Blue Jays Discussion: Trade Deadline Edition - Live from New York: The Stro-Show

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Nineteen67

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They have one of the best pitching prospect pools in all of baseball.

Pearson
Manoah
SWR
Pardinho
Kloffenstein
Williams
Kay
Borucki
Reid-Folley
Murphy

Pitching won't be an issue long-term, especially with Shatkins draft history and success.

Also, they are stockpiling prospects. This is extremely important when the time comes and they can go out and try to sign Cole, Verlander, Syndergaard type arms.

Majority of the best pitchers in the league aren't with the team that drafted them.

Also, just to add. SRW is getting severely underrated. He's arguably the best 18 yr old pitching prospect in baseball right now. He is a lock for the top 100 next year, and could potentially have a Patino rise in the rankings.(doubtful, but possible)

If history is any indication they won’t be able to sign a number 1 starter. Who knows maybe there won’t be a requirement for starters in 2 or 3 years.

I’m well beyond caring about what they do anyway.
 

TheMadHatTrick

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This is interesting, not that i expect a lot of this to happen but this could be the new market inefficiency or a way to extract value - bet we see the Yankees pull off one of these deals;

So, What Can Teams Do In August?





Maybe this could be a time for a team to capitalize on this opportunity and the market. Kind of like an early/in season rule 5 draft.

If there is a playoff team out there ravaged by injuries and/or ineffective play and they need arms or position player depth to make the playoffs or play in the playoffs and they need a body but they have no one in the upper minors that can play or someone they trust in September or later, might be a opportunity to get better assets.

Cant trade off the 40 man roster but say the Jays offered up lower ceiling prospect who is ready now and not on the 40 man roster for a higher ceiling prospect further away from the majors (also not on the roster).

These playoff teams dont have much of a choice because there are slim pickings in terms of trade.

So if a AAA Jays prospect has a good month proving they are ready and a playoff team is desperate for help, maybe they can turn that prospect into potentially a higher ceiling prospect further away.

Position players wont be an easy sell as they would be fringe bats who are fast, pinch runners which we have a lot of. But its the pitchers that might get more interest to be pen arms.

Notable players not on the 4o man;
OF Dalton Pompey
OF Socrates Brito
OF/IF Alen Hanson
OF Roemon Fields
OF/IF Patrick Kivlehan

P TJ Zeuch
P Anthony Kay

P Kirby Sneed
P Jason Adam
P Thomas Hatch

Jays may not want to move many of those pitchers but if someone is desperate it is something to consider.

It would have to take a savvy and experienced front office like the Ray, Yankees, Dodgers or Astros to identify someone the like and pull a trade off like this to use someone like this over someone else in their org. Meaning it isnt likely to happen but something for non contenders to think about at the next deadline. Target upper minors prospects with results who are on the verge of being rule 5 eligible, if you arent getting offers you like on your players at the deadline. Maybe those type of players become trade chips in the August.
I can see us making prospect for prospect trades for older guys who are blocked or guys who will be Rule 5 eligible, in exchange for players not yet Rule 5 eligible. Would be a good chance for our pro scouting to earn their paycheck.

Some teams with roster crunches and guys due to be added to the 40-man roster.

The 40-Man Situations That Could Impact Trades

Yankees:
Albert Abreu
Domingo Acevedo
Chance Adams
Nick Nelson
Oswaldo Cabrera
Miguel Yajure
Luis Medina
Michael King
Freicer Perez

Rays:
Ryan Boldt
Resly Linares
Joel Peguero
Curtis Taylor

Dodgers:
Brock Stewart *(Who we just added for free)*
Yadier Alvarez
Yimi Garcia
Jordan Sheffield

Astros:
Derek Fisher *(Who we just traded for)*
Francis Martes
Reymin Guduan
Dean Deetz
Cristian Javier
Enoli Paredes
 

trellaine201

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I do think they will just buy pitchers down the road. If and when they become relevant. 1-2 years. Some of these guys he’s acquired over the past few years have to become something?
 

TheMadHatTrick

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Twins reportedly targeted Marcus Stroman before trade deadline but didn't hear back
Stroman was the first target and sources indicated the Twins were disappointed when Toronto didn’t give them a chance to match an offer they believed they could have outdone. The Blue Jays were rebuffed when they originally asked the Twins for either of their top prospects, Royce Lewis or Alex Kirilloff, and never called back before accepting a deal for two New York Mets pitching prospects.
 

stickty111

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I think they're hoping in terms of pitching through trades that if they acquire enough of them, one or more of them turn into a Kluber or Carrasco, where they just vastly outperform projections.

