Blue Jays Discussion: Trade Deadline Edition - Live from New York: The Stro-Show

[Eyedea]

It was also a very quick "take-it-or-leave-it" offer and EE wanted some time to look at the market. When everything sorted out, it became obvious the Jays had misplayed the situation and, in my opinion, have been chasing their tails ever since.

And they wouldn't have ended up with EE and Bautista. If they signed EE, then they don't bring in Morales or bring back Bautista. EE and Bautista were both FAs at the same time.

What a shame to miss out on EE and end up drafting Pearson with his comp pick.

 

[Cor]

Who is Fisher replacing? McKinney?

Is the Fisher acquisition a sign they're giving up on Teoscar? I mean, Fisher isn't replacing Gurriel and Grichuk is on a long-term deal. So, is Teoscar out?

McKinney will lose playing time. But we are sitting at 22 on the roster, Thornton coming back today is 23, if Fisher comes up, that's 24, and we'll need to call up another rotation/pen arm while Borucki is out, so that's 25. If they want both a rotation and pen arm brought up, then McKinney will be sent down I'd imagine. (which might depend on how soon Giles will be back)

But yeah, our outfield will seemingly be Lourdes-Fisher-Grichuk while Teoscar will rotate in when needed and probably DH (along with Galvis)

 

[Nineteen67]

I’m interested in how they plan to acquire top end pitching to go along with the current crop of talent. Without trading one of the studs they’re very limited in what they can do.

They may have shot themselves in the foot by not trading after the 2016 failure.

 

[Discoverer]

I don't know who deserves the blame, as I agree with you that a good management team should be able to present a convincing case to achieve their vision.

Remember the "passing the hat" thing for Ervin Santana? Remember "You know it's going up"?

They always said the money would be there when they needed it, and for a few years that was demonstrably false... then all of a sudden it was there. Personally, I'm not convinced AA/Beeston ever talked Rogers into opening the wallet. I think Rogers had a multi-year budget in place and stuck with it the exact same way they did with JP Ricciardi, and the exact same way they're doing with Shapiro now: be cheap and cut payroll back for a few years while management builds up towards their vision, then increase payroll and give them a couple years to see if they can put things together. If it works, great! If it doesn't, replace management and restart.

Beeston could say "You know it's going up" because he knew it was going to... he just didn't add that it would take a couple years and there was little to nothing he could do about it because Rogers already had the payroll in place for the next few years.

 

[Longshot]

I’m interested in how they plan to acquire top end pitching to go along with the current crop of talent. Without trading one of the studs they’re very limited in what they can do.

They may have shot themselves in the foot by not trading after the 2016 failure.

There is no point in event thinking about that right now. Today is essentially the first day of the full rebuild. With the exception of everybody but Smoak and Galvis, they have officially traded all of their veterans and will now spend the rest of this year and I'm guess next year too seeing what they young guys in the system are capable of doing.

They don't have to think of front-of-the-rotation types of pitchers until they believe their window is starting to open (if it ever does).

 

[Discoverer]

I’m interested in how they plan to acquire top end pitching to go along with the current crop of talent. Without trading one of the studs they’re very limited in what they can do.

They may have shot themselves in the foot by not trading after the 2016 failure.

The current crop of high-upside pitching talent is pretty impressive itself: Pearson, Pardinho, SWR, Kloffenstein, Manoah.

I'm hoping they make one move for a good, established pitcher in the next year or so, but for the most part they need to see which of these guys turns into something and then fill in the gaps from there.

 

[justafan22]

What a shame to miss out on EE and end up drafting Pearson with his comp pick.

EE is finished lmao

 

[HockeyGuruPitka]

There are two aspects of the frustration with the Sanchez trade. One is the return. The Jays give up two roster players and a decent prospect to get a 4th outfielder who seems to be trending towards a burned off prospect?

The other, which is more important, is there was no urgency to make a deal. They had Sanchez for next year. They could have kept him. Kept working with him. And hoped he got better. That was the whole plan for this year. To rebuild the value of both Sanchez and Stroman and then move them for some younger pieces. They could have held on to Sanchez and hoped he gained value. There was no reason to sell low.

