Speculation: Trade Ideas and Free Agency XXI

[nickschultzfan]

It's not the Minnesota PariSuter's. It's the MN Wild. The Wild, like all successful organizations, have to look to the future, as well as maintain the present. The idea would be to get the Parise of the future, but not have to pay 100M for him in FA(i.e. Stamkos).

It's not a risk free option.

Timing is everything.

If we are waiting for guys coming 5 years from now, why are we wasting time with anybody who is going to be 30+ in 5 years?

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Height is nice for reach and leverage...grew up watching Beliveau and Espo...the things they could do with that reach...but my worry about keller is his physique. Is he a slight build, or more of a wrestlers build like Domi? I would say slight. The NHL can be tough on players like that.

Yeah, I'm not worried. At 5'10" you can settle in pretty easily at 180-190 pounds. The USNTDP lists him at 168 right now so he doesn't have that much further to go.

Making it to the NHL, in general, is the exception to the rule, whether you're 5'9" or 6'4". I've seen enough smaller guys survive (and thrive) in the NHL to be scared off.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Timing is everything.

If we are waiting for guys coming 5 years from now, why are we wasting time with anybody who is going to be 30+ in 5 years?

Because you don't have to be 100% in any direction at one time. You put together the best team that can, and if you have a piece that could be deemed expendable in the current in order to benefit the future, it's something to be considered. The argument occurs when deciding if Brodin or Dumba or Spurgeon or anybody else is truly "expendable".

Most people who are discussing giving up those players right now, are doing so because they don't think that removing them would sink us. Brodin goes out and maybe Olofsson steps in and gives us 85% of what Brodin did; or Dumba goes out and Reilly brings 90% of what he did, etc...

 

[nickschultzfan]

Trading away our 1 or 2 good trading assets for picks, and then going into the next 3-5 seasons with basically the same roster, while praying the Tuchs, JEEs, etc. will ride in and get this team to the next level, is the definition of insanity.

1) We either do field surgery on the current team, use those assets for a roster player that will help us immediately; or

2) We be honest and do a real rebuild, by trading away everybody we can over the age of 28, and be prepared to tank with our young core.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Respectfully disagree.

 

[MN_Gopher]

Trading away our 1 or 2 good trading assets for picks, and then going into the next 3-5 seasons with basically the same roster, while praying the Tuchs, JEEs, etc. will ride in and get this team to the next level, is the definition of insanity.

1) We either do field surgery on the current team, use those assets for a roster player that will help us immediately; or

2) We be honest and do a real rebuild, by trading away everybody we can over the age of 28, and be prepared to tank with our young core.

If picks always worked out. EDM should be the best team in the NHL. Is it 6/7 or 8/9 top 10 picks in the last few years plus the one upcoming.

When was the last time Detroit was in the top 10? How many cups and playoffs have they been in?

 

[nickschultzfan]

If picks always worked out. EDM should be the best team in the NHL. Is it 6/7 or 8/9 top 10 picks in the last few years plus the one upcoming.

When was the last time Detroit was in the top 10? How many cups and playoffs have they been in?

Is this responding to my post or the posts where people think it's a good idea to trade Brodin/Dumba for a 1st in this year's weak draft?

 

[forthewild]

People need to calm down with this mythical trade fix it solution. This team is capable of competing in the palyoffs. but first we need to have them go a full season with out falling apart in December like they did EVERY year under Yeo.

A coach who had have a progressive season will do wonders. We often talk about players needing to be consistent but same goes for a coach. Yeo was just plain awful, he didn't progress and he didn't do much to innovate.

Before we take the butcher knife to the team and to the prospects just to take a chance on another prospect we need to get a real coach in here.

 

[keppel146]

there's a huge difference between trading ONE dman for picks/player than blowing up the whole team. If we trade away a young dman it's because we believe the guy(s) coming back will help us for years to come, which I am totally ok with. We still need to trade somebody because of the logjam and expansion draft(per the rumors). question is just who and when.

 

[Saga of the Elk]

there's a huge difference between trading ONE dman for picks/player than blowing up the whole team. If we trade away a young dman it's because we believe the guy(s) coming back will help us for years to come, which I am totally ok with. We still need to trade somebody because of the logjam and expansion draft(per the rumors). question is just who and when.

