Trades and Proposals 2016 TDD Kick-off V2

[cookie]

If one of those so called 4th liners are out producing him.. What does that mean ?

It could mean anything:
hot streak for Komarov,
Komarov being undervalued (I was talking about 4th liners re right now with Koma and JVR gone)
cold streak for Kadri

Kadri's not a first line center--that's a given. But that doesn't mean you trade him when his value is low. For instance, both Tatar and Nyquist have 12 points in their last 30 games, is this the right time to trade them, assuming Detroit doesn't think of them as core pieces? I think there's enough historical data, as well as real-time data, to suggest that their paces aren't adhering to the norm. Their situations suggest room for improvement, or at least returning back to norm. And, most importantly, neither we nor the Wings are in a rush to trade young players, unless it's for long-term benefit. The Leafs team has taken the development route, for better or worse. I think it's best to see where it leads the team instead of making those gut decisions.

I think another way to approach this situation is by looking at Kessel. He was ~ppg, then he had a 60~ point season and was traded and continued at this 60~ point rate. If he were traded at the ppg pace, he would have gotten much more, but then again, if we had gotten a center that gelled with him and not been utter trash, he'd still put up those near ppg numbers and maintain that trade value. We have a situation like that coming up with Naz, what with the influx of Marlies talent. Dress him up before trading him.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

I dont think either Kadri or JVR are considered leaders.
JVR has since he been drafted seem to struggle to motivate him self even, cant ask him to lead a group of youngsters. Kadri, well he is Kadri.

 

[OvenMittz*]

It could mean anything:
hot streak for Komarov,
Komarov being undervalued (I was talking about 4th liners re right now with Koma and JVR gone)
cold streak for Kadri

Kadri's not a first line center--that's a given. But that doesn't mean you trade him when his value is low. For instance, both Tatar and Nyquist have 12 points in their last 30 games, is this the right time to trade them, assuming Detroit doesn't think of them as core pieces? I think there's enough historical data, as well as real-time data, to suggest that their paces aren't adhering to the norm. Their situations suggest room for improvement, or at least returning back to norm. And, most importantly, neither we nor the Wings are in a rush to trade young players, unless it's for long-term benefit. The Leafs team has taken the development route, for better or worse. I think it's best to see where it leads the team instead of making those gut decisions.

I think another way to approach this situation is by looking at Kessel. He was ~ppg, then he had a 60~ point season and was traded and continued at this 60~ point rate. If he were traded at the ppg pace, he would have gotten much more, but then again, if we had gotten a center that gelled with him and not been utter trash, he'd still put up those near ppg numbers and maintain that trade value. We have a situation like that coming up with Naz, what with the influx of Marlies talent. Dress him up before trading him.

Didn't need to read the rest.

Without Komarov and JVR I can agree with you.

Grabner and Holland are more 3rd liners than they are 4th..

 

[thewave]

Think we need another deal tonight.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

I dont think either Kadri or JVR are considered leaders.
JVR has since he been drafted seem to struggle to motivate him self even, cant ask him to lead a group of youngsters. Kadri, well he is Kadri.

I'm not talking about guys who wear letters. Just guys who have been in this league, at this level. We really have very few of those players left. We need to keep them if we can. What happens when young kids play with no guidance or experience of any kind around them?

Do you people want to be Edmonton? Give your collective heads a shake.

 

[cookie]

Didn't need to read the rest.

Without Komarov and JVR I can agree with you.

Grabner and Holland are more 3rd liners than they are 4th..

doing yourself a disservice. especially since it's the points you bring up basically every thread.

 

[thewave]

I'm not talking about guys who wear letters. Just guys who have been in this league, at this level. We really have very few of those players left. We need to keep them if we can. What happens when young kids play with no guidance or experience of any kind around them?

Do you people want to be Edmonton? Give your collective heads a shake.

Don't worry about that. The picks and letting prospects show their stuff will lead to packages for some vets come crunch time July. Not even a concern at all, Lou and company know the deal.

 

[Kurisu]

I know right?! Love the high horses some people are on, EH?!?

Rather be on the high horse than be the guy who gets his ideas from Steve Simmons.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Don't worry about that. The picks and letting prospects show their stuff will lead to packages for some vets come crunch time July. Not even a concern at all, Lou and company know the deal.

