Trade and Free Agent Discussion Thread - 2018/2019 Season v3

[SeaOfBlue]

You're not trading the right guy if you're looking at fixing the defense.

I disagree. Rielly is not a problem. Hainsey, Dermott, Zaitsev and Ozhiganov can all be traded for good returns, but you would use that return (and possibly more) looking for someone just like them. Gardiner can be traded for a lot, and you can replace him with someone who is much better defensively. Considering Gardiner does not figure into the picture past this year as well, that makes the most sense for the Leafs.

 

[BertCorbeau]

I'd like to mention and take credit that I've been on the Pietrangelo hype train much before Kyper mentioned him on Saturday.

Me too

 

[SprDaVE]

I disagree. Rielly is not a problem. Hainsey, Dermott, Zaitsev and Ozhiganov can all be traded for good returns, but you would use that return (and possibly more) looking for someone just like them. Gardiner can be traded for a lot, and you can replace him with someone who is much better defensively. Considering Gardiner does not figure into the picture past this year as well, that makes the most sense for the Leafs.

Gardiner is the only one that isn't terrible at moving the puck outside of Rielly and somewhat Dermott.

If you want to bolster the defensive depth, you don't do it by removing Gardiner. It's really simple.

Our right side is absolutely awful and it starts there.

 

[43Kadri43]

I disagree. Rielly is not a problem. Hainsey, Dermott, Zaitsev and Ozhiganov can all be traded for good returns, but you would use that return (and possibly more) looking for someone just like them. Gardiner can be traded for a lot, and you can replace him with someone who is much better defensively. Considering Gardiner does not figure into the picture past this year as well, that makes the most sense for the Leafs.

Why would we look for someone just like Hainsey or Zaitsev? Or Ozhi for that matter (he's played reasonably well in his role, but he's a bottom-pairing defenseman)? They're just not very good. We'd be looking to upgrade on them (especially Zaitsev and Hainsey).

 

[pspot]

Think piet or parayako would be great but don't see it happening

Same with doughty

If they do anything it will be a tanev or Myers type and bridge to lil becoming and nhl dman .....imo

 

[dubplatepressure]

But Jake is pretty much 1 1st and 2 2nds. Will try to hold on to Liljegren. So maybe throw in Bracco, Brown and another 1st.

Shattenkirk didn't command a 1st and 2 2nds - even he got just a 1st, a former 2nd who at the time was somewhere around where Carl Grundstrom is now (same stats @ same age roughly in AHL), and a perennial AHLer in Malone, and Washington also got back a 23 year old AHL goalie who'd posted respectable AHL numbers.

I'd say Gardiner now (28) and Shattenkirk then (28) at the time of that trade make an awfully similar comparison. Shattenkirk had posted 42 pts in 61 games before he got traded.

You aren't getting 3 x top-60 picks for Jake Gardiner. You probably aren't even getting 2 in this day and age.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Why would we look for someone just like Hainsey or Zaitsev? Or Ozhi for that matter (he's played reasonably well in his role, but he's a bottom-pairing defenseman)? They're just not very good. We'd be looking to upgrade on them (especially Zaitsev and Hainsey).

Then you are paying a lot, because it is not going to be easy (or cheap) to upgrade either of them.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Gardiner is the only one that isn't terrible at moving the puck outside of Rielly and somewhat Dermott.

If you want to bolster the defensive depth, you don't do it by removing Gardiner. It's really simple.

Our right side is absolutely awful and it starts there.

Our right side is not absolutely awful, and Gardiner's puck moving ability is not exactly helping him in becoming an effective defender.

If you trade Gardiner, Dermott can become the secondary puck mover (because he is also a good puck mover), and you can use Gardiner to upgrade the right side. Maybe even get a defender who can move the puck and defend against it, or you can use Zaitsev and Ozhiganov to move the puck a little bit more, because they also know how to move the puck. Maybe part of the problem is that all of the puck moving has to go through Gardiner and Dermott on those lines, when their partners can also move the puck themselves... Hainsey is not known for being a puck mover, and Rielly is easily the best one we've got, so that dynamic makes a lot more sense.