I'm not really worried about the pitching though. As the Cubs, Astros, and Red Sox showed, you can always acquire that later (Verlander, Cole, Greinke, Sale, Lester). I hope they focus on BPA in prospect acquisition (which is why it troubled me to hear they were narrowly focused on pitching in any Stroman trade). Like, you're telling me Kirilloff wouldn't look amazing with this core (not saying he was available, just an example)?

As far as Atkins performance, people keep bringing up the draft and international signings as if they somehow offset Atkins' seemingly weak negotiating ability. Your job as GM is more than just drafting well (and that's not even in your purview anyway, since that's the job of the scouting director). You have to do everything semi-well. I can't think of a team that was a contender who just got by on drafting well. Unless you're just so much better at it than the rest of the league, I don't know if that alone will cut it.

Moreover, where the GM should be judged most is in his trades and signings, since those are things he's directly responsible for. I have serious misgivings about Atkins trading acumen, based on a combination of the results, his comments, and his communication style and how he carries himself.

The Jays were smart enough to dump Rob Parker, whose drafts, with the exception of Bo, have been pretty garbage. I hope they'll move on from Atkins after his contract is up at the end of 2020, and put him in a position he's more adept in (he was previously in player development). Maybe elevate Cherrington to GM or let Shapiro be President and GM, or find someone from the outside. I just dont have much faith in this guy.
I don't disagree with you on any of this
 

Skolman

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These "Shatkins" people annoyed the heck out of me from day 1 but I've crossed over to their side. It's almost like he's sabotaging the franchise intentionally. His love for obscure, nearly failing prospects and horrible timing is unprecedented. We've had the arrogant know-it-all GM (Ricciardi) and the smooth talking fraud (Ash). This guy is the captain of the Titanic. /vent
I mean, it's not like he has given up a ton of value in these trades. I understand your point though, I wasn't a huge fan of the McKinney or Drury deals. The Yanks have been doing these deals forever. They showcase a very mediocre player in their stacked lineup, the player puts up decent numbers and then they deal him. I'm just happy they didn't trade with Cashman again and acquire Frazier for Stro.

I'm not sure how familiar a lot of you are with how Shatkins built the Indians, but they are following a very similiar plan here. They stockpile players and pray that one of them turns out.

Can you imagine if Fisher turns into a 20/20 guy who bats let's say .260? The deal won't look bad at all then, we'll see how this plays out.
 

Kiwi

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stickty111

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I'd take that with a pinch of salt

I'm not baseball genius but that does have the wiff of a team making excuses after the played hard ball on a Stroman return and got burned when the Jays went in another direction

If they were that keen they would have got him, not buggered around to the point the Jays gave up on them
Maybe i'm reading it wrong, but if the Jays pushed more for those prospects, the Twins would have given it to them. It's not Atkins was dealing with Brian Cashman or something.
 

TheMadHatTrick

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I'm not sure how familiar a lot of you are with how Shatkins built the Indians, but they are following a very similiar plan here. They stockpile players and pray that one of them turns out.

Can you imagine if Fisher turns into a 20/20 guy who bats let's say .260? The deal won't look bad at all then, we'll see how this plays out.
I'm seeing that as well. The one difference is AL East vs AL Central. The East is much tougher to be competitive in.
 
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Kiwi

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Maybe i'm reading it wrong, but if the Jays pushed more for those prospects, the Twins would have given it to them. It's not Atkins was dealing with Brian Cashman or something.

That's what the Jays asked for and they refused

It's easy to say after the fact they would have done it but it's obvious at the time the Minn front office wasn't willing to budge and them complaining after the fact is pretty suspicious to me

That does have the wiff of something to placate the fan base
 

TheMadHatTrick

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I'd take that with a pinch of salt

I'm not baseball genius but that does have the wiff of a team making excuses after the played hard ball on a Stroman return and got burned when the Jays went in another direction
That cuts both ways though. Ross Atkins has every reason to spin as much as they do to save face. And why would they single out the Jays in particular? That doesn't seem like a smart strategy for future communication. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, but given how quickly and suddenly the trade went down (3 days before the deadline), it's at least plausible Atkins jumped the gun, a la Kramer from Seinfeld.
If they were that keen they would have got him, not buggered around to the point the Jays gave up on them
Because why would you negotiate against yourself without knowing what other teams are offering? Seems like something Atkins would be wise to take note of. I mean, yeah I'm sure he really wanted Fisher, but was anyone else going to offer that much for him? He's 25, blocked, and Rule 5 eligible this November.
 