I worry because we should worry. We have seen what happens when kids are left to figure it out themselves. We need guys like Kadri and JVR. They're good top 6 players. Something we have exactly 1 of on the team at this moment.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

I'm not talking about guys who wear letters. Just guys who have been in this league, at this level. We really have very few of those players left. We need to keep them if we can. What happens when young kids play with no guidance or experience of any kind around them?

Do you people want to be Edmonton? Give your collective heads a shake.

Ok, I get what you mean and I agree. I dont want to insulate our young guys as well. And perhaps JVR and Kadri can do that or perhaps we can find better players in trades or as free agents to do that.

 

[dubplatepressure]

Rather be on the high horse than be the guy who gets his ideas from Steve Simmons.

I'm sorry Steve and I can't hear you from down here.

 

[Kurisu]

I'm sorry Steve and I can't hear you from down here.

That's okay. I didn't want to listen anyway.

 

[OvenMittz*]

doing yourself a disservice. especially since it's the points you bring up basically every thread.

I don't disagree with you.

I've always said to sell Kadri for great return.. And if not keep him to insulate (depending on his contract).

But I feel he is getting more and more attention the more Babs praises his 2way to take attention away from his low production numbers (at least low compared to expectations).

Kadri is excelling in a lot of areas people thought he would never grow in.. The more GMs see/hear this the better it will be to his value.

I'd trade Kadri for a good young RH Dman.. In a heart beat though.. If its for a high 1st and some mid tier prospect I think I'd pass and keep him instead.

 

[thewave]

I worry because we should worry. We have seen what happens when kids are left to figure it out themselves. We need guys like Kadri and JVR. They're good top 6 players. Something we have exactly 1 of on the team at this moment.

I don't want to trade Kadri or JVR. I imagine Greening and Michalek will be around as well. I would like them to attempt a top 4D acquisition ASAP though. Bozak perhaps could be a part of a deal for a 3-4D if packaged correctly with picks (big maybe). Lupul will also be around and Winnik and Komarov so it's not like Vets won't be present.

The D NEEDS a Vet.

 

[OvenMittz*]

Considering the fact we heard Toronto might be a destination Harmonic would be okay with (something with shorter flights).

Would NYI do a deal involving

Kadri + Percy for Harmonic + cap dump?

Or

Kadri + Percy + 1 of our 2nds next year

For

Harmonic


Don't know if it will get it done or if its an over payment.. Just throwing it out there..

 

[BertCorbeau]

I gotta say something around Kadri and Shattenkirk really has my attention .. Depending on what else is involved.

I know it goes against the idea of building through the draft but at the same time the defensive core could use a stabilizing presence with Rielly and Gardiner, and Shattenkirk would be a great fit. Edmonton has suffered with a poor defensive core, and the Leafs don't have a blue chip defending waiting in the wings. Sure there are intriguing prospects but defenseman are fickle and tough to predict - plus they can take awhile to develop.

A Kadri-Shattenkirk swap would still leave Bozak as an insulator in the top 9 centre group for next year too. Plus if the Leafs do a trade around Bernier and Backlund, that gives the Leafs more insulation in the centre group.

Interesting things to consider.

 

[Ovate]

I don't disagree with you.

I've always said to sell Kadri for great return.. And if not keep him to insulate (depending on his contract).

But I feel he is getting more and more attention the more Babs praises his 2way to take attention away from his low production numbers (at least low compared to expectations).

Kadri is excelling in a lot of areas people thought he would never grow in.. The more GMs see/hear this the better it will be to his value.

I'd trade Kadri for a good young RH Dman.. In a heart beat though.. If its for a high 1st and some mid tier prospect I think I'd pass and keep him instead.

He's on pace for 45 points now, but if he was shooting at 8% he'd be on pace for 52 points (which is really all that should be expected of him). Babcock isn't trying to take attention away from low production numbers so much as understanding that low production numbers are often a very incomplete story.

 

[TMLegend]

I gotta say something around Kadri and Shattenkirk really has my attention .. Depending on what else is involved.

I know it goes against the idea of building through the draft but at the same time the defensive core could use a stabilizing presence with Rielly and Gardiner, and Shattenkirk would be a great fit. Edmonton has suffered with a poor defensive core, and the Leafs don't have a blue chip defending waiting in the wings. Sure there are intriguing prospects but defenseman are fickle and tough to predict - plus they can take awhile to develop.

