Proposal: Trade Proposal Thread: Part 67

[covfefe]

It might be a way to turn the team around quickly, but is it a way to build long-term success? You need everything to go right for that to happen.

1) Agreed, valid question.

2) Disagreed. NY is now one of the better teams in the league after bottoming out just 2 years prior to this. But all 3 of their top 10 picks over that timeframe have backfired and/or done little. I wouldn't call that everything going right.

 

[Runner77]

Look a what Gorton did with the Rangers for the answer to that question.

From 2018-2020, they finished last or second last in the Metro while simultaneously making aggressive moves in the trade and FA markets. They traded for Trouba, Strome, and Fox, they signed Panarin and Shesterkin, and they doubled their quantity of 1st round picks. In hindsight, all very good moves - although the picks have yet to deliver returns.

To me this is the most obvious way to turn this team around. Let the young guys come out of their shells, beef up the pro scouting dept, and make the most of what will be a bunch of high picks over the next 2 years.

Rangers are a destination team. Panarin, Fox and Trouba all wanted to sign in NY. Gorton didn’t have to do anything to get them signed (in Trouba’s case, he wanted to be traded to NY and then proceeded to sign a long term deal).

Gorton was working with a whole other set of advantages that he won’t have in Montreal. Hughes/ Gorton will have to rebuild a scouting contingent, name an AGM to oversee scouting, build an analytics department, bolster the development dept., add skills coaches, etc. Some of these will take time.

Hence, I buy into the building strategy contained in your last paragraph.

 

[WeThreeKings]

I think Hughes/Gorton will try to go after star players in free agency and they might not be successful but the attempt itself might give them more information as to why they aren't able to and see if they can shift that mindset.

Getting one star off FA can change how it's viewed by other players. I know they want to make the Canadiens a destination for the elite again and this is part of that.

I don't have concern about their vision since Hughes has been adamant multiple times that they won't make short term moves, everything will be to have sustained success for long term.

 

[Runner77]

This guy clearly didn't watch a Habs game in the past 2 years.

He’s clearly writing from an advanced stats perspective. He did bring in the perception that some may have of Chiarot but argued how it may not hold up for some GMs.

Also, a hockey writer for a national service can’t be expected to watch every game available. He doesn’t need to act like a fan on fan forums.

The takeaway here and the main reason I linked his article has zero to do with how many games he watched or didn’t watch.

 

[yianik]

I think Hughes/Gorton will try to go after star players in free agency and they might not be successful but the attempt itself might give them more information as to why they aren't able to and see if they can shift that mindset.

Getting one star off FA can change how it's viewed by other players. I know they want to make the Canadiens a destination for the elite again and this is part of that.

I don't have concern about their vision since Hughes has been adamant multiple times that they won't make short term moves, everything will be to have sustained success for long term.

I'm thinking that as an agent, Hughes already has plenty of info on how players that are UFA or not, view playing for the Habs.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Kulak at his best is similar to Chariot. But he just isn’t as consistent as Chariot.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Yeah I’m out to lunch. Chara wasn’t a PMD apparently. He just played 30 mins a game for the Bruins mindlessly throwing the puck off the boards like Gorges everytime.

The Sens got destroyed by the speedy Sabres in the 2006 playoffs and there was a belief that Chara, who was 29 years old at the time, wouldn’t be able to progress in the post-lockout NHL. You can talk all you want about Norris placement, but he was 2nd in a season when Bryan McCabe was 4th and Adrian Aucoin was 5th. No one ever thought they were franchise defencemen. It was all about goals, +/-, and playing in Canada. I mean Sheldon Souray of all players got votes.

So Weber was a PMD too? What in the world are you talking about? You think PMDs are the only who can log huge minutes?

I'll just end this here and say you're wrong and every tangible evidence that we can point to says that you're wrong too (accolades, contract, reputation, etc.). All you have is +/- and playing in Canada (lol). This really shouldn't be indulged any further. Yeah, you're really out to lunch, friend-o.

 

[Vachon23]

He’s clearly writing from an advanced stats perspective. Nothing to do with how many Habs games he watched, he wasn’t arguing anecdotal evidence.

Also, a hockey writer for a national service cant be expected to watch every game available. He’s not a fan watching every game.

The takeaway here and the main reason I linked his article has zero to do with how many games he watched or didn’t watch.

Yes I know, it shows that the advanced stats can be useful but they have there limitation.

 

[le_sean]

So Weber was a PMD too? What in the world are you talking about? You think PMDs are the only who can log huge minutes?

I'll just end this here and say you're wrong and every tangible evidence that we can point to says that you're wrong too (accolades, contract, reputation, etc.). All you have is +/- and playing in Canada (lol). This really shouldn't be indulged any further. Yeah, you're really out to lunch, friend-o.

How is reputation tangible evidence? You’ve also provided nothing other than “well he was voted”! Nice try though.

I mean Chara not being a PMD is laughable. You only classify 5’9 defenders as such? He just racked up over 300 assists by flipping the puck in the air.

 

[Heffyhoof]

A four game win streak, a rumour from LeBrun, and so begins the next phase of the fanbase's bipolarity.

Suddenly advocating for a quick turn around like NY is silly, Suzuki and Caufield are great, but will never bring you to a cup as this team has too many serious holes. I'm also not up in arms about the UFA splash rumour, could just mean he's planning on signing 6-8 guys and one Letang like player or something to plug holes in the NHL and AHL after this year's trade deadline and draft day trading (Where some bigger contracts might move after playing good for the rest of the season).

