Trades for Hagg or Morin?

[Striiker]

What, misremembering that he had a bad season in the AHL? Sure. I was deep off in the world of Phantoms analysis in the lone year I lived in Nashville . That **** was my top priority.

And yet you argued about that, same as you're arguing about Braun... a random player you probably saw a similar amount of as Hagg and not even one who you had a reason to keep an eye on.

If in your mind the Hagg we've watched is a serviceable #6, then I see that as you overrating a truly horrific player, which means your praise of Braun could be similarly tainted for similar reasons.

 

[deadhead]

Sanheim was putrid in the 2017-18 playoffs, along with Manning. Hagg turned out to be a legitimate alternative (trash v trash).
MacDonald was our 4th best D-man in those playoffs.

 

[Rich Nixon]

And yet you argued about that, same as you're arguing about Braun... a random player you probably saw a similar amount of as Hagg and not even one who you had a reason to keep an eye on.

If in your mind the Hagg we've watched is a serviceable #6, then I see that as you overrating a truly horrific player, which means your praise of Braun could be similarly tainted for similar reasons.

More surprised than anything that you it took you 48 hours or whatever it was to get around to that, was interested to see what angle you'd take. It was like your ultimate "gotcha" there.

I acknowledged a mistake. I saw plenty Hagg as an AHL rookie and a third-year AHL man, given that my family is in LV and had them sweet Phantoms seats. Got countless cheap Service Electric velcro-back giveaway caps. My assessment (in his initial and "bounce-back" season) still stands. Hagg was good at what he did down there when he wasn't, apparently, having an absolutely terrible season.

My assessments were "a better AHL defenseman than Friedman currently is" and "a very good AHL shutdown man," which aren't even particularly hyperbolic, or invalidated. Those are both perfectly reasonable assessments of 2016-17 AHL Robert Hagg (that I think is the stupidest highly-specific sentence I think I’ve ever written).

Sorry I'm so tainted to you, baby.

 

[Striiker]

More surprised than anything that you it took you 48 hours or whatever it was to get around to that, was interested to see what angle you'd take. It was like your ultimate "gotcha" there.

I acknowledged a mistake. I saw plenty Hagg as an AHL rookie and a third-year AHL man, given that my family is in LV and had them sweet Phantoms seats. Got countless cheap Service Electric velcro-back giveaway caps to prove it. My assessment (in his initial and "bounce-back" season) still stands. Hagg was good at what he did down there when he wasn't, apparently, having an absolutely terrible season.

My assessments were "a better AHL defenseman than Friedman currently is" and "a very good AHL shutdown man," which aren't even particularly hyperbolic, or invalidated. Those are both perfectly reasonable assessments of 2016-17 AHL Robert Hagg. That I think is the stupidest highly-specific sentence I think I’ve ever written.

Sorry I'm so tainted to you, baby.

I don't really understand your first sentence there... 48 hours? Angle? Gotcha?

It was simply something that popped in my head when I read your comment I replied to, not a "gotcha" or a premeditated attack.

When we had previously argued about Braun, I just figured it was either an instance where we disagreed about a specific player or that you were just being overly optimistic about him. But now after seeing your comment about Hagg, it seems more like there's something about that type of player (*I'm not comparing their quality*) that you value more than most people.

That's all. It just explains why we're clearly not going to agree on evaluating these types of players.

 

[deadhead]

Can you name a few “league average” 6th defensemen? Not the above average ones, but middle of the pack around the league, so we can get an idea of your benchmark?

132 D-men played 1000+ ES minutes
166 D-men played 800+ ES minutes
So durability matters, b/c when you're down to #7-#8 or worse, you're talking some pretty bad players

Of the 166 D-men:
Hagg was 146 in xGF%, 160 in CF, 80th in xGF/60, 162 in xGA/60, 151 in EV GAR,

2017-18:
165 D-men who played 800+ minutes
Hagg was 122 in xGF%, 158 in CF, 141 in xGF/60, 99 in xGA/60, 97 in EV GAR

His partners in 2018-19 (along with Gordon as HC) explains some of his falloff last season.

