Trade, FA, Rumour Thread, Summer Edition

[Mortimer Snerd]

For a guy that has not played a minute in the NHL? Yikes.

Compared to Copp, an experienced former 4th rd pick, 3rd line winger who we are in danger of losing anyway and Heinola who has 13 games under his belt? I don't see the guy being unproven at the NHL level as being the significant factor here.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

they have lucas raymond as well, drafted ahead of perfetti approximately one year ago

Yup. I don't think he is on the same level as Seider and Perfetti though. Just for a start, he is a winger.

 

[Upperdeckjet]

I have no problem replacing our defensemen with size if they have equal skill or better and actual talent to the players they are replacing. Getting bigger isn't a solution if the players are pylons. It's a broken record of we need bigger players.
No we don't. We need better defensemen. If the better defensemen are bigger then great, everyone is happy.

You have stated we do not need bigger defensemen to compete, just better. Your view is certainly as valid as mine, but I could not disagree more. The equa-talent (or better) replacement players must be bigger defensemen for us to be successful in the playoffs.

As to throwing a couple of big pylons onto the ice, well, I didn't think that variable was in question and wouldn't expect Chevy to be looking for that type of player.

 

[KingBogo]

Yup. I don't think he is on the same level as Seider and Perfetti though. Just for a start, he is a winger.

Obviously the Wings think Raymond is on the same level or higher than Perfetti. They selected him 4th overall with only Laf, Byfield and Stutzle off the board.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

We need a top 4 dmen to play with Morrissey and we need to integrate youth to push us forward.

Morrissey xxxx
Samberg/Stanley Pionk
Heionla Demelo

Having a good first pairing makes everyone else's jobs much easier. It allows one of our older LD to grow into a defensive/physical partner for Pionk (The type of partner he plays well with). It also allows DeMelo to mentor Heinola on what should be a good third pairing.

I'm not that worried about out forward core, Ves is a d plus 5 player and should be ready, Harkins and d plus 7 and should be ready to play a key depth role. I'm also expecting a big bounce back from Dubois which pushes things forward a lot. Throw in Cole who could have a Suzuki like start to his career and we have the horses up front.

Yup - but that 1RD is the bottleneck.

There is a problem making our best D prospects fit with what we already have. Moe won't play Stanley plus 2 rookies so there is no place for 1 of those 3. Probably Stanley plays 2LD and Samberg gets stuck in the AHL. Meanwhile Heinola is stuck on the 3rd pair. Those are in the 'good problems to have' bin though - if we can get that 1RD.

I think that plus the bounce-back from PLD makes us a contender.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I think the answer to the bolded is pretty obvious. DeMelo was given the task of trying to optimize Stanley's development. IMO the organization has far greater aspirations for Stanley and see him as a more important player than most posters and maximizing his development was an organizational priority. We will soon see which of Samberg or Heinola is the next defenseman to be given optimal development deployment.

That has been stated here many times - but it does not fit the facts. Moe was playing DeMelo on the 3rd pair with Beaulieu too. He was stapled to the 3rd pair regardless of who the 3LD was.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Obviously the Wings think Raymond is on the same level or higher than Perfetti. They selected him 4th overall with only Laf, Byfield and Stutzle off the board.

Absolutely. At the time. I have to wonder what they were thinking.

 

[KingBogo]

That has been stated here many times - but it does not fit the facts. Moe was playing DeMelo on the 3rd pair with Beaulieu too. He was stapled to the 3rd pair regardless of who the 3LD was.

DeMelo and BooBoo played on average of 4:45 mins a game together. Hardly a pair locked in stone. Actually out of those 3 Stanley played more mins per game with Booboo then DeMelo did. In actuality in total 5-5 minutes played last season DeMelo played more 5-5 minutes with Morrissey than either Stanley or BooBoo.

 

[voyageur]

People here are WAY too down on Poolman. He is a good 3RD. He is a very poor 1RD. Moe has been making him look bad by asking him to punch above his weight. We don't have any need whatsoever for an upgrade on Poolman on the 3rd pair. We need an upgrade on Poolman on the 1st pair.