Also, how are the Leafs going to figure this out next year when Gardiner is gone? They'll need to figure out how to replace his puck moving ability sooner or later, because there is no way the Leafs are going to pay Gardiner's inflated price tag when they have other guys coming up, and far more important players to pay.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Shattenkirk didn't command a 1st and 2 2nds - even he got just a 1st, a former 2nd who at the time was somewhere around where Carl Grundstrom is now (same stats @ same age roughly in AHL), and a perennial AHLer in Malone, and Washington also got back a 23 year old AHL goalie who'd posted respectable AHL numbers.

I'd say Gardiner now (28) and Shattenkirk then (28) at the time of that trade make an awfully similar comparison. Shattenkirk had posted 42 pts in 61 games before he got traded.

You aren't getting 3 x top-60 picks for Jake Gardiner. You probably aren't even getting 2 in this day and age.

Pretty much the deal was Shattenkirk for an NHL ready B prospect, a 1st and a couple of conditionals. Like if Washington actually did well, they would have had to pay a 2nd round pick as well. That is what the price would be on Gardiner. I guess you could ask for a 2nd instead of the prospect, and it would still be fair, and if the conditional converted that would be another 2nd, but they would not get a 1st and 2 2nd's guaranteed.

 

[SprDaVE]

Our right side is not absolutely awful, and Gardiner's puck moving ability is not exactly helping him in becoming an effective defender.

If you trade Gardiner, Dermott can become the secondary puck mover (because he is also a good puck mover), and you can use Gardiner to upgrade the right side. Maybe even get a defender who can move the puck and defend against it, or you can use Zaitsev and Ozhiganov to move the puck a little bit more, because they also know how to move the puck. Maybe part of the problem is that all of the puck moving has to go through Gardiner and Dermott on those lines, when their partners can also move the puck themselves... Hainsey is not known for being a puck mover, and Rielly is easily the best one we've got, so that dynamic makes a lot more sense.

Also, how are the Leafs going to figure this out next year when Gardiner is gone? They'll need to figure out how to replace his puck moving ability sooner or later, because there is no way the Leafs are going to pay Gardiner's inflated price tag when they have other guys coming up, and far more important players to pay.

It is absolutely awful and the one thing holding this team back 100%. Removing Gardiner will make this a whole lot worst and going into next season if the Leafs don't address his probable departure it won't get any better.

 

[Menzinger]

They’re not going to trade Gardiner for futures at this point.

I think they could have made a decent argument to trade JVR, but this season the team is a legit contender. The optics would be pretty bad for Dubas if they sold off Gardiner to a ompetitor at the deadline and then lost before the cup finals.

 

[Gabriel426]

The Leafs D really need someone who plays a heavier game and kills PK. He could be a bottom pairing Dman just as long as he is not a liability.
I am in favour of trading Jake since he most likely won’t resign. His replacement doesn’t need to be a scoring Dman like Jake rather just someone who is solid in their own zone and keep the game simple is good enough.

Ofcourse Pietra would be ideal. It would be something if Dubas can get Pietra and Jay from the Blues for Zai, Jake, Brown and a few draft picks.

 

[dubplatepressure]

Pretty much the deal was Shattenkirk for an NHL ready B prospect, a 1st and a couple of conditionals. Like if Washington actually did well, they would have had to pay a 2nd round pick as well. That is what the price would be on Gardiner. I guess you could ask for a 2nd instead of the prospect, and it would still be fair, and if the conditional converted that would be another 2nd, but they would not get a 1st and 2 2nd's guaranteed.

I'd probably argue Shattenkirk also had more value at the time than Gardiner does now.

 

[nuck]

They’re not going to trade Gardiner for futures at this point.

I think they could have made a decent argument to trade JVR, but this season the team is a legit contender. The optics would be pretty bad for Dubas if they sold off Gardiner to a ompetitor at the deadline and then lost before the cup finals.

If they were to deal Gards it should be now, not at the deadline but only if they are adding a RD upgrade who is more than just a one playoff rental. They can't afford him but if they use what they get for him to add at RD that improves the team. If there is not sufficient value to be had then I guess he is an own rental. We can't assume any upgrade is possible if only spare parts and low picks are offered. You usually get what you pay for, unless you roll the dice on someone else's inconsistent asset which fails most of the time. AJ or Kap or Sandin or Lily then so an asset that is of lesser value but might otherwise be with the club for a number of years.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I'd probably argue Shattenkirk also had more value at the time than Gardiner does now.