I do agree with you here, however the front office has obviously had internal urgency to change the culture in the club house going as far as buying out 38m of remaining money owed to Tulo. Whatever the cost they want a fresh start. Likely there were other potential better outcomes but none guaranteed. Should a better deal have come up for any of the moves made at the TDL they would have capitalized. Jays office seems to be targeting specific guys they like, rather then just acquiring what seems to be a larger quantity of guys.

At the end of the day the team hasnt won since the early 90's. i can sit here and criticize like everyone else, however team hasnt won. Lets see if they know what there doing. When this team of young talented players becomes outdated, i may be more inclined to have these conversations.

 

[FifthLine]

Who is Fisher replacing? McKinney?

Is the Fisher acquisition a sign they're giving up on Teoscar? I mean, Fisher isn't replacing Gurriel and Grichuk is on a long-term deal. So, is Teoscar out?

I'd imagine Teoscar and Fisher will likely platoon the rest of the season, seeing how they're a RHH and LHH. So likely will switch out depending on the matchup, or until one of them takes the job.

 

[Nineteen67]

There is no point in event thinking about that right now. Today is essentially the first day of the full rebuild. With the exception of everybody but Smoak and Galvis, they have officially traded all of their veterans and will now spend the rest of this year and I'm guess next year too seeing what they young guys in the system are capable of doing.

They don't have to think of front-of-the-rotation types of pitchers until they believe their window is starting to open (if it ever does).

That’s the question....will the window open?

 

[BlueForever75]

I'd imagine Teoscar and Fisher will likely platoon the rest of the season, seeing how they're a RHH and LHH. So likely will switch out depending on the matchup, or until one of them takes the job.

Bichette, Vladdy, Biggio, Hernandez, Grichuk, Gurriel, McKinney, and Fisher will play depending on the matchup. OF will be a rotation of 4 available starting spots OF and DH. Spot duty for Drury/Galvis everywhere, days off for Smoak. It will work out. Everyone will get sufficient playing time down the stretch.

My guess is your not taking Hernandez out of the lineup now that hes finally found his stroke. So they will find a place for him to play. Maybe you start using McKinney/Hernandez at 1B a little, see if you have something there! We all know Smoak wont be back next season.

 

[zeke]

You know, I haven't been able to subscribe to the idea that they won't or don't want to spend. The franchise has been willing to spend on star players through its history. Jack Morris, Dave Winfield, Paul Molitor, Dave Stewart, David Cone, AJ Burnett, Roger Clemens, the Marlins deal, getting Tulo and Price. There are lots of examples.

And we won't really know until the time comes (which isn't right now). But, I have to say, they are starting to make me wonder. Putting aside the return the Jays received, these kinds of rebuilding deals are always tough. There is no way to sugar coat trading MLB talent for prospects, but usually a GM will throw out a bone along the lines of: "We feel having a lot of solid minor league depth sets us up in the future to make deals to improve our major league team." Did he even suggest that yesterday?

the difference now is that we have an FO that is philosophically adamantly opposed not to spending, but to spending inefficiently - and free agent years for any player are ALWAYS inefficient spending.

there will be plenty of attempts at value contracts like Grichuk's. We'll spend plenty of money on those types of deals.

 

[zeke]

There is no point in event thinking about that right now. Today is essentially the first day of the full rebuild. With the exception of everybody but Smoak and Galvis, they have officially traded all of their veterans and will now spend the rest of this year and I'm guess next year too seeing what they young guys in the system are capable of doing.

They don't have to think of front-of-the-rotation types of pitchers until they believe their window is starting to open (if it ever does).

you're giving the FO a FOUR YEAR free pass?

 

[zeke]

So the Jays rank 22nd in attendance at 21.1k per game. Pretty impressive given their place in the standings, tbh.

And I notice that they rank right alongside the Indians in 23rd - the indians being in a playoff spot, no less.

It seems like our FO should now be back in their comfort zone.

 

[Longshot]

EE is finished lmao

Huh???

He's one of the league leaders in homeruns this year and has hit 30 or more every year since he left.