I could live with DeMelo on the 1st pair, but after this year I don't trust Moe to play him there. WTF was he thinking?

I have no interest in Barrie at all. Not that he is bad. Just the wrong type. Another undersized Dman who leans more toward offence than defense.

I think keeping our powder dry and gradually improving from our prospect pool/draft is an option. We have quite a few promising D prospects. But I have a hard time making the prospects fit our needs. Heinola is the best one and he isn't a natural fit for either Morrissey or Pionk. So he gets relegated to the 3rd pair. Samberg is a better style but shoots from the wrong side to fit with Morrissey. He could play his off side but we aren't even sure he is a 2nd pair player, much less 1st pair. So he could compete with Stanley for 2nd and 3rd LD. But where does that leave Heinola? How many rookies/near rookies will Moe play?

We need some newer F too but Perfetti, Vesa and Harkins will help there. I think people are forgetting how good Harkins was in the '20 season, when he was given a chance.

But the problem I see with that approach is that we can't improve far enough, fast enough to get out of the mushy middle. As the new young players come in, veterans will age out and we are just treading water.

I agree with pretty much everything you say there. Except that I don't think we can go into the season with Poolman as a 3RD, and the first injury leapfrogs Poolman into the top 4. And I don't think there would be tremendous comfort level having say Poolman and Kovacevic, or might even be Beaulieu, as 2 of your 3 RD. If Pionk went down, De Melo, Poolman, Kovacevic/Beaulieu/Niku would be a below average group. I still think De Melo was put in the spot with Stanley to mentor him, from the games I noticed that De Melo was a very vocal communicator on the ice with him, and that may have been the reasoning for that decision, as it did help Stanley progressively get better as the season went on.

I am ok with taking time with Heinola. You look at how Morrissey evolved, and there wasn't a huge rush to push him in, even if he was better than Stuart or even Chiarot. It was timing more than anything. I agree that somebody is eventually going to have to transition to their offside to fit everyone, and if were Morrissey, it would a rather green left side if it were Heinola, Stanley and Samberg manning it.

But like you say window is short and waters are still murky. We have enough solid pieces to be a top 10 team, with a few more holes addressed, and depending on the expansion draft, but that's Chevy's job to make the team better, with the resources he has.

 

[voyageur]

Copp has value. You act like we will have to convince teams to take him

Any team that is trading for a player one year away from UFA is playing a dangerous game, if they can not re-sign that player, because they are making a trade deadline move, before the deadline. I agree Copp has value, but the value is in keeping him; as a rental, I don't think he's worth more than a 2nd rd pick.

 

[surixon]

Yup - but that 1RD is the bottleneck.

There is a problem making our best D prospects fit with what we already have. Moe won't play Stanley plus 2 rookies so there is no place for 1 of those 3. Probably Stanley plays 2LD and Samberg gets stuck in the AHL. Meanwhile Heinola is stuck on the 3rd pair. Those are in the 'good problems to have' bin though - if we can get that 1RD.

I think that plus the bounce-back from PLD makes us a contender.

That is what I'm banking on. Yeah only one of Heinola/Samberg will break with the team.

 

[Gil Fisher]

Yup. I don't think he is on the same level as Sieder and Perfetti though. Just for a start, he is a winger.

Scott Wheeler has Raymond ahead of Seider as late as February of this year. I'd appreciate seeing a ranking of Sieder far ahead of either Raymond or Perfetti (a couple of middling firsts).

 

[GaryPoppins]

The issue with having a guy like Poolman on the roster isn’t necessarily him but the coaches utilization of him. If it was written in stone that he was kept off the top pairing and kept strictly to his 3rd pairing role, great.

Unfortunately, the coaching staff has shown far too often that roster optimization isn’t their strongest attribute so in that case, let Poolman walk.

 

[Daximus]

Probably true - but as much because Chevy would not make that offer as because Yzerman would turn it down.

