Trade and Free Agent Discussion Thread - 2018/2019 Season v6

[paulhiggins]

Larsson is struggling.
https://www.tsn.ca/oilers-larsson-i-m-playing-so-bad-right-now-1.1244851
Perhaps he could be available cheap.

 

[PromisedLand]

We did the whole “truculence” thing with Burke and Wilson and where did we end up? Broken record.

We haven’t had leadership on and off the ice (ie. captains) since Sundin, Roberts, Domi, Joseph, etc. You want to talk about getting guys motivated, engaged and doing their job..,start with having guys in the room who hold you accountable on and off the ice. Coach alone can’t do that, that is why there are team captains. Generals (Shanahan) have Corporals (Dubas) who have lieutenants (Babcock) who have captains (Tavares, Rielly?). Chain of command of responsibility and leadership.

IMO there was a miss match between ideologies of GM and coach in Burke and Wilson. Wilson's coaching was based more on skill, speed, run and gun. Burke's ideology was based on hard nosed hockey players and the two different philosophies in terms of team building went head first crash into each other.

I think similar case exists (not as profound as burke/wilson) with dubas and babcock. Dubas is on record for saying that dumping the puck only to lose the possession is stupid; babcock on the other hand wants his players to dump the puck (with neutral zone clogged) and then get to the puck first and compete.

also if am not mistaken there was a story doing rounds that dubas wanted it written into his contract that he could fire babcock if he thinks babcock has to go... so this would be interesting

 

[PromisedLand]

Matthews cannot be counted on to put up 50 goals a season either (was being generous regarding that stat as well), nor did I say the numbers i proposed were numbers the players would consistently put up every single year.

you also fail to realize that scoring is up and will probably continue to trend up with the way the nhl is going. and if you still want to debate, the point is clearly obvious that matthews can fetch players who are more well rounded and will most likely put up more total points, especially over the course of the year. when goal scorers don't have great goal years, they aren't nearly as beneficial. only ovechkin has managed to be that impactful as simply a goal scorer and even that was debated until the last years of his career when his team was good enough around him to win a cup and i still think its debateable considering whether hes the one driving the ship too. the cup is usually awarded to one of the deepest on paper in regards to goals/pts, however you may get them. and i think people assume matthews is there goal scoring wise, yet not having proved anything.

and yes i think matthews could fetch one of these players who will be in a group of 5-10 players who will put up 70 assists in a single season. i say 5-10 because i think there will be more than previous years

its already shown and mentioned here that he is streaky, so over a course of 82 games, its very likely that his gpg/ppg could likely decrease and not increase

I'd trade you to another fanbase before I trade Matthews out of this team

 

[SeaOfBlue]

The Leafs are struggling really bad. This to me has a lot to do with the style of game Babcock is asking them to play. There is no reason this team with the abundance of skill they have are struggling to score as they are. Averaging 2 goals the past 10 games is pretty sad and to me that is all on Babcock.

We are a team that does have its struggles on the D side of things. But to overly compensate our D at the cost of our strength is causing this team to struggle.

Dubas knowing this, has to quickly make changes for the team so it can play as it should. Strengthen the D so the forwards can play as they should. Or this season will become a wasted season very quickly.

I would blame Babcock, but our forwards are the sole problem for the struggles. It has nothing to do with the overcompensating for defense.

The forwards are not putting the work in and are not converting the few chances they do make for themselves. They are not doing their part of the breakout, and on top of Babcock's already sketchy breakout system, which has been inconsistent at best since he's been here, it is not a recipe for moving the puck up.

 

[Lupuls Grit]

He's used to California and his family has lived there most of their lives. It shouldn't phase him too much. They all have friends there and the Calfornian teams are usually competitive.

I like the idea of these deadline deals for a dman.

2nd in 2019 and a 3rd in 2020 for Radko Gudas

Nikita Zaitsev + a 2019 1st + a 2020 4th + Calle Rosen for Christopher Tanev

As a Canucks fan, I have advocated trading Tanev for some time. The team still needs a couple of pieces to contend and, while currently a very productive member of the D core, I'm not sure how many more years Tanev can sustain his high level of play. That said, with the Canucks currently in a playoff spot (barely), there is no way in hell Canucks ownership sells off a prime asset (in fact, I fear they may be buyers!) unless the team takes a significant tumble down the standings which is unlikely now that the team is healthy again. If that were to happen, I like the assets you have proposed but Zaitsev is a complete non-starter (though Benning may disagree!). The Leafs are going to have to find a way to dump that contract but I want no part of it!

 

[Lupuls Grit]

Wait a second.