Well said. The other part is this: although Chicago doesn't have a great prospect pool, every other team in our division has at least one guy to add next season (or who debuted already) who will produce some points on an ELC. The Jets are adding Kyle Connor and Patrik Laine to Ehlers and Petan. Chicago added Panarin. St. Louis, Parayko and Fabbri. Colorado will add Rantanen at least. Nashville has Fiala and Kamenev, among others. Dallas has guys like Julius Honka and Brett Ritchie and the rest of the west is similarly or better situated (McDavid, Draisaitl, Virtanen, McCann, Nick Ritchie, Theodore, Domi, Strome, Duclair, Meier, etc.) The Wild has Alex Tuch and maybe 10 million for three or four forwards - so bringing up Iowa's best - and a goalie if they find a taker for Kuemper.

Again, the Wild shouldn't have to trade a key piece like Brodin or Dumba (or Spurgeon or Scandella) but there is no easy way back to progress without getting better in that key area: cheap young forwards who score points. Relying on Jason Zucker to be that guy says all you need to know.

If the plan is Nolan Patrick though...

 

[nickschultzfan]

The Wild did not stumble this year because of lack of reinforcements from Iowa.

Chicago does not win a Cup because they bring up 1, 2, or 3 depth drafted players a year.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

The Wild did not stumble this year because of lack of reinforcements from Iowa.

Chicago does not win a Cup because they bring up 1, 2, or 3 depth drafted players a year.

No, they win a Cup by being lucky that 29 other teams passed on Duncan Keith, by being lucky that they won the draft lottery in the right year, and by being luck that St. Louis and Pittsburgh made drafting mistakes ahead of them.

Now, you could argue that their hideousness and irrelevancy put them into position to benefit from those mistakes and luck. But that's the risk.

 

[nickschultzfan]

We are losing the forest on account of the trees.

We either go with the current group, with Suter, Parise, Koivu, and Dubnyk have some good years with, and Spurgeon, Scandella, Granlund, Coyle, Nino, etc. about to enter their primes.

Or we don't and we rebuild.

 

[Wild11MN]

There's a middle ground. Should San Jose or St Louis have gone full rebuild after last year? Sharks missed the playoffs and have old veterans. Blues traded a core piece away in Oshie.

Fletcher wasn't brought back to rebuild, and he wasn't brought back to keep the team the same either. Also got to account for the expansion draft coming up.

 

[forthewild]

We are losing the forest on account of the trees.

We either go with the current group, with Suter, Parise, Koivu, and Dubnyk have some good years with, and Spurgeon, Scandella, Granlund, Coyle, Nino, etc. about to enter their primes.

Or we don't and we rebuild.

Well given that Suter, Parise, have a no move clause means they are not going anywhere.

There is no reason why Suter and Parise can't stay on the team and are going to be transitioning to a younger core over the next 3-5 years.

We have enough good pieces on this team to build on, and trying to do a "rebuild" won't happen. We are not bad enough to get a #1 overall pick and there is no guarantee what that player pans out.

 

[Saga of the Elk]

The Wild did not stumble this year because of lack of reinforcements from Iowa.

Chicago does not win a Cup because they bring up 1, 2, or 3 depth drafted players a year.

Lack of reinforcements is just part of the bigger picture. The players who got to experience finishing last in the AHL twice now are the ones who will be counted on to make the Wild better next season.

Guys like Teravainen, Shaw, and Saad (2011 and 2012 Draft picks) actually were pretty important to winning the Cup for Chicago in 2015 by the way. Yes, the stars come first and they take up a lot of the cap, so you need good young players to supplement that with production.

You think the Wild can rely on its draft picks from 2012 (Dumba) and 2013 (Olofsson) to play a similar role as the aforementioned players? Have to find cheap depth with upside somewhere else - thus the potentially high cost.

 

[MN_Gopher]

the best thing the wild can do, i hate this, is wait.

Take it one year at a time until Vanek, Pomms, Koivu are off the books. Leave that space for a deadline superstar and ride it out.

There is no one(affordable) player that will make us take the leap. If we are smart, give ourselves options at the deadline we could set up for serious cup run.

More than anything see what a new coach can do with the talent thats here. We have a long list of maybes.

 

[nickschultzfan]

There's a middle ground. Should San Jose or St Louis have gone full rebuild after last year? Sharks missed the playoffs and have old veterans. Blues traded a core piece away in Oshie.

Fletcher wasn't brought back to rebuild, and he wasn't brought back to keep the team the same either. Also got to account for the expansion draft coming up.