There were worse D-men playing 800+ minutes the last two seasons.

 

[Rich Nixon]

I don't really understand your first sentence there... 48 hours? Angle? Gotcha?

It was simply something that popped in my head when I read your comment I replied to, not a "gotcha" or a premeditated attack.

When we had previously argued about Braun, I just figured it was either an instance where we disagreed about a specific player or that you were just being overly optimistic about him. But now after seeing your comment about Hagg, it seems more like there's something about that type of player (*I'm not comparing their quality*) that you value more than most people.

That's all. It just explains why we're clearly not going to agree on evaluating these types of players.

no, it was because I completely expected a line like that to pop up in this or another thread after I missed that whole era of Haggdom. I was totally expecting that to come bite me and you to be the one holding that snake, so I was saying I was amazed it took 48 hours from when I posted originally for that to happen.

I'm not even kidding when I say I was legit surprised about Hagg's whole healthy-scratch-this-guy-sucks sophomore Phantoms season, because I keep decently close tabs and that was just never on my radar at all, took me a second to realize why.

We certainly value players differently. I don't think I value the traditional shutdown defenseman too, too highly, or even more highly than "most people." There's definitely folks out there (and on this board cough) who are convinced you need a Therien or two even still. I'd rather not. I just think I don't see their value as being as low as some others do, know what I mean?

Like, great in-zone play I think is undervalued by people who haven't played or who are too invested in the HF-youthwave-offense-over-everything mindsets. But it's also overvalued and oversimplified by old fogies and casual fans. Things like positioning and aren't really represented by "shot blocks": Hagg is not a very good positional defenseman despite getting hit with lots of pucks. Braun is a very good positional defenseman who never really loses anyone in the zone. That's a very good thing and a big upgrade for a defense that gets lost all the time.

As with everything, there's a lot of grey area and interpretation and room for different opinions.

 

[Rebels57]

In my mind he is like one injury away from every day role and most likely blocking Myers because that would be peak flyera.

AV has already stated that Myers will be "starting his career as the 3rd pairing RHD." AV and Fletch also are placing a lot of value in defensemen playing their strong side. Myers was just also selected to play for AV, over many more established Canadian defensemen, in the World Championships. There is no chance Hagg plays over Myers.

 

[Striiker]

no, it was because I completely expected a line like that to pop up in this or another thread after I missed that whole era of Haggdom. I was totally expecting that to come bite me and you to be the one holding that snake, so I was saying I was amazed it took 48 hours from when I posted originally for that to happen.

I'm not even kidding when I say I was legit surprised about Hagg's whole healthy-scratch-this-guy-sucks sophomore Phantoms season, because I keep decently close tabs and that was just never on my radar at all, took me a second to realize why.

We certainly value players differently. I don't think I value the traditional shutdown defenseman too, too highly, or even more highly than "most people." There's definitely folks out there (and on this board cough) who are convinced you need a Therien or two even still. I'd rather not. I just think I don't see their value as being as low as some others do, know what I mean?

Like, great in-zone play I think is undervalued by people who haven't played or who are too invested in the HF-youthwave-offense-over-everything mindsets. But it's also overvalued and oversimplified by old fogies and casual fans. Things like positioning and aren't really represented by "shot blocks": Hagg is not a very good positional defenseman despite getting hit with lots of pucks. Braun is a very good positional defenseman who never really loses anyone in the zone. That's a very good thing and a big upgrade for a defense that gets lost all the time.

As with everything, there's a lot of grey area and interpretation and room for different opinions.

Right, that's basically what I'm saying. There's certainly people on this board who value them far more than you do (a few dinos think Hagg is a legit top 4, or even top 2, defensemen), but you certainly value them far more than I do, so that's where we're too far apart to agree on this topic.