The guy scored 40 goals in his rookie season.
He was a point/game his second season
Up near the top of the league in points/game this season and has 42 points in 34 games even with a big drought
He's only 21 damn years old, still on his ELC!
He plays C, is a franchise changing talent ... and we wanna trade him?
He could go down as the best leaf of all time!
What is going on around here?

And yet Leaf fans go nuts when anyone dares suggest that another team may be inclined to give him an offer sheet. I don't think it will get that far because I think Dubas is smart enough to pay a premium to get this done in advance of free agency but it's not going to be cheap.

 

[BlueForever75]

I would blame Babcock, but our forwards are the sole problem for the struggles. It has nothing to do with the overcompensating for defense.

The forwards are not putting the work in and are not converting the few chances they do make for themselves. They are not doing their part of the breakout, and on top of Babcock's already sketchy breakout system, which has been inconsistent at best since he's been here, it is not a recipe for moving the puck up.

So again, its Babcock to blame. All in one response you went from the forwards not converting their chances to Babcock's breakout system being horrible. Its hard to convert on chances when they are far in between due to his sketchy breakout system and overall system really.

No way that Matthews or Kadri go this long in a slump under another coach laying off the reigns a little and letting them play to their skills.

Babcock is to blame. Its evident, and hes starting to lose hit team.

 

[Mad hatter]

Are we still trading our 1st round pick?

It better be top 10 protected if we do

 

[Dreakmur]

Larsson is struggling.
https://www.tsn.ca/oilers-larsson-i-m-playing-so-bad-right-now-1.1244851
Perhaps he could be available cheap.

Zaitsev and Brown for Larsson and Spooner.... do it !

 

[ChazzMichaelMichaels]

And yet Leaf fans go nuts when anyone dares suggest that another team may be inclined to give him an offer sheet. I don't think it will get that far because I think Dubas is smart enough to pay a premium to get this done in advance of free agency but it's not going to be cheap.

Sorry I'm a tad confused as to what you're trying to get at here. Are you saying Leaf fans are silly to suggest that he won't be offer sheeted? Are you saying his contract is gonna be big? I don't think leaf fans don't think it's a good idea for other teams, I just think they don't think it'll happen and it is a little frustrating when there are so many big ticket RFAs on other teams that could just easily be offer sheeted as well. Why is only Toronto seemingly mentioned to be at risk when teams such as Winnipeg have to pay players such as Laine? If what you're saying is simply Matthews is gonna be expensive to re-sign, well yes, of course he is gonna be expensive. Again, sorry if I'm not understanding what you're trying to say, I may be missing the point.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

So again, its Babcock to blame. All in one response you went from the forwards not converting their chances to Babcock's breakout system being horrible. Its hard to convert on chances when they are far in between due to his sketchy breakout system and overall system really.

No way that Matthews or Kadri go this long in a slump under another coach laying off the reigns a little and letting them play to their skills.

Babcock is to blame. Its evident, and hes starting to lose hit team.

It's really both. The breakout is not generating enough chances, and they are struggling to convert on the chances they are getting. The first is on the coach, and the second is on the players for the most part. Part of that is still system, like the PP for example, but that is also on the players. Matthews has been missing shots he usually converts. Same with Kadri. Most guys are not thinking fast enough.

Babcock would still need to tighten up his system even if they were converting, but eventually these guys need to be able to convert what they have been given as well. That PP performance, regardless of the system, is on the players as well. Same with many of the other offensive problems. The main thing is that it has nothing to do with what the defense is doing, because it is not like these guys are all back defending in favour of generating offense. All of our wingers are blowing the zone early, even Marner. Sometimes we even have two wingers blowing the zone trying to sneak behind a defenseman and receive a pass in a really tight area. For a team that is skilled as ours, we should not need to cheat as much as we do to generate scoring opportunities.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Unless you're getting someone with good term or an extension agreed upon to prior, I don't think trading top 60 picks or our better prospects makes sense right now.

I had tweeted earlier about this but I guess it works now as well;

If Dubas can not add to the defense and we continue to look mediocre, just trade Gardiner. Use the assets from him in the off-season to add a defenseman.

My reasoning is simply we're not winning a cup with the current group of defenseman, it needs to be improved.

I know you don't usually trade off pieces if you're going into the playoffs but I think being realistic about who we are and where we're at is just as important.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Unless you're getting someone with good term or an extension agreed upon to prior, I don't think trading top 60 picks or our better prospects makes sense right now.