I missed the part where San Jose and St. Louis traded their promising young players for draft picks.

Because that we what we are talking about.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

1. Finding a way to be rid of Vanek/Pominville, and keeping the promising young players is a no brainer.

2. If #1 cannot be accomplished, then getting some sort of asset/return for those promising young players, instead of losing them for nothing, is also a no brainer.

 

[nickschultzfan]

Lack of reinforcements is just part of the bigger picture. The players who got to experience finishing last in the AHL twice now are the ones who will be counted on to make the Wild better next season.

Guys like Teravainen, Shaw, and Saad (2011 and 2012 Draft picks) actually were pretty important to winning the Cup for Chicago in 2015 by the way. Yes, the stars come first and they take up a lot of the cap, so you need good young players to supplement that with production.

You think the Wild can rely on its draft picks from 2012 (Dumba) and 2013 (Olofsson) to play a similar role as the aforementioned players? Have to find cheap depth with upside somewhere else - thus the potentially high cost.

Thank you for acknowledging that even the best draft picks are 3-4 years from helping a team in the most favorable situations (depth players on a team with elite skill players above them).

Now, what is your estimate timeline for draft picks from an average scouting department on a team that needs those draft picks to be BETTER than the rest of the team?

Then, add that estimate to the ages of the Wild's current roster and ask yourself what you have.

 

[grN1g]

well if we are not trading for a high pick and potential young goal scoring stud in 2-3 years we are trading for players and signing FA's like Backes or Okposo this year, and maybe trading for a guy like RNH/Ryan.

Im perfectly ok with that cause we are in win as best as we can mode as long as Parise and Suter are here, and if we do a rebuild i want packages to start it off with based off deals around them and the whole org committing to it. Unless of course we did something like trade for a top3 and got a player who can step in right now.

 

[TwiztedHeat]

Fact of the matter is we're going to be losing a D-man, whether by trade or through the expansion draft. Why not move one for a high draft pick and get a guy who will be protected from expansion drafts and fit right into the prospect pool like Tuch, JEE, Kaprizov, Greenway and Belpedio? We can accomplish both acquiring help now and help for the future by moving two of Scandella/Brodin/Dumba for pieces like a top 10 pick (EDM, BUF, ARZ) and a top 6 C (RNH, Zibanejad). You take pieces from your strengths and use them to fix weaknesses. As crazy as it sounds, PA has been all about getting Andrew Shaw on this team and really he'd be a great fit here if our circumstances were different and that's what we need to rectify. We absolutely need a top end scorer and trading Brodin or Dumba could net us that pick that gets us Keller (is going to be very good) or PLD (could be our Toews).

 

[nickschultzfan]

1. Finding a way to be rid of Vanek/Pominville, and keeping the promising young players is a no brainer.

2. If #1 cannot be accomplished, then getting some sort of asset/return for those promising young players, instead of losing them for nothing, is also a no brainer.

If we are going to lose a player due to the expansion draft, we will trade multiple players for a single roster player, or we will trade that player for a protected prospect who is NHL ready. Not some guy who needs to bake for half a decade.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

If we are going to lose a player due to the expansion draft, we will trade multiple players for a single roster player, or we will trade that player for a protected prospect who is NHL ready. Not some guy who needs to bake for half a decade.

And the team that we're trading with a) has these kinds of players available, and b) has enough unprotected spots to not have to worry about any of the multiple players that they received being taken in the draft?

I'm very interested in which team this is.

 

[Saga of the Elk]

Thank you for acknowledging that even the best draft picks are 3-4 years from helping a team in the most favorable situations (depth players on a team with elite skill players above them).

Now, what is your estimate timeline for draft picks from an average scouting department on a team that needs those draft picks to be BETTER than the rest of the team?

Then, add that estimate to the ages of the Wild's current roster and ask yourself what you have.

Saad and Shaw (and Kruger) were also on the 2013 Cup team. I think the Chicago lesson is to develop a young core, then add your Marian Hossa as a final piece. But you can't have the success with bad drafting, no.

For example, St. Louis would not be having the success they're enjoying without Fabbri (a late 2014 first-rounder), so I disagree that you have to wait for impact players.

My feeling is Fletch has lost the script and I hope he doesn't trade young guys like Brodin or Dumba, who do represent the kind of foundational pieces successful teams hold.