won't be getting his NHL shot this year?

The difference isn't between NHL or no NHL. It's between NHL games only (worse) or AHL and NHL games (better).

Based on off-season comments, almost a slam dunk that he sees NHL game action in October, probably more than once.

Personally because I've seen this play out a million times with the Flames and it's at best a cup of coffee and is a joke of a way to develop prospects and to reward the better player

 

[Anglesmith]

Personally because I've seen this play out a million times with the Flames and it's at best a cup of coffee and is a joke of a way to develop prospects and to reward the better player

The better player because of his AHL numbers? Markstrom posted a .934 in the AHL back in the day, and a .922 in the NHL just two seasons ago when the Flames were defending the high-danger areas effectively (and while the stats say that they didn't allow high quantity of chances from those areas, the Markstrom goal reel shows that they did not effectively contest the chances the way most teams do when they did happen).

Wolf had one NHL game and let in a goal that he'd like to have back. Two years ago, Markstrom would have had one of his 9 shutouts in a game like that. Now, I'm not saying these things to say that Markstrom is definitely better than Wolf at this moment, I'm just saying that the body of evidence is incredibly biased towards recent results at different levels in different situations, and it is disingenuous to pretend that we know that for sure. I have never seen a team allow as many clear-cut chances and defend them as poorly as last year's Flames, and yet without really allowing that many bad goals Markstrom came in for a massive heap of criticism that the skaters largely side-stepped.

Even with the sending down today, by no means have the Flames closed the door on Wolf taking the starter's role at some point this season, but there simply is not enough evidence at this point to know that he is the best NHL goalie in the organization. Certainly he's #2 or #1, but if you don't know that he is better than Markstrom yet it is hard to justify the decision to let Vladar go for free.

As I have said before, there is virtually zero downside to the way the Flames are playing this. Your argument is entirely based on the Flames handling him differently than they have said they are going to.

 

[DFF]

Let’s not talk about Markstrom of two yrs ago. There is no sign that he is the same goalie. Even then he choked badly against the team that we need to beat.
But the Flames is stuck with him. The competition is between Wolf and Vladar . Wolf lost because Conroy can’t move Vladar.

This will play out in the next couple years. My bet is Vladar will go to the AHL eventually with the Flames eating up the remaining of his salary

 

[DFF]

I still don't even feel like the team gave him a chance to put up numbers last year with their break but don't bend defensive system. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how little our fanbase seemed to notice the gigantic uptick in uncontested odd-man rush opportunities and undefended slot chances last year amid the stellar possession stats.

Lol it was a given that he gave up a 1st goal or bad timing goal. He was bad regardless. He even admitted to it

 

[TheHudlinator]

The better player because of his AHL numbers? Markstrom posted a .934 in the AHL back in the day, and a .922 in the NHL just two seasons ago when the Flames were defending the high-danger areas effectively (and while the stats say that they didn't allow high quantity of chances from those areas, the Markstrom goal reel shows that they did not effectively contest the chances the way most teams do when they did happen).

Wolf had one NHL game and let in a goal that he'd like to have back. Two years ago, Markstrom would have had one of his 9 shutouts in a game like that. Now, I'm not saying these things to say that Markstrom is definitely better than Wolf at this moment, I'm just saying that the body of evidence is incredibly biased towards recent results at different levels in different situations, and it is disingenuous to pretend that we know that for sure. I have never seen a team allow as many clear-cut chances and defend them as poorly as last year's Flames, and yet without really allowing that many bad goals Markstrom came in for a massive heap of criticism that the skaters largely side-stepped.

Even with the sending down today, by no means have the Flames closed the door on Wolf taking the starter's role at some point this season, but there simply is not enough evidence at this point to know that he is the best NHL goalie in the organization. Certainly he's #2 or #1, but if you don't know that he is better than Markstrom yet it is hard to justify the decision to let Vladar go for free.

As I have said before, there is virtually zero downside to the way the Flames are playing this. Your argument is entirely based on the Flames handling him differently than they have said they are going to.

No the better player based on watching the two play. Throw in the fact Vlad was not only bad last year but goaltending in general was brutal for us. The only two reasons to keep Vlad up is 1 we are going to ride Markstrom again for every game burning him out 2 we hope we get a pick for Vlad. Both reasons are stupid to keep the best goalie prospect out of the nhl.

I've heard the Flames and Conroy say a lot and not back it up. Wolf has earned his chance in the nhl and more importantly has more to learn being a every day nhler then being called up for spot duty.

For a team that struggles to keep its talent we do a great job of giving future talents a reason to want to leave.

 

[Anglesmith]

No the better player based on watching the two play. Throw in the fact Vlad was not only bad last year but goaltending in general was brutal for us. The only two reasons to keep Vlad up is 1 we are going to ride Markstrom again for every game burning him out 2 we hope we get a pick for Vlad. Both reasons are stupid to keep the best goalie prospect out of the nhl.

I've heard the Flames and Conroy say a lot and not back it up. Wolf has earned his chance in the nhl and more importantly has more to learn being a every day nhler then being called up for spot duty.

For a team that struggles to keep its talent we do a great job of giving future talents a reason to want to leave.