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deletethis

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Us Jays' fans: "At least for these painful rebuild seasons, we'll be selling off our better aging talent for a lot of quality prospects who will be making major contributions in a few seasons."

Ross Atkins: "Hold my beer."
 

Skolman

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Maybe i'm reading it wrong, but if the Jays pushed more for those prospects, the Twins would have given it to them. It's not Atkins was dealing with Brian Cashman or something.
Minny is just trying to save face, they are recieving heat from their fanbase for having a quiet deadline.

But let's say they think they would have "beat" the offer from the Mets. Who are they to decide what beats the Mets offer? Maybe they think Larnoch is better than the package the Jays recieved, we just don't know.

They are obviously higher on their prospects probably than most teams are the league.

I don't buy this BS they are spewing. The only way I'm mad about this is if they would have offered Graterol or Balazovic, they obviously weren't trading Lewis or Kiriloff.
 

Kiwi

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That cuts both ways though. Ross Atkins has every reason to spin as much as they do to save face. And why would they single out the Jays in particular? That doesn't seem like a smart strategy for future communication. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, but given how quickly and suddenly the trade went down (3 days before the deadline), it's at least plausible Atkins jumped the gun, a la Kramer from Seinfeld.

Because why would you negotiate against yourself without knowing what other teams are offering? Seems like something Atkins would be wise to take note of.

If they didn't give teams notice they were moving Stroman asap and to get there best offer on the table you can certainly give the Jays front office plenty of crap for the way they handled there asset but I'm certainly not letting Minnesota off the hook on that one either

If you want Stroman you don't lowball and potentially get cut out of the deal, which it does sound like they did

That also doesn't take into account how the Jays feel about what they got back either, if they really liked those guys and Minnesota isn't even close and you think that Mets deal may not be there in a day or two what can they do but take that offer if Stroman has to go?
 

Skolman

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That cuts both ways though. Ross Atkins has every reason to spin as much as they do to save face. And why would they single out the Jays in particular? That doesn't seem like a smart strategy for future communication. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, but given how quickly and suddenly the trade went down (3 days before the deadline), it's at least plausible Atkins jumped the gun, a la Kramer from Seinfeld.

Because why would you negotiate against yourself without knowing what other teams are offering? Seems like something Atkins would be wise to take note of. I mean, yeah I'm sure he really wanted Fisher, but was anyone else going to offer that much for him? He's 25, blocked, and Rule 5 eligible this November.
So you seriously think that Atkins didn't spend weeks talking to the Twins about Stroman? You really think he got a call from the Mets and was like "hey, ya let's make a deal", without checking back to see if other teams would offer something better? That's 100% not how it works.

I get it you're trying to find a reason to hate Atkins even more, but at least find legitimate reasons.

As for Fisher. Was anyone else going to offer a better player with more upside for the worst SP in baseball this season, who has a reaquring injury, who has stated he doesn't want to move to the BP, and who's agent is Scott Boras?
 

TheMadHatTrick

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If they didn't give teams notice they were moving Stroman asap and to get there best offer on the table you can certainly give the Jays front office plenty of crap for the way they handled there asset but I'm certainly not letting Minnesota off the hook on that one either

If you want Stroman you don't lowball and potentially get cut out of the deal, which it does sound like they did

That also doesn't take into account how the Jays feel about what they got back either, if they really liked those guys and Minnesota isn't even close and you think that Mets deal may not be there in a day or two what can they do but take that offer if Stroman has to go?
I suspect (my middle ground hypothetical) what happened is the Twins were really low-balling it (reports are the Jays were scouting their AAA team where none of their good prospects are), but that part of this was because of the Jays huge ask (they asked the Yankees for Torres and Garcia) and they had every intention of meeting in the middle (say Duran and Balazovic) but their initial offer was so low that Atkins was either like eff them or thought what's the point of going back to them.
 