This is an iffy draft. What are the chances DRW get a top 6 C out of it? They are pretty light at C right now with only Larkin in the NHL and Veleno in the system. Veleno is a ? right now. Hasn't been setting the world on fire so far. Copp would likely be their 2C right now and Perfetti is tracking to be a top 6 C and progressing pretty quickly.

Depends on who they plan on taking at 6. But they also have Berggren who is a near PPG 20 year old C in the SHL right now and Neiderbach who is still playing Swedish Juniors at 19 but is likely going to be in SHL full time this coming season. Both are on the smaller end but like he did with Tampa, Yzerman seems to target smaller offensively skilled forwards and stock up on big bodied defencemen on the backend. Likely why he went and drafted Seider (6'3), Wallinder (6'4), Tuomisto (6'3), Kotkansalo (6'2), Cotton (6'2) and Berglund (6'2).

I think he will opt for a franchise goalie and take Wallstedt at 6, continuing to mine Sweden for talent. Also a chance he opts for a C like Mctavish or he could go with someone like Eklund who is on the smaller end but very comparable to Brayden Point. Or he goes with the big (6'5) swedish Dman in Edvinsson. Either way I don't think 27 year old middle 6 player Copp is at all what he is looking for at this stage of the rebuild. Perfetti might catch his eye but he already passed on him for Raymond so who knows.

 

[Gil Fisher]

Compared to Copp, an experienced former 4th rd pick, 3rd line winger who we are in danger of losing anyway and Heinola who has 13 games under his belt? I don't see the guy being unproven at the NHL level as being the significant factor here.

Mort, I think you're just going to have to walk back that Copp, Perfetti, Heinola and a 1st proposal.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

DeMelo and BooBoo played on average of 4:45 mins a game together. Hardly a pair locked in stone. Actually out of those 3 Stanley played more mins per game with Booboo then DeMelo did. In actuality in total 5-5 minutes played last season DeMelo played more 5-5 minutes with Morrissey than either Stanley or BooBoo.

Until late in the season and PO, DeMelo played 3rd pair all of the time. If those minutes are what ALL of the time worked out to, that's what it worked out to. The point is that DeMelo played 3rd pair regardless of who was on the other side.

 

[BatVader]

Apparently, Hamilton ended his season finale PC in Carolina by saying “the best part of this year was you guys (media) weren’t allowed in our dressing room and I didn’t have to do many interviews”....that sounds like a guy who could be interested in playing in a smaller market with less media stress.

 

[Whileee]

Apparently, Hamilton ended his season finale PC in Carolina by saying “the best part of this year was you guys (media) weren’t allowed in our dressing room and I didn’t have to do many interviews”....that sounds like a guy who could be interested in playing in a smaller market with less media stress.

He'd love Friesen and McIntyre and their muckraking journalism...

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Scott Wheeler has Raymond ahead of Seider as late as February of this year. I'd appreciate seeing a ranking of Sieder far ahead of either Raymond or Perfetti (a couple of middling firsts).

No idea who Scott Wheeler is. Why are you calling Raymond and Perfetti "middling" 1sts?

JMO, but I was surprised at DRW taking Raymond. There were both C's and D's available who were better prospects, IMO. All things being = I would always take a C or a D over a W - and I don't think that he was = to some others who were there.

If for no other reason, Seider is ahead just based on position. Seider also has the advantage of being a lot bigger - though that is no advantage without skill. He has skill.

Playing in the same league this year Raymond scored .53 ppg. Seider scored .68 ppg. Seider is a year older, but he is also a Dman.

But the real issue for us is fit for need. He is a large bodied, defense first Dman with a bit of a mean streak and who also scores well.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Depends on who they plan on taking at 6. But they also have Berggren who is a near PPG 20 year old C in the SHL right now and Neiderbach who is still playing Swedish Juniors at 19 but is likely going to be in SHL full time this coming season. Both are on the smaller end but like he did with Tampa, Yzerman seems to target smaller offensively skilled forwards and stock up on big bodied defencemen on the backend. Likely why he went and drafted Seider (6'3), Wallinder (6'4), Tuomisto (6'3), Kotkansalo (6'2), Cotton (6'2) and Berglund (6'2).