I had tweeted earlier about this but I guess it works now as well;

If Dubas can not add to the defense and we continue to look mediocre, just trade Gardiner. Use the assets from him in the off-season to add a defenseman.

My reasoning is simply we're not winning a cup with the current group of defenseman, it needs to be improved.

I know you don't usually trade off pieces if you're going into the playoffs but I think being realistic about who we are and where we're at is just as important.

St. Louis did it with Shattenkirk when they were in the playoff hunt. Ended up making the Conference SF anyways, losing to Nashville who made it to the Finals (and lost).

STL used the first round pick they received and a conditional 2018 1st to get Brayden Schenn and dump Lehtera. Schenn went on to have a 70 point year in his first with STL. Not doing as hot this year, but neither is STL on the whole.

Honestly, there is no reason they can't and still get help now. I wouldn't advocate for acquiring rentals, but there is nothing stopping the Leafs from trading a rental and then using assets to get longer term pieces to help now. Although Hainsey, Marincin and Lindholm probably do not net much in a trade, and you might as well just keep them for a playoff run. Those are the only other rentals the Leafs have in the NHL.

 

[Lupuls Grit]

Sorry I'm a tad confused as to what you're trying to get at here. Are you saying Leaf fans are silly to suggest that he won't be offer sheeted? Are you saying his contract is gonna be big? I don't think leaf fans don't think it's a good idea for other teams, I just think they don't think it'll happen and it is a little frustrating when there are so many big ticket RFAs on other teams that could just easily be offer sheeted as well. Why is only Toronto seemingly mentioned to be at risk when teams such as Winnipeg have to pay players such as Laine? If what you're saying is simply Matthews is gonna be expensive to re-sign, well yes, of course he is gonna be expensive. Again, sorry if I'm not understanding what you're trying to say, I may be missing the point.

There are some amazing young goal scorers in the NHL (Boeser, Rantanen, Laine, Marner, Point, Connor) who are impending RFAs. It is possible one or more may receive an offer sheet. Matthews is different. He is not only a centre, but an elite centre with incredible size and skill. He is only 21. He is not a complimentary player. Unless injuries get in the way, he will be a franchise cornerstone (notwithstanding his current slump). Other teams (not just Phoenix!) realize that as well - ask Montreal how hard it is to find a number one centre, let alone a franchise player! Many teams will have significant cap space for next season or can make space. For that reason, Matthews would be an incredibly tempting target for an offer sheet close to max salary. All it takes is one team. Yet, many Leaf posters claim that it simply can't happen. Noone makes such offers to RFAs, etc. I don't think it will get that far because Dubas knows his value. He knows he will be a franchise cornerstone, along with Marner and Rielly. I fully expect he will pay at least McDavid money to make sure this gets done in advance. That would be much cheaper than matching an offer sheet! Too many Leaf posters seem to think this can be done for a much lower cap hit. I just don't see it.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

Unless you're getting someone with good term or an extension agreed upon to prior, I don't think trading top 60 picks or our better prospects makes sense right now.

I had tweeted earlier about this but I guess it works now as well;

If Dubas can not add to the defense and we continue to look mediocre, just trade Gardiner. Use the assets from him in the off-season to add a defenseman.

My reasoning is simply we're not winning a cup with the current group of defenseman, it needs to be improved.

I know you don't usually trade off pieces if you're going into the playoffs but I think being realistic about who we are and where we're at is just as important.

It makes sense in practice value-wise but I really can't see us subtracting from our core to face Boston or Tampa in the playoffs.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

It makes sense in practice value-wise but I really can't see us subtracting from our core to face Boston or Tampa in the playoffs.

Gardiner is not a part of the core. If he was, we are even less likely to beat either of those teams. He's not a core player, and is not valued like one either.

Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Rielly, Andersen is your core.

Kadri is kind of on his own island, although you can argue putting Kapanen and Dermott in there now as well. Unlikely to get moved without a significant overpayment coming the Leafs' way.

Zaitsev, Nylander, Gardiner is your next tier. Good players, but easily expendable in the right deal.

Then Hyman/Marleau/Johnsson. Same as above, but not as valuable or expensive on the cap.

etc.

So Gardiner is pretty much just squeaking in the top 10 of most important players on this team, if not outside of the top 10 altogether. I'd say he's pretty expendable.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Zaitsev and Brown for Larsson and Spooner.... do it !

No thank you. Brown is clearly better than Spooner, and Zaitsev-Larsson is a wash at best for the Leafs, if not a pure downgrade.

 

[WTFMAN99]

St. Louis did it with Shattenkirk when they were in the playoff hunt. Ended up making the Conference SF anyways, losing to Nashville who made it to the Finals (and lost).