The fact that both of our NHL goalies were good two years ago and both had shutouts and then suddenly both were absolutely terrible seems like quite a mighty coincidence, doesn't it?

Anyway, the thing I've seen countless times is prospect goalies playing at a lower level looking like a sure thing to be the next starting goalie. Irving, Gillies, Parsons, etc. That's why I'm saying that until what you're watching is the two guys playing in the same situation, you really can't make a fair comparison.

 

[TheHudlinator]

The fact that both of our NHL goalies were good two years ago and both had shutouts and then suddenly both were absolutely terrible seems like quite a mighty coincidence, doesn't it?

Anyway, the thing I've seen countless times is prospect goalies playing at a lower level looking like a sure thing to be the next starting goalie. Irving, Gillies, Parsons, etc. That's why I'm saying that until what you're watching is the two guys playing in the same situation, you really can't make a fair comparison.

Ok fair enough then let's let Wolf play in the same league, get the same practice, get the same routine and find out?

Also none of those guys looked this good

 

[Mobiandi]

I think the Flames’ amazing track record of developing goalies really speaks for itself here. The org has a plan.

Anyway… the time to make a goalie trade was in the summer. It certainly won’t happen mid-season if we’re in the playoff hunt. Wolf might get some NHL action in April but that’s about it

 

[Fig]

Personally because I've seen this play out a million times with the Flames and it's at best a cup of coffee and is a joke of a way to develop prospects and to reward the better player

Do you like how Buffalo has been handling Levi. IMO that’s possible a realistic scenario if we imitate it. I think they're trying to follow Saro's path, but forgot there's a Covid related slow down in their development. It's not bad, but if Wolf had a .905 after <9 games, I'd want him to get more regular games. If that's not as a back up to improve from .905, then it's as the starter in the AHL and being brought up to play more games when the starter needs a day off. He prove nothing and improves nothing sitting on the bench, esp if the coach doesn't believe in pulling goalies.

We can’t fully emulate Saros because of certain slow downs to Wolf's development path due to the pandemic. I don't know what that slow down is, but an estimated 12-18 month loss or slowed development solely due to that.

No the better player based on watching the two play. Throw in the fact Vlad was not only bad last year but goaltending in general was brutal for us. The only two reasons to keep Vlad up is 1 we are going to ride Markstrom again for every game burning him out 2 we hope we get a pick for Vlad. Both reasons are stupid to keep the best goalie prospect out of the nhl.

I've heard the Flames and Conroy say a lot and not back it up. Wolf has earned his chance in the nhl and more importantly has more to learn being a every day nhler then being called up for spot duty.

For a team that struggles to keep its talent we do a great job of giving future talents a reason to want to leave.

No. There's a 3rd reason and it's been a reason since Treliving. It's doing right by one of the goalies. In the long run, we want to do right by our former players. Being ruthless like VGK might work if there's a lineup down the block for high end talent wanting to rush to your team. Unfortunately we're a Canadian team and this is not the case. We don't want to rush out Vladar only for Wolf to have it in the back of his mind that if he struggles, we'd do the same to him. Knowing that we stood by V and then did right by him to give him a new place for him to hopefully succeed there, that can help keep Wolf at ease and just focus on being awesome.

I think some goalies play better in a contract year or if they're worried someone might steal their job. But I honestly think more goalies break when that happens than succeed. I don't have anything to back it up, but TBH, I honestly think most of them break in the AHL before they reach the NHL, but still in the NHL, more break than succeed with that pressure. Prospects, established AND veteran goalies.

Doing right by the player is important IMO. We don't like it if a player doesn't do right by us (ie: Gaudreau albeit we sorta get it) and are very happy if the player does (ie: Tkachuk). Players like Hathaway, Lomberg, Phillips, Valimaki, Macket etc. I would hope if someone asked them if they'd have a chance in the Flames org, they'd be an ambassador for us. Something along the lines of "Good place to develop. Even if they don't have a spot for you, they'll do their best to do right by you. Would have been nice to have a longer role there, but I enjoyed every minute of it."

Like I posted earlier. I'm of the opinion that yours and @Tkachuk Norris 's opinion isn't incorrect. The rest of us just need the opportunity to catch up. Metaphorically speaking, we're still reading the synopsis on the back cover and the two of you have read to chapter 2. Let us read the story and catch up in a way that's enjoyable to us, lol.

 

[Body Checker]

Wonder if Flames are lying in the weeds for the last run of waivers to grab a 4C or 6D?

 

[Stephen Gionta]

What's the statline prediction for Coronato this year??

 

[Lunatik]

Wonder if Flames are lying in the weeds for the last run of waivers to grab a 4C or 6D?

I think it is very likely for a forward. I am fine with Oesterle, Gilbert and Solovyov as our 8D to start the season (I'd go to 7D after the long road trip), but I'm not sure either Klapka or Schwindt should be on the team.

What's the statline prediction for Coronato this year??

300 goals, 900 points

 

[Flames Fanatic]

What's the statline prediction for Coronato this year??

Hoping for at least 15-20 goals, 15-20 assists as a reasonably conservative guess. Could be higher or lower, but I think that's probably a safer bet. Depends if he gets time on the top PP unit or not.

 

[super6646]

What's the statline prediction for Coronato this year??

40g30a 70 pts

'

 

[Rubi]