Despite lies by certain sources (not talking about you), I do value defensive ability. It's just that I define actual effective "defensive ability" differently than they do. Like how I value puck retrieval and puck moving as defensive ability, while some think it's all about physicality... grinding, hitting, and getting hit by pucks, like the fogies/casuals you mentioned.

 

[deadhead]

Despite lies by certain sources (not talking about you), I do value defensive ability. It's just that I define actual effective "defensive ability" differently than they do. Like how I value puck retrieval and puck moving as defensive ability, while some think it's all about physicality... grinding, hitting, and getting hit by pucks, like the fogies/casuals you mentioned.

Puck retrieval is all about grinding and hitting, since the way you get the puck back in the D-zone is to take it away from the offense, not wait for them to cough it up. Play along the boards and back of the net is about being physical, not so much hitting people, more being willing to get hit to protect the puck, going into scrums and fighting for the puck, etc. If you don't do those thing, the other team will cycle the puck and you'll get to touch it after the red light goes on.

Puck moving in the D-zone, and passing out of the D-zone is part of defense, and many players who are good at this aren't necessarily good offensive players who'll post high Corsi, rather, they're smart, disciplined, make good first passes and get the puck out to the neutral zone without turning it over. This is separate from being able to enter the O-zone or set up scorers.

Blocking shots are part of defense, because one of the ways of scoring is get a big body on net and throw pucks at the goaltender hoping for rebounds or a screened shot. Block shots are often turned into 2 on 1s the other way as the puck is stopped at the top of the D-zone and if the offensive team is too aggressive, off to the races. If you don't block shots, you'd better clear out players in front of the net and give your goalie clean looks.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

AV has already stated that Myers will be "starting his career as the 3rd pairing RHD." AV and Fletch also are placing a lot of value in defensemen playing their strong side. Myers was just also selected to play for AV, over many more established Canadian defensemen, in the World Championships. There is no chance Hagg plays over Myers.

I'm sure that isn't the plan, but I'm fairly certain no one in flyers organization planned to go through 8 goalies either. We can't act as if injuries don't exist in sport or healthy scratches as we've seen more talented guys getting nachos treatment.

 

[deadhead]

We really won't know anything until the exhibition games start, I'm sure AV wants to keep an open mind about players he's never coached and has only watched on film with partners he wouldn't choose, coached by coaches he wouldn't hire.

That is to say, AV will probably try defensemen in different pairs, and coach them to do things in different ways.

For all we know, teach Hagg not to chase hits, how to use leverage in the crease, to recognize his best outlet target (and coach forwards to get back and provide outlet targets) and give him a puck moving partner and he becomes a solid 3rd pair defenseman. Or not.

Unless Fletcher gets a good trade offer, there is no reason to make hasty decisions (other than to placate Striiker, and really, who cares?).
Give everyone a clean slate, let them compete for jobs.

There's a reason they have training camp, and it's not so veterans can skate their way into game shape, that's ancient history.

 

[dragonoffrost]

We really won't know anything until the exhibition games start, I'm sure AV wants to keep an open mind about players he's never coached and has only watched on film with partners he wouldn't choose, coached by coaches he wouldn't hire.

That is to say, AV will probably try defensemen in different pairs, and coach them to do things in different ways.

For all we know, teach Hagg not to chase hits, how to use leverage in the crease, to recognize his best outlet target (and coach forwards to get back and provide outlet targets) and give him a puck moving partner and he becomes a solid 3rd pair defenseman. Or not.

Unless Fletcher gets a good trade offer, there is no reason to make hasty decisions (other than to placate Striiker, and really, who cares?).
Give everyone a clean slate, let them compete for jobs.

There's a reason they have training camp, and it's not so veterans can skate their way into game shape, that's ancient history.

You might want to tell the Flyers that last statement. Cause they sure haven't played like they were ready when game 1 hit most of the past few seasons and coaches.

 

[PHILOUDELPHIA]

Can we trade Hagg to the Mets.

Happy Brodie Van Waggonen Day