 

[WeThreeKings]

I'm thinking that ad an agent, Hughes already has plenty of info on how players that are UFA or not, view playing for the Habs.

He definitely does but that doesn't mean the landscape doesn't shift either.

 

[Runner77]

I'm thinking that ad an agent, Hughes already has plenty of info on how players that are UFA or not, view playing for the Habs.

Maybe Hughes knows something or some players he used to represent, owe him one.

 

[yianik]

Maybe Hughes knows something or some players he used to represent, owe him one.

Lol, I wonder if players call agents when in compromising situations. Then we may have something.

 

[Goalfield22]

1) Agreed, valid question.

2) Disagreed. NY is now one of the better teams in the league after bottoming out just 2 years prior to this. But all 3 of their top 10 picks over that timeframe have backfired and/or done little. I wouldn't call that everything going right.

That's exactly my point. They are doing well NOW, but with the failed draft picks (assuming) it doesn't look like it will last long-term.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

How is reputation tangible evidence? You’ve also provided nothing other than “well he was voted”! Nice try though.

Articles mentioning that he was the biggest name on the market fits into that. Like, what kind of idiotic revisionism do you have to have to think Chara broke out in Boston? Dude gets paid 20% of the cap, slapped the C on him right away, is All-NHL and a Norris nominee for years before signing with the Bruins, but, no, he wasn't perceived a superstar because le_sean who lived in Ottawa and watches hockey said so.

This post is embarassing because it's the worst kind of trolling too. You tried to make a legitimate argument, failed, and now resort to trolling because you've got nothing left.

 

[Runner77]

Yes I know, it shows that the advanced stats can be useful but they have there limitation.

Not exactly. Some GMs are going to ascribe weight to those advanced stats that cast Chiarot in a negative light and that will impact what suitors may be willing to pay to get him. Wth more and more teams embracing analytics, they are going to play a part in GM decision making.

Hopefully there will be one team out there who will be willing to cough up a first. Since it happened with Savard last year, it can still happen now.

 

[le_sean]

Articles mentioning that he was the biggest name on the market fits into that. Like, what kind of idiotic revisionism do you have to have to think Chara broke out in Boston? Dude gets paid 20% of the cap, slapped the C on him right away, is All-NHL and a Norris nominee for years before signing with the Bruins, but, no, he wasn't perceived a superstar because le_sean who lived in Ottawa and watches hockey said so.

This post is embarassing because it's the worst kind of trolling too. You tried to make a legitimate argument, failed, and now resort to trolling because you've got nothing left.

I never said he wasn’t a marquee free agent. I said his contract was laughable at the time and it was. Just because you might be 14 years old and don’t remember isn’t my fault. It was a gamble that paid off. Good for the Bruins. But it was an insane price to pay at the time. Just like Scott Gomez and Chris Drury, both of whom didn’t live up to it.

It’s not trolling. He wasn’t seen as a Niedermayer, Pronger, Lidstrom, Zubov. To say otherwise is outright lying.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I never said he wasn’t a marquee free agent. I said his contract was laughable at the time and it was. Just because you might be 14 years old and don’t remember isn’t my fault. It was a gamble that paid off. Good for the Bruins. But it was an insane price to pay at the time. Just like Scott Gomez and Chris Drury, both of whom didn’t live up to it.

It’s not trolling. He wasn’t seen as a Niedermayer, Pronger, Lidstrom. To say otherwise is outright lying.

Just eat the loss, dude. The very first thing you said was 'he hadn't really broken out yet'.

By the way, what do Niedermayer, Pronger, Lidstrom have to do with anything? Is there a cap on how many superstar defenseman can play at one time?

 

[Vachon23]

Not exactly. Some GMs are going to ascribe weight to those advanced stats that cast Chiarot in a negative light and that will impact what suitors may be willing to pay to get him. Wth more and more teams embracing analytics, they are going to play a part in GM decision making.

Hopefully there will be one team out there who will be willing to cough up a first. Since it happened with Savard last year, it can still happen now.

and hopefully a analytic team will like Kulak and pay a good price for him !

 

[le_sean]

Just eat the loss, dude. The very first thing you said was 'he hadn't really broken out yet'.

Not as one of the Top 5 defencemen in the league, like he was going to be starting Year 2 in Boston. He wasn’t even considered the top defenceman on his team by his own fanbase, even you admitted it.

 

[Runner77]

and hopefully a analytic team will like Kulak and pay a good price for him !

Hopefully but the return will likely be a 3rd since he’s more of a third pairing D.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Hopefully but the return will likely be a 3rd since he’s more of a third pairing D.

3rd in 2023 is my expected return.

 

[Captain Mountain]

and hopefully a analytic team will like Kulak and pay a good price for him !

Analytic teams are in the habit of underpaying for guys, not overpaying. That's one of the ways that they get value from "analytics".

 

[lamp9post]

and hopefully a analytic team will like Kulak and pay a good price for him !

I think Kulak gets a 4th easily. Maybe a 3rd. He's ideal depth for a playoff team IMO. Cheap to acquire and can step in and play on the third pairing and not hurt you.

 

[Vachon23]

Hopefully but the return will likely be a 3rd since he’s more of a third pairing D.

That would be more then a fine return