Speculation: Trade Ideas and Free Agency XXIII

[57special]

Thinking through the expansion draft more, I am thinking you put Dumba together with Scandella, and you go get a 1st line center. Then you just patch the blueline the best you can.

Trouble is, what true #1C's are available? Any ones that are come with warts.

 

[TaLoN]

Thinking through the expansion draft more, I am thinking you put Dumba together with Scandella, and you go get a 1st line center. Then you just patch the blueline the best you can.

Completely disagree. I think it's possible to keep them all still, nothing is guaranteed at this point.

 

[BagHead]

Interesting Senator's blog on the importance of having a 1st line center.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Jared-Crozier/On-The-1-vs-Elite-Centres-Debate/215/78033

Good article. Nothing we haven't heard before, but his list of 1st line centers was interesting. Basically, Koivu is one, but isn't an elite one (which we obviously all know). In order for our team to fit the mold of past cup winners, we need Koivu to be our #2, or we need him or Staal to suddenly and inexplicably have an elite resurgence year.

Or we need to be the 02-03 Devils. I think that's the likelier way we could do it. A team with depth that nobody else could match, and a stellar blueline in front of a great goalie. Dubnyk isn't a "great" goalie the way Brodeur was, but he certainly can get hot the way Brodeur did.

They MUST take at least 14 forwards, 9 defensemen and 3 goaltenders. The last 4 players can be of any position.

Defense will be the player most attractive on most every team, so if you have a quality forward exposed, they are more likely to take the forward since the selection there is a lot slimmer.

Exactly, that's why it's entirely possible they take Zucker, Haula or (if he has a comeback year) Staal, if we leave one of them available. That said, I think it's smart to operate this season under the assumption that our best exposed player will be the one they take. At the moment, that would be a defenseman.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Completely disagree. I think it's possible to keep them all still, nothing is guaranteed at this point.

Zucker has a 20+20 year this year, trade them Olofsson/Folin for a 4th round pick to entice them not to take a defenseman.

 

[PuckInTheNards]

Good article. Nothing we haven't heard before, but his list of 1st line centers was interesting. Basically, Koivu is one, but isn't an elite one (which we obviously all know). In order for our team to fit the mold of past cup winners, we need Koivu to be our #2, or we need him or Staal to suddenly and inexplicably have an elite resurgence year.

Well Koivu just had a resurgent year and Staal's younger and in his prime was more talented than Koivu ever was. Can't help but be a little bit hopeful...

 

[NotYou]

Thinking through the expansion draft more, I am thinking you put Dumba together with Scandella, and you go get a 1st line center. Then you just patch the blueline the best you can.

In theory I agree. But after thinking about it I don't see any fit out there. Keep in mind the team we trade with also has to deal with expansion rules. Who could take on those guys without exposing someone valuable? What value does the player vegas likely takes have? That all affects the value of the package we send. If you see a deal that makes sense for the other team, by all means post it because I don't see anything.

They MUST take at least 14 forwards, 9 defensemen and 3 goaltenders. The last 4 players can be of any position.

Defense will be the player most attractive on most every team, so if you have a quality forward exposed, they are more likely to take the forward since the selection there is a lot slimmer.

Thanks for the clarification. I think our exposed dman will be better than most, just off of of memory of who fans think will be protected.

 

[nickschultzfan]

Trouble is, what true #1C's are available? Any ones that are come with warts.

Probably right.

Larkin, MacKinnon, Galchenyuk would be guys I would explore because those teams really need defense.

Mackinnon is interesting is Colorado does a Barrie for RNH trade.

 

[keppel146]

Probably right.

Larkin, MacKinnon, Galchenyuk would be guys I would explore because those teams really need defense.

Mackinnon is interesting is Colorado does a Barrie for RNH trade.

too bad those teams need offense just as bad. MTL and DET are starving for offensive talent.

 

[nickschultzfan]

too bad those teams need offense just as bad. MTL and DET are starving for offensive talent.

I think Detroit as an organization takes a different view of Larkin and its internal needs than the fanbase. Of course the fanbase is going to say Larkin is completely untouchable.

But Detroit is royally screwed when it comes to defensemen and they have maybe the worst blueline in the league and it isn't getting any better anytime soon.

And, there is an argument internally with them that Larkin had a great freshman season, but isn't not like he scored 70 points, and there is a long history of freshman forwards bursting onto the scene and then plateauing.