 

[BlueForever75]

the difference now is that we have an FO that is philosophically adamantly opposed not to spending, but to spending inefficiently - and free agent years for any player are ALWAYS inefficient spending.

there will be plenty of attempts at value contracts like Grichuk's. We'll spend plenty of money on those types of deals.

I don't see what is wrong with being fiscally responsible when spending on player contracts?

I don't think they have shown at all the inability to hold on premium talent. They believe in accumulating it and choosing their core carefully while eliminating unneeded assets to accumulate more. If you really want to look at it, look at what they did in Cleveland. That team has Shapiro and Atkins written all over it.

The Indians never gave Shapiro to budget to put together a winner, he clearly stated that. What's scary is that he and Atkins have a knack to assemble a young team but now have the means to go out and spend with the backing of Rogers, that has proven that they will step to the plate when they have to.

I see no proof that Jays management and ownership will not put more money into the team when they are ready to contend. They did it for AA, and they will do it for Shapiro and Atkins.

What they have done the past couple of years is normal. Eliminate garbage, and start the build.

 

[Longshot]

So the Jays rank 22nd in attendance at 21.1k per game. Pretty impressive given their place in the standings, tbh.

And I notice that they rank right alongside the Indians in 23rd - the indians being in a playoff spot, no less.

It seems like our FO should now be back in their comfort zone.

I went to my first game of the season last Tuesday during the Cleveland series. I was surprised by the attendance. I thought it would be a dead zone in there and it was a solid crowd.

 

[Longshot]

you're giving the FO a FOUR YEAR free pass?

I'm not sure I understand your question. Who said anything about free passes? And I have been as critical of the front office as anybody, I don't particularly care for them for a number of reasons.

And I'm willing to listen to an argument that in the off season the Jays should pursue front-line pitchers (I was in favour of extending Stroman and giving Sanchez more time to work it out), but I don't see why they would. They are now basically at ground zero of their rebuild and they have to give it time to grow.

Whether or not they should be given the time to let it grow is another debate all together.

 

[Cor]

One thing that is odd, is that, we traded 7 bodies (Stroman, Sanchez, Biagini, Hudson, Sogard, Phelps & Stevenson)

Usually, when you are trading major league talent for prospects, especially with guys like Marcus Stroman, Aaron Sanchez, & a guy like Biagini who has several years of control, you tend to get an influx of prospects.

The Jays managed to get 6 guys, with 2 PTBNL's, so 8 prospects. We gave up a prospect, so let's say 6 major league bodies, for 7 prospects.

We averaged 1 prospect per major league body, and one of them is a top of the rotation starter, signed for another season. That's fair, if you get that high quality, but other than SWR, it doesn't seem like any of the guys acquired have that high ceiling. Derek Fisher is seen by most as a potential fourth outfielder. Kay MIGHT be a fourth or fifth rotation arm. Johnston & Hatch are maybe middle relievers. Unless the Rays PTBNL are for some reason significant, and judging by the other trades, along with Sogard just being a utility IF, I highly doubt it, we've traded 7 major league bodies, including a top end of the rotation starter, for prospects that MAY become depth pieces, and 1 kid who has the potential to be a winning ticket.

Again, maybe Derek Fisher puts it together here, but at the end of the day, he's turning 26 in a couple weeks. Travis Snider for example was out of the league by the time he was 26/27, and that's a guy who played over 500 games by the time he was Fisher's age. And if Fisher turns it together, he's going to be nearly 30, or 30 itself, by the time this team is ready to go deep.

I guess my point is, I don't get how you look at these trades, even from a Jays management stand point, and look as giddy as Ross Atkins did yesterday.

 

[ER89]

To be honest I agree with him. What has he said that is wrong?

16 of the 24 players on the MLB roster are 26 years old or younger. All of our major future contributors are under the age of 24 (Vladdy, Bichette, Biggio, Jansen). They should only get better.