Kiwi

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I suspect (my middle ground hypothetical) what happened is the Twins were really low-balling it (reports are the Jays were scouting their AAA team where none of their good prospects are), but that part of this was because of the Jays huge ask (they asked the Yankees for Torres and Garcia) and they had every intention of meeting in the middle (say Duran and Balazovic) but their initial offer was so low that Atkins was either like eff them or thought what's the point of going back to them.

That certainly isn't beyond the realms of possibility, I think the Jays are really high on that young kid in the Mets deal though so that may cloud matters when we start talking value on return

If they see front of the rotation quality there even though it's a long way away (if he ever makes it) there is the possibility the Twins just wouldn't have been willing to pony up that value anyway

I'm not a huge fan of the Jays front office even though I'm just a casual supporter but this does smack of sour grapes and Twins management trying to calm there support base some

It's easy to say your willing to pay the price after the fact when you don't actually have to pay the price
 

TheMadHatTrick

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So you seriously think that Atkins didn't spend weeks talking to the Twins about Stroman? You really think he got a call from the Mets and was like "hey, ya let's make a deal", without checking back to see if other teams would offer something better? That's 100% not how it works.

I get it you're trying to find a reason to hate Atkins even more, but at least find legitimate reasons.
I get that you're trying to find reasons to defend Atkins honor, but the only reason to believe that is it would have been stupid of them not to have done that (as I said). We don't know what really happened, but I'm not just going to believe Atkins who hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt yet, anymore than I'm going to just believe the Twins. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. And the fact that Atkins made the trade so suddenly, 3 days before the deadline caught everyone off guard, so it wouldn't surprise me if the Twins were caught off guard as well.
As for Fisher. Was anyone else going to offer a better player with more upside for the worst SP in baseball this season, who has a reaquring injury, who has stated he doesn't want to move to the BP, and who's agent is Scott Boras?
Was it just Sanchez we traded or were there other players involved? Even if Sanchez had very little value, he was at least worth Fisher (I mean we got Teoscar for 3 months of Liriano and they were both ranked the Astros 7th and 8th best prospects respectively in 2017). Sanchez isn't so without value that we had to throw other pieces on top of him, for a guy that no one else was going to pay that much for, and who the Astros had no room for on their roster and assuredly would have been looking to deal prior to the Rule 5 draft.
 
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TheMadHatTrick

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That certainly isn't beyond the realms of possibility, I think the Jays are really high on that young kid in the Mets deal though so that may cloud matters when we start talking value on return.

If they see front of the rotation quality there even though it's a long way away (if he ever makes it) there is the possibility the Twins just wouldn't have been willing to pony up that value anyway
Exactly. Got no problem with the player. I'm a big fan of SWR. He's got the size and athleticism to be a Chris Archer type of starter imo, and his changeup is slept on, I thought it was his best pitch at the UA game.
I'm not a huge fan of the Jays front office even though I'm just a casual supporter but this does smack of sour grapes and Twins management trying to calm there support base some

It's easy to say your willing to pay the price after the fact when you don't actually have to pay the price
It could be. We'll never know unless someone really spills the tea. I'm just trying to inductively piece together what I know, and my experience with our front office obviously informs how I interpret things in a way it wouldn't for Minnesota, who I know nothing about. This can be both a good thing and a bad thing.
 
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Kiwi

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Exactly. Got no problem with the player. I'm a big fan of SWR. He's got the size and athleticism to be a Chris Archer type of starter imo, and his changeup is slept on, I thought it was his best pitch at the UA game.

It could be. We'll never know unless someone really spills the tea. I'm just trying to inductively piece together what I know, and my experience with our front office obviously informs how I interpret things in a way it wouldn't for Minnesota, who I know nothing about. This can be both a good thing and a bad thing.

Yeah, I haven't exactly been thrilled with the body of work either on the trade front but I'm willing to cut them some slack on this one because of SWR, betting on prospects is a mugs game but that kid is really tantalizing

The hard deadline did make this year's market weird though, I'm struggling to make sense of at least half the trades and who was buying and selling

I've never seen the hockey TDL even half that head scratching
 

TheMadHatTrick

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People are pretty happy with what Biggio brings so far and I think Fisher is in that genre of player. Homers, walks, stolen bases, not much average, and borderline defense. The question is who plays where between Teo, Gurriel, Fisher and McKinney? I prefer Fisher to Teo largely because of the walks and base-running, but neither are centerfielders and Gurriel is in left. Can Gurriel play right? He's got the arm for it.

 
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