I think he will opt for a franchise goalie and take Wallstedt at 6, continuing to mine Sweden for talent. Also a chance he opts for a C like Mctavish or he could go with someone like Eklund who is on the smaller end but very comparable to Brayden Point. Or he goes with the big (6'5) swedish Dman in Edvinsson. Either way I don't think 27 year old middle 6 player Copp is at all what he is looking for at this stage of the rebuild. Perfetti might catch his eye but he already passed on him for Raymond so who knows.

I don't see any of those players as projecting all that high.

I don't disagree about Copp. He is not an ideal fit for their rebuild timeline. But every team needs solid vets as well as young stars. I think that would be his role there, a transitional player who sets an example, mentors and is good in the room.

Perfetti is definitely the main piece. If they don't like him all that much then there is no reasonable way to come up with the value, even if I am willing to overpay. I'm not offering Ehlers.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Mort, I think you're just going to have to walk back that Copp, Perfetti, Heinola and a 1st proposal.

Maybe. If Yzerman rejects it. I can't see that. IMO, it is a strong overpay already.

Assuming he accepts it, either it works out for me, we win a cup , and I am a genius armchair GM. Or it all goes pear shaped, I am an idiot, and I get fired. Fortunately, I am not relying on my salary here to support my family.

The thing is that I don't believe we can turn the Jets into a contender - and a winner - by tinkering around the edges. This suggestion is an attempt at a bold move that will actually move the needle.

I think this is a much better way to 'go all in' than spending valuable resources for rentals or giving way too much money and term for FA's. We would have Seider for a minimum 7 years.

 

[surixon]

Maybe. If Yzerman rejects it. I can't see that. IMO, it is a strong overpay already.

Assuming he accepts it, either it works out for me, we win a cup , and I am a genius armchair GM. Or it all goes pear shaped, I am an idiot, and I get fired. Fortunately, I am not relying on my salary here to support my family.

The thing is that I don't believe we can turn the Jets into a contender - and a winner - by tinkering around the edges. This suggestion is an attempt at a bold move that will actually move the needle.

I think this is a much better way to 'go all in' than spending valuable resources for rentals or giving way too much money and term for FA's. We would have Seider for a minimum 7 years.

Mort you don't get anywhere in this league blowing assets like you have in that proposal. It is far too big of an overpay and would really hurt this team long term especially if Sieder doesn't turn out to be the answer for us at RD.

You give up that type if package you better be getting an established number 1 dmen.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

The only way you are trading Seider is to get a superstar like Eichel. This isn't Montreal trading for Drouin and giving Sergachev

 

[BatVader]

I’m sticking with my 1st+ Copp (agreement in place)+ Heinola for a Parayko (agreement in place) deal… I think it works for both teams and is a fair value trade… if it came down to it, and it was needed or no deal, I’d add a B level prospect or a 3rd or later pick.
Then, if we lose Apples to Seattle, trade a 3rd+ for Nolan Patrick to play on our RW only… not as a C.

In no way am I moving Perfetti… we need him on our top 6 wing.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Mort you don't get anywhere in this league blowing assets like you have in that proposal. It is far too big of an overpay and would really hurt this team long term especially if Sieder doesn't turn out to be the answer for us at RD.

You give up that type if package you better be getting an established number 1 dmen.

I admit it is risky. But we don't get an established #1 Dman with 7 years of team control for that package. At best we get one who has already peaked and has a lot less team control. Would LAK give us Doughty for that package?

Maybe they would. Just maybe. Then we have to pay him 11 mil for the next 6 years and his play drops off in 3. That would be an even bigger risk than getting Seider, who is on an ELC for 3 years.

Not to mention that Doughty has an NMC and would not waive to come here.

I don't see us getting anywhere - ever - without taking that kind of risk. No risk, no reward. Mushy middle for the foreseeable future. Then start over. I know you love Perfetti, but you have to give to get.