Of course, in making that kind of trade, the Wild would be saying that's not true, but don't think Detroit is asking themselves what they really have and what they really need.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

I think Detroit as an organization takes a different view of Larkin and its internal needs than the fanbase. Of course the fanbase is going to say Larkin is completely untouchable.

But Detroit is royally screwed when it comes to defensemen and they have maybe the worst blueline in the league and it isn't getting any better anytime soon.

And, there is an argument internally with them that Larkin had a great freshman season, but isn't not like he scored 70 points, and there is a long history of freshman forwards bursting onto the scene and then plateauing.

Of course, in making that kind of trade, the Wild would be saying that's not true, but don't think Detroit is asking themselves what they really have and what they really need.

You've been involved in those internal arguments?

 

[Uberdachen]

If they give him up, they are right where we are, which is begging for a Larkin to support their aging #1C. And I suspect they will bet it'll be easier to fix their D than land another homegrown future face of the franchise #1C.

 

[nickschultzfan]

You've been involved in those internal arguments?

Oh snap are you pulling the "you don't have insider information card"?

Because if you are, shut down this board and pretty much every other message board on the planet, because every board is based on speculation.

 

[nickschultzfan]

If they give him up, they are right where we are, which is begging for a Larkin to support their aging #1C. And I suspect they will bet it'll be easier to fix their D than land another homegrown future face of the franchise #1C.

Detroit Red Wings defense below. Their house and barn are both burning. I'd argue their blueline is the house.

Defensemen
# NAME HEIGHT WEIGHT DATE OF BIRTH AGE BIRTH PLACE
65 DANNY DEKEYSER 6' 3" 191 MAR 7, 1990 26 DETROIT, MI, USA
52 JONATHAN ERICSSON 6' 4" 220 MAR 2, 1984 32 KARLSKRONA, SWE
25 MIKE GREEN 6' 1" 207 OCT 12, 1985 30 CALGARY, AB, CAN
55 NIKLAS KRONWALL "A" 6' 0" 194 JAN 12, 1981 35 STOCKHOLM, SWE
47 ALEXEY MARCHENKO 6' 3" 210 JAN 2, 1992 24 MOSCOW, RUS
2 BRENDAN SMITH 6' 2" 211 FEB 8, 1989 27 MIMICO, ON, CAN

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Oh snap are you pulling the "you don't have insider information card"?

Because if you are, shut down this board and pretty much every other message board on the planet, because every board is based on speculation.

"And, there is an argument internally with them that Larkin..."

Your "I think" was two paragraphs ago. I guess I misconstrued the appearance of a definitive statement in the 3rd paragraph as something other than speculative ideas.

Can I ask what the basis for your speculation is then? Because I have heard nothing about Detroit shopping Larkin around, or anything that would signal them thinking he was anything else other than their best #1C option for the future.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Detroit Red Wings defense below. Their house and barn are both burning. I'd argue their blueline is the house.

Defensemen
# NAME HEIGHT WEIGHT DATE OF BIRTH AGE BIRTH PLACE
65 DANNY DEKEYSER 6' 3" 191 MAR 7, 1990 26 DETROIT, MI, USA
52 JONATHAN ERICSSON 6' 4" 220 MAR 2, 1984 32 KARLSKRONA, SWE
25 MIKE GREEN 6' 1" 207 OCT 12, 1985 30 CALGARY, AB, CAN
55 NIKLAS KRONWALL "A" 6' 0" 194 JAN 12, 1981 35 STOCKHOLM, SWE
47 ALEXEY MARCHENKO 6' 3" 210 JAN 2, 1992 24 MOSCOW, RUS
2 BRENDAN SMITH 6' 2" 211 FEB 8, 1989 27 MIMICO, ON, CAN

And their centers are 32 year old Nielsen, Helm, Larkin, Glendening and Sheahan, with no prospects that project as anything close to a #1C. Trading Larkin for defense is pretty much the definition of shuffling deck chairs.

 

[nickschultzfan]

"And, there is an argument internally with them that Larkin..."

Your "I think" was two paragraphs ago. I guess I misconstrued the appearance of a definitive statement in the 3rd paragraph as something other than speculative ideas.

Can I ask what the basis for your speculation is then? Because I have heard nothing about Detroit shopping Larkin around, or anything that would signal them thinking he was anything else other than their best #1C option for the future.

Word to the wise, nobody on this board has insider information and I have never made that claim (other than that one time my Dad ran into Burns at the gun range the day after he was traded ).