STL used the first round pick they received and a conditional 2018 1st to get Brayden Schenn and dump Lehtera. Schenn went on to have a 70 point year in his first with STL. Not doing as hot this year, but neither is STL on the whole.

Honestly, there is no reason they can't and still get help now. I wouldn't advocate for acquiring rentals, but there is nothing stopping the Leafs from trading a rental and then using assets to get longer term pieces to help now. Although Hainsey, Marincin and Lindholm probably do not net much in a trade, and you might as well just keep them for a playoff run. Those are the only other rentals the Leafs have in the NHL.

It makes sense in practice value-wise but I really can't see us subtracting from our core to face Boston or Tampa in the playoffs.

I want to see how Dermott-Zaitsev continue to look. That was easily one of Zaitsev's better games I have seen in the last few months. If they can continue to look like that, it is easier.

Might also be able to finally get Rosen in on the 3rd pairing this way.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I want to see how Dermott-Zaitsev continue to look. That was easily one of Zaitsev's better games I have seen in the last few months. If they can continue to look like that, it is easier.

Might also be able to finally get Rosen in on the 3rd pairing this way.

I'd been advocating for this for months.

I think Zaitsev has been a lot better than people are willing to admit, but that Arizona game was the first game in a while when he actually looked comfortable. Also the first time in a while he was not playing with Gardiner most of the time (or with Hainsey on shutdown). I think even Dermott benefitted from playing with Zaitsev.

It's one game, but there will likely be a few more coming up. If they continue to play well, Dubas better be thinking long and hard about Gardiner's future with this team... And I am talking post-February 26th, not July 1st.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I'd been advocating for this for months.

I think Zaitsev has been a lot better than people are willing to admit, but that Arizona game was the first game in a while when he actually looked comfortable. Also the first time in a while he was not playing with Gardiner most of the time (or with Hainsey on shutdown). I think even Dermott benefitted from playing with Zaitsev.

It's one game, but there will likely be a few more coming up. If they continue to play well, Dubas better be thinking long and hard about Gardiner's future with this team... And I am talking post-February 26th, not July 1st.

I think with our cap situation he was always leaving. I would be surprised if he had the stones to move on from Gardiner prior to the deadline. If he adds a RHD to the group that is top 4, then by all means keep Gardiner, especially if we can perform well night in and night out.

 

[Dreakmur]

No thank you. Brown is clearly better than Spooner, and Zaitsev-Larsson is a wash at best for the Leafs, if not a pure downgrade.

Larsson is a decent #2/3 defenseman. He is definitely better than Zaitsev. His contract is also better.

Brown is better than Spooner, but we had to take salary back to make it work. The downgrade on the 4th line is well worth the upgrade to our top-4 on the blue line.

 

[Menzinger]

Safe money bet is that Gardiner walks July 1st, I don’t think this has anything to do with the recent play either, I think hes just going to price himself out of the Leafs cap Structure moving forward. Unless of course he’s willing to take a noticeable discount to stay with the team, maybe the Leafs give him extra term to compensate.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Larsson is a decent #2/3 defenseman. He is definitely better than Zaitsev. His contract is also better.

Brown is better than Spooner, but we had to take salary back to make it work. The downgrade on the 4th line is well worth the upgrade to our top-4 on the blue line.

Larsson is not a decent #2/3 anymore than Zaitsev is. It pretty much comes down to whether you want a pure shutdown guy (Larsson) or a two-way guy (Zaitsev).

 

[dubplatepressure]

Safe money bet is that Gardiner walks July 1st, I don’t think this has anything to do with the recent play either, I think hes just going to price himself out of the Leafs cap Structure moving forward. Unless of course he’s willing to take a noticeable discount to stay with the team, maybe the Leafs give him extra term to compensate.

Personally, I hope he walks. I think we have better quality in Sandin and Liljegren, and Rosen is a wild card. The more games we lose in Jan & Feb the more I hope we deal him at the TDL and see what Rosen's got this year.

 

[showtime8]

Personally, I hope he walks. I think we have better quality in Sandin and Liljegren, and Rosen is a wild card. The more games we lose in Jan & Feb the more I hope we deal him at the TDL and see what Rosen's got this year.

Trouble with that situation is then you're going into the stretch run with an unproven defense. That might have been okay in the previous 2 years, but I don't think that they gamble on it this year.

They've got to make some sort of impact in the playoffs & I don't think making that switch from Gardiner to Rosen is going to be good enough for them. I have no problem with them moving on from Gardiner, but the return has to be equivalent.