As an OFD maybe, but Gardiner is capable of doing more defensively. Gardiner can at least be passable without heavy sheltering. Shattenkirk is probably healthy scratch level without it.

I think teams would pay the same amount for Gardiner as Washington did for Shattenkirk.

 

[SprDaVE]

The Leafs D really need someone who plays a heavier game and kills PK. He could be a bottom pairing Dman just as long as he is not a liability.
I am in favour of trading Jake since he most likely won’t resign. His replacement doesn’t need to be a scoring Dman like Jake rather just someone who is solid in their own zone and keep the game simple is good enough.

Ofcourse Pietra would be ideal. It would be something if Dubas can get Pietra and Jay from the Blues for Zai, Jake, Brown and a few draft picks.

It really doesn't. Our bottom pairing is more than adequate. The problem is that Hainsey is just a tire fire with the puck and Zaitsev isn't far behind. When 2 of your top 4 defenseman struggle mightly at moving the puck or making plays, it kills what your team is about.

When you say Pietrangelo is ideal, it's because he's one of the best puck moving defenseman in the game and he's really good defensively as he pushes the puck up the ice among the best out there. It isn't because he's physical and all that stuff.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

It is absolutely awful and the one thing holding this team back 100%. Removing Gardiner will make this a whole lot worst and going into next season if the Leafs don't address his probable departure it won't get any better.

You do not think Gardiner playing 22 minutes a night is holding this team back? Ideally the Leafs get someone better than Hainsey beside Rielly. However we can not just ignore having someone as enigmatic and inconsistent as Gardiner on our 2nd pairing either. Especially not in the playoffs when the pressure is that much higher, the game is that much more physical (which he can hardly handle in the first place), and he is more likely to cause the types of mistakes that kill us.

If we remove Gardiner, we can try to replace him with Dermott. That is likely going to happen starting next year, but if you are proactive and do it this year, it could be our best shot at truly fixing the top 4 for the playoffs. At worst you downgraded the 2LD spot for one playoff run but have the assets to upgrade the 1RD and still have Hainsey for the 3LD and the additional flexibility of maybe trying out Rosen in the 3LD spot since Hainsey can play the 3RD spot instead of Ozhiganov as well.

However if you have better ideas, then I would like to hear them. However all of the other things I have seen have involved moving multiple high value futures plus one of our top 4 defenseman to get someone like Pietrangelo for a year and a half, even though our defense would still need more work beyond him, afterwards of which he will just price himself out of our defense... And then we are pretty much left with Rielly and hopefully Dermott with nobody else anywhere close to being capable of playing in the top 4 RD any time soon.

 

[SprDaVE]

You do not think Gardiner playing 22 minutes a night is holding this team back? Ideally the Leafs get someone better than Hainsey beside Rielly. However we can not just ignore having someone as enigmatic and inconsistent as Gardiner on our 2nd pairing either. Especially not in the playoffs when the pressure is that much higher, the game is that much more physical (which he can hardly handle in the first place), and he is more likely to cause the types of mistakes that kill us.

It isn't no. Holding this team back is playing Hainsey and Zaitsev in their current roles.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

It isn't no. Holding this team back is playing Hainsey and Zaitsev in their current roles.

Gardiner is the reason why Zaitsev has to play in that crappy role in the first place. Otherwise he could be in a role much more suited for his style of play, would actually be allowed to move the puck, and be able to take risks without having to worry about Gardiner covering for him. Maybe he could actually produce some offense, which he has shown he is more than capable of doing at the NHL level.

Gardiner is a 20 minute defenseman who should have a lot of offensive zone time to generate offense from the back end. That is when he looks his best. Unfortunately, that is also not the type of defenseman the Leafs need to be successful right now, since we have Rielly and even Dermott as capable offensive zone players.

 

[43Kadri43]

Then you are paying a lot, because it is not going to be easy (or cheap) to upgrade either of them.

How much would Gudas and/or Pysyk cost? They’re both upgrades

 

[43Kadri43]

Gardiner is the reason why Zaitsev has to play in that crappy role in the first place. Otherwise he could be in a role much more suited for his style of play, would actually be allowed to move the puck, and be able to take risks without having to worry about Gardiner covering for him. Maybe he could actually produce some offense, which he has shown he is more than capable of doing at the NHL level.