That has to be an underlying assumption in the conversation or else we are arguing over nothing.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Word to the wise, nobody on this board has insider information and I have never made that claim (other than that one time my Dad ran into Burns at the gun range the day after he was traded ).

That has to be an underlying assumption in the conversation or else we are arguing over nothing.

Ok then.

I disagree that Detroit's management has had any discussion about trading their best chance for elite forward talent in the post-Datsyuk/Zetterberg era. While Nielsen is a good middle-six pick up for them, Sheahan very likely tops out at as a #3C, whereas Larkin has legit #1C potential. Detroit would be much better served upgrading their D with guys like Nyquist, Svechnikov, Mantha (wingers) and draft picks rather than their best young player at the most important position.

 

[NotYou]

Probably right.

Larkin, MacKinnon, Galchenyuk would be guys I would explore because those teams really need defense.

Mackinnon is interesting is Colorado does a Barrie for RNH trade.

Disagree on all. Mack is off limits, full stop. Duchene I could maaaybe see if barrie for rnh happens. I can't remember if zadorov needs to be protected. If he does it's probably doa as well. Fwiw I made a ridiculous overpayment proposal, along the lines of what we're considering, for duchene and it was emphatically shot down.

Gally and larkin are both on teams that need offence more than we do. We wouldn't give them up in their position.

Like I said earlier, I think waiting for Johnson to come on the market is our best bet. But if he has another season like last, he isn't the answer either.

 

[nickschultzfan]

Ok then.

I disagree that Detroit's management has had any discussion about trading their best chance for elite forward talent in the post-Datsyuk/Zetterberg era. While Nielsen is a good middle-six pick up for them, Sheahan very likely tops out at as a #3C, whereas Larkin has legit #1C potential. Detroit would be much better served upgrading their D with guys like Nyquist, Svechnikov, Mantha (wingers) and draft picks rather than their best young player at the most important position.

In a vacuum maybe.

But it is bigger speculation to claim they don't know about the dumpster fire situation their blue line is in. Or that they didn't just watch the Oilers implode for the same defect for years, wasting many good years of their promising forwards. Or how rare it is for any team to trade 2nd liner wingers for quality young top4 Dmen. Or that most NHL contenders teams need a good amount of Dmen in their prime.

They have had plenty of calls on that. And what they are finding out is that those deals you just suggested are very hard to pull off. Oilers failed doing that with the Eberles, Yaks, Gagners, etc. for the better part of a decade. They had to pay a 1st line star winger to get a decent Dman.

The Wings are finding out that other teams don't want the Nyquist or the Sheahan or Tatar for their 25 and under Dman with upside.

Those other teams are asking for Larkin. And Detroit, if they haven't already, will start asking how much they value him. Flash in the pan or real deal.

And, when they are doing that, I would like to have an offer on the table that blows the competition out of the water.

 

[Mancini79]

Thinking through the expansion draft more, I am thinking you put Dumba together with Scandella, and you go get a 1st line center. Then you just patch the blueline the best you can.

But who? You could get a good, young 1C for that pair, no doubt. I wouldn't put it past GMCF to do something like this, but centers of the caliber we need (Not RNH) aren't available yet. He wants to see if, further down the road, expansion, cap space etc forces teams to dangle the right guy and get one then.

Alex Galchenyuk would be awesome playing between Parise/Coyle.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Larkin isn't being traded. You can forget that idea.

 

[57special]

RNH for Barrie makes no sense for CO. The last thing they need is LESS Dmen .

 

[J22*]

RNH for Barrie makes no sense for CO. The last thing they need is LESS Dmen .

Losing Barrie hurts the offense but probably doesn't have much affect on the D. Guy is a turnstile.

 

[hirawl]

Our best chance of getting a true #1C is to go for a young one who's team might think they can afford to lose him if they get something of right value back. That's basically RNH or Reinhart.

I would be willing to go all in to get Reinhart. Now's the time to pull the trigger on that one. He will be too expensive before too soon.

It's also possible Pominville could be part of the deal. Which is a plus.

 

[Nharris31]

Our best chance of getting a true #1C is to go for a young one who's team might think they can afford to lose him if they get something of right value back. That's basically RNH or Reinhart.

I would be willing to go all in to get Reinhart. Now's the time to pull the trigger on that one. He will be too expensive before too soon.

It's also possible Pominville could be part of the deal. Which is a plus.

Fletcher already asked for Reinhart when buffalo aked for Brodin. Murray said no way.