A Kadri-Shattenkirk swap would still leave Bozak as an insulator in the top 9 centre group for next year too. Plus if the Leafs do a trade around Bernier and Backlund, that gives the Leafs more insulation in the centre group.

Interesting things to consider.

The problem with Shattenkirk is that he's a UFA after next season. Selling him on a rebuild in Toronto could be tough. He's also not the "type" of defensemen we need being paired with Rielly/Gardiner, as he's an offense first guy himself.

I'm a big fan though, and his underlying numbers are quite good as well.

 

[OvenMittz*]

He's on pace for 45 points now, but if he was shooting at 8% he'd be on pace for 52 points (which is really all that should be expected of him). Babcock isn't trying to take attention away from low production numbers so much as understanding that low production numbers are often a very incomplete story.

The way I see it.. The final numbers at the end of the season is all that matters..

S% might show if a player will heat up eventual in hopes it will average out but once the season ends it will show a players s% in 82 games... No short sample size or bad luck should be brought up.. The number at the end of the season is what matters to me.

So if he gets back to his average s% before then.. Great. If not well.. The seasons over and that should tell a different story.

 

[cookie]

I don't disagree with you.

I've always said to sell Kadri for great return.. And if not keep him to insulate (depending on his contract).

But I feel he is getting more and more attention the more Babs praises his 2way to take attention away from his low production numbers (at least low compared to expectations).

Kadri is excelling in a lot of areas people thought he would never grow in.. The more GMs see/hear this the better it will be to his value.

I'd trade Kadri for a good young RH Dman.. In a heart beat though.. If its for a high 1st and some mid tier prospect I think I'd pass and keep him instead.

I'd actually bite for both offers. Knowing Lou and our revamped scouting staff, I think we're gonna be in for a pleasant surprise if a trade does go through.
I think it will most likely be a player-player trade with minor picks and cap dumps as add-ons.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

I'm not talking about guys who wear letters. Just guys who have been in this league, at this level. We really have very few of those players left. We need to keep them if we can. What happens when young kids play with no guidance or experience of any kind around them?

Do you people want to be Edmonton? Give your collective heads a shake.

Edmonton is the extreme example and they did so many things wrong.

First off we aren't rushing every youngster into the NHL like the Oilers did. Witness Nylander + Marner as a prime example.

 

[as Pure as Evil]

Wouldn't surprise me if Lou Lam has lines in the water for both Kadri and Bozak, get some nibbles and see what he could reel in.

I for one am imagining that English/story exercise where you have a bunch of oval circles with words in them, but in this example it will be tradeable players, everytime someone takes a look it highlights the team. a true war room lol with the whole bombing alarm and all

sorry trying to have my coffee

 

[OvenMittz*]

I'd actually bite for both offers. Knowing Lou and our revamped scouting staff, I think we're gonna be in for a pleasant surprise if a trade does go through.
I think it will most likely be a player-player trade with minor picks and cap dumps as add-ons.

If we trade Kadri and get a cap dump in return... That return is going to be good.

Kadri should get us a pretty good Dman who is around the same age.. A cap dump to go along with it should garner more or a better price.

We have the cap space to make a lot of deals better for us (as long as there is only 2 years or less left on the capdump)

 

[The Examiner]

I'm not talking about guys who wear letters. Just guys who have been in this league, at this level. We really have very few of those players left. We need to keep them if we can. What happens when young kids play with no guidance or experience of any kind around them?

Do you people want to be Edmonton? Give your collective heads a shake.

The Leafs definitely don't want to be Edmonton but Tampa seems to have done OK and they have less players over the age of 24 than Edmonton, yet still made it to the finals. You see it's not so black and white.

Every team is different and I trust this management team knows what they are doing. Perhaps you should give them a call and tell them your great ideas. It's quite possible that after they give their head a shake, they'll hand you the reins.

 

[BertCorbeau]

The problem with Shattenkirk is that he's a UFA after next season. Selling him on a rebuild in Toronto could be tough. He's also not the "type" of defensemen we need being paired with Rielly/Gardiner, as he's an offense first guy himself.

I'm a big fan though, and his underlying numbers are quite good as well.

Yeah the pending UFA thing is concerning. Perhaps a conditional draft pick could be added on St Louis' end for not being able to re-sign him (other things would have to come from Toronto)?

If I'm trading for Shattenkirk, I would be looking at re-signing him as part of the defensive core personally. I think the Leafs can do this without this contract being a total anchor on their cap.