Gardiner is a 20 minute defenseman who should have a lot of offensive zone time to generate offense from the back end. That is when he looks his best. Unfortunately, that is also not the type of defenseman the Leafs need to be successful right now, since we have Rielly and even Dermott as capable offensive zone players.

... are you serious?

 

[gabeliscious]

How much would Gudas and/or Pysyk cost? They’re both upgrades

Imo we need to shoot higher. Neither are difference makers. I know it is super unlikely but bringing in someone like peitrangelo would make us pretty close to favorites for a cup imo. God know where we would find the money to extend him???

Hyman. Matthews. Nylander
Johnssom. Tavares. Marner
Marleau. Kadri. Kapanen
Ennis. Lindholm. Goat

Rielly. Peitrangelo
Dermott Zaitsev
hainsey. Oz

Gardiner, brown, sandin, 1st

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

Leafs - Pens

Martin Marincin & 4th
For
Jamie Oleksiak

Leafs - Jackets

Josh Anderson
For
Andreas Johnsson, Cale Rosen & 2nd

Leafs - Flyers

Radko Gudas
For
Connor Brown, 3rd 2020

Leafs - Knights

Ryan Reaves (@2,000,000)
For
Picks & Prospects

Nylander - Matthews - Anderson
Hyman - - - Tavares - - - Marner
Marleau - - - Kadri - - - Kapanen
Ennis - - - Lindholm - - - Reaves

Rielly - - - - Gudas
Gardiner - Zaitsev
Dermott - Oleksiak
Hainsey - Ozhiganov

Top 9 is still insanely fast and skilled, 4th Line loses Johnsson but Ennis brings speed aswell, and Brown is replaces with the Size and Grittiness of Reaves

Gudas comes in as our net clearing dman to play with Rielly (similar to how Polak was put in that spot against the caps) and Oleksiak is a #6/7 Upgrade. Hainsey can fill in for Oleksiak when needed



​

 

[SprDaVE]

Gardiner is the reason why Zaitsev has to play in that crappy role in the first place. Otherwise he could be in a role much more suited for his style of play, would actually be allowed to move the puck, and be able to take risks without having to worry about Gardiner covering for him. Maybe he could actually produce some offense, which he has shown he is more than capable of doing at the NHL level.

Gardiner is a 20 minute defenseman who should have a lot of offensive zone time to generate offense from the back end. That is when he looks his best. Unfortunately, that is also not the type of defenseman the Leafs need to be successful right now, since we have Rielly and even Dermott as capable offensive zone players.

You're blaming Gardiner for Zaitsevs play? Gardiner is why Zaitsev only has 1 primary point in over a year?

I didn't think there was another reason to blame Gardiner for things, but I guess we've sunk to a new low.

 

[gabeliscious]

Leafs - Pens

Martin Marincin & 4th
For
Jamie Oleksiak

Leafs - Jackets

Josh Anderson
For
Andreas Johnsson, Cale Rosen & 2nd

Leafs - Flyers

Radko Gudas
For
Connor Brown, 3rd 2020

Leafs - Knights

Ryan Reaves (@2,000,000)
For
Picks & Prospects

Nylander - Matthews - Anderson
Hyman - - - Tavares - - - Marner
Marleau - - - Kadri - - - Kapanen
Ennis - - - Lindholm - - - Reaves

Rielly - - - - Gudas
Gardiner - Zaitsev
Dermott - Oleksiak
Hainsey - Ozhiganov

Top 9 is still insanely fast and skilled, 4th Line loses Johnsson but Ennis brings speed aswell, and Brown is replaces with the Size and Grittiness of Reaves

Gudas comes in as our net clearing dman to play with Rielly (similar to how Polak was put in that spot against the caps) and Oleksiak is a #6/7 Upgrade. Hainsey can fill in for Oleksiak when needed



​

Johnsson is going to play better then his contract. Zero chance he gets moved imo. Like dermott....we need people on entry level deals who are nhl players.

Leafs could bridge johnsson for 2 years at $1 million imo. Cant pass on that kind of value.

Imo kapanen or brown will be odd man out. If kap takes $2.5 for 3 years they may move brown. If kap is looking for $3.5+ i think they move for defense help and stick with brown at $2.5 mill on 3rd line.

Leafs have some hard decisions coming up due to cap situation.