Their minor leagues are stacked with talent when it comes to position players : Groshans (3b), Martinez (SS), Moreno (C), Hiraldo (3B), Kirk (C), Smith (ss/3B), Jimenez (2b/ss), Conine (OF), Brown (OF), Robertson (OF), Young (OF), Morris (OF), Alford (OF), Adams (C), Warmoth (SS)

Their pitching prospects are getting pretty good as well: Pearson, Manoah, Kay, Pardinho, Zeuch, SWR, Klofesstein, Williams, Murphy, Perez, Diaz, Johnston, Murphy

They have Pannone, SRF and Thornton, along with Borucki which are all young when it comes to starters as well under the age of 25.

We all know the next off season and next season more prospects will be added via trades and draft. With such a young lineup it wont be long before they are back to a 150-170 million payroll as most of their players will still be young and controllable.

So what exactly has he said that is wrong? I don't get it!

If you have the ability to be better but you aren't that still is a failure. Yes our positional pieces are promising, yes we have some nice pitching prospects, but the moves made sucked, and we should have been even better off than we are now. And that isn't something that is debatable right now.

 

[Longshot]

Again, maybe Derek Fisher puts it together here, but at the end of the day, he's turning 26 in a couple weeks. Travis Snider for example was out of the league by the time he was 26/27, and that's a guy who played over 500 games by the time he was Fisher's age. And if Fisher turns it together, he's going to be nearly 30, or 30 itself, by the time this team is ready to go deep.

I guess my point is, I don't get how you look at these trades, even from a Jays management stand point, and look as giddy as Ross Atkins did yesterday.

I don't understand the Fisher thing at all. If he was 23, okay or a 20-year-old who is a few years away and has some tools (like, say, Anthony Gose, not that he worked out, but he was an interesting prospect at the time), I can get on board with that. But he's almost 26 and the Jays basically have two of him already - McKinney and Teoscar and Teoscar may be something more.

 

[Eyedea]

the difference now is that we have an FO that is philosophically adamantly opposed not to spending, but to spending inefficiently - and free agent years for any player are ALWAYS inefficient spending.

there will be plenty of attempts at value contracts like Grichuk's. We'll spend plenty of money on those types of deals.

Was the previous management’s free agent spending philosophy different from this?

 

[phillipmike]

Baseball reference still has the 2020 arb estimates at 35.5M;

2019 Numbers:
Giles 6.3M
Shoemaker 3.5M
Travis 1.93M
Tepera 1.52M
Drury 1.3M
Maile 0.579M
Pompey 0.5623M

Even if im generous with these guy i cant get close to 35.5M

2020 Numbers:
Giles 11M
Shoemaker 4.5M
Travis 2M
Tepera 2M
Drury 3M
Maile 1.5M
Pompey 1M
Total: 25M

Travis isnt getting a raise but i gave him one (likely will be non tendered). Drury isnt making more than double, i doubt Maile is going to make triple and Pompey might not be here.

If Giles gets traded in the off-season then the Jays are likely looking at just Shoemaker, Tepera, Drury and Maile at around 10M.

Committed: 30.9M (Tulo, Grichuck, Galvis and Gurriel)
Options: 4.5M (add 4.5M if Galvis' option is picked up)
Pre-arb: 12M
Arb: 10M (Shoemaker, Tepera, Drury and Maile)
Giles: 11M
Total: 57.4M (w/o Giles) and 68.4M (with Giles)

100M payroll means we have 31M-42M to find 1-2 starters, some pen arms and one bat.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I don't understand the Fisher thing at all. If he was 23, okay or a 20-year-old who is a few years away and has some tools (like, say, Anthony Gose, not that he worked out, but he was an interesting prospect at the time), I can get on board with that. But he's almost 26 and the Jays basically have two of him already - McKinney and Teoscar and Teoscar may be something more.

it is puzzling why Atkins is so giddy about him

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I guess my point is, I don't get how you look at these trades, even from a Jays management stand point, and look as giddy as Ross Atkins did yesterday.

At the very least it gives whoever makes the decisions to fire Atkins for not being able to judge talent or make trades properly. They've come out saying they thought they did well and that they targeted these guys. If their targets flopped despite giving up pretty valuable assets, then they will be out on their *** before they know it.

Until then, I'll wait and see.