Speculation: Trade and Free Agency Talk - LIII

[Bazeek]

The willful ignorance is recognizing that this teams downfall is defense and goaltending and saying "oh well what can you do" while whining about how not upgrading the offense is a miss. The team is third in the league in goals per game. You can surely see how dumb that is from a logical perspective. Diminishing returns is a real theory and you're going balls to wall against it. If you're serious about actually fixing the issues and making a Cup you'd be talking about bringing in a defenseman or goaltender to improve the teams weakness, not bringing in a center because it feels nice.

I'm advocating for adding a center, with a definition of "a center" ranging between Namestnikov and Hertl. This is a radical enough idea to be described as "willful ignorance", "whining", "dumb", illogical, and driven by emotion?

From what I see, the center between Fiala and Boldy is the softest spot on the roster and the easiest to upgrade. If there's a goalie available that would be an upgrade on Talbot I'm not against that either, but that hasn't seemed likely (though I admit I haven't really looked in the past few weeks).

 

[57special]

Yes, our D needs an upgrade, but that doesn't mean that we have to do that by getting better Dmen. Pitlick is gone because he only paid lip service to play without the puck. A guy like JEE adds a lot to team D. A guy like Kap does, too, in his own way...it's hard for the other team to score when you have the puck.

 

[AKL]

I'm advocating for adding a center, with a definition of "a center" ranging between Namestnikov and Hertl. This is a radical enough idea to be described as "willful ignorance", "whining", "dumb", illogical, and driven by emotion?

From what I see, the center between Fiala and Boldy is the softest spot on the roster and the easiest to upgrade. If there's a goalie available that would be an upgrade on Talbot I'm not against that either, but that hasn't seemed likely (though I admit I haven't really looked in the past few weeks).

Ultimately what it comes down to is you wanting to do the wrong thing for the wrong reasons.

Most teams that make big deadline acquisitions do so because they see they have a team that looks like it has a real shot at winning the Cup, but maybe has one small hole they want to patch up, or maybe they don't feel they have any holes, and they just want to bolster their team a little bit, or like Fletcher did with Hanzal, keep their competition from bolstering their team or patching their holes.

What you and others are doing is making a move simply for the sake of making a move. You know the real hole is defense and goaltending, not offense, but you don't really care about that, and making a bad move is better than making no move at all. That's dumb and emotionally charged.

 

[Bazeek]

Ultimately what it comes down to is you wanting to do the wrong thing for the wrong reasons.

Most teams that make big deadline acquisitions do so because they see they have a team that looks like it has a real shot at winning the Cup, but maybe has one small hole they want to patch up, or maybe they don't feel they have any holes, and they just want to bolster their team a little bit, or like Fletcher did with Hanzal, keep their competition from bolstering their team or patching their holes.

What you and others are doing is making a move simply for the sake of making a move. You know the real hole is defense and goaltending, not offense, but you don't really care about that, and making a bad move is better than making no move at all. That's dumb and emotionally charged.

"Wrong" in this case being defined as something that you disagree with. Which is fine, but I'm not going to bang my head against that wall.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

Ultimately what it comes down to is you wanting to do the wrong thing for the wrong reasons.

Most teams that make big deadline acquisitions do so because they see they have a team that looks like it has a real shot at winning the Cup, but maybe has one small hole they want to patch up, or maybe they don't feel they have any holes, and they just want to bolster their team a little bit, or like Fletcher did with Hanzal, keep their competition from bolstering their team or patching their holes.

What you and others are doing is making a move simply for the sake of making a move. You know the real hole is defense and goaltending, not offense, but you don't really care about that, and making a bad move is better than making no move at all. That's dumb and emotionally charged.

in the west, st louis vegas and col are the supposed top 3. how are they all set on defense? are any of their defenses really that much better than the wild this season?

 

[AKL]

"Wrong" in this case being defined as something that you disagree with. Which is fine, but I'm not going to bang my head against that wall.

Maybe, but let's not also sit here and pretend that you admitting the downfall of this team is defense/goaltending, but brushing it off by saying "oh well what can you do" and turning around and saying it's a miss if we don't upgrade the offense (3rd in the league) is anything other than emotionally driven.

in the west, st louis vegas and col are the supposed top 3. how are they all set on defense? are any of their defenses really that much better than the wild this season?

The Wild are 0-5 against those three teams so far, by the way, so whatever case you want to make for us being close to them, I'm not really gonna buy it at this point.

If you add the top two teams from the East, Florida and Tampa, we're 1-8.

1-9 if you include Nashville, the only other Western team above us in the standings.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

I probably wouldn't put Khusnuts out there because of the current organizational situation, but with Brodin signed for forever and the glut of LD prospects we've acquired lately, attaching one of the 3 behind Lambos could be tolerable, depending on the target.

 

[Bazeek]

Maybe, but let's not also sit here and pretend that you admitting the downfall of this team is defense/goaltending, but brushing it off by saying "oh well what can you do" and turning around and saying it's a miss if we don't upgrade the offense (3rd in the league) is anything other than emotionally driven.

"Most likely downfall" in that something is likely to be the downfall, because winning four playoff series is hard. Even runaway Cup favorites have some kind of weakness that's worth shoring up. I don't see it as a reason to cut bait on the season, though.

 

[AKL]

"Most likely downfall" in that something is likely to be the downfall, because winning four playoff series is hard. Even runaway Cup favorites have some kind of weakness that's worth shoring up. I don't see it as a reason to cut bait on the season, personally.

Not trading those assets for a rental isn't "cutting bait on the season". This same team as it is is still going to show up and try to win. You're not selling at the deadline here.
But if you're serious about making a run this year because we might not get the chance to again, your focus should be on actually patching the holes that are likely to be the reason your ship sinks, not making the sails prettier.

 

[Bazeek]

Not trading those assets for a rental isn't "cutting bait on the season". This same team as it is is still going to show up and try to win. You're not selling at the deadline here.
But if you're serious about making a run this year because we might not get the chance to again, your focus should be on actually patching the holes that are likely to be the reason your ship sinks, not making the sails prettier.

In this case, we draw the line between substantial and superficial in different places. I see making an addition this year as worthwhile and you don't, probably because we disagree on a lot of other stuff too. Why that has to be this contentious, I don't know.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Anybody else just kind of want to see Fiala with Boldy and and a good center for the rest of the time that Fiala has here, and isn't so worried about that good center ultimately winning us the Cup? Or is that just me?

 

[Bazeek]

Anybody else just kind of want to see Fiala with Boldy and and a good center for the rest of the time that Fiala has here, and isn't so worried about that good center ultimately winning us the Cup? Or is that just me?

Not just you. Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we... well, hopefully not die, but you never know.

In some sense winning the Cup is always The Goal, but there has to be more to it than that or there's really no point in ever watching. Especially during the regular season.

 

[AKL]

In this case, we draw the line between substantial and superficial in different places. I see making an addition this year as worthwhile and you don't, probably because we disagree on a lot of other stuff too. Why that has to be this contentious, I don't know.

Because, and I can't make this any clearer, the reasoning behind it is dumb.

You've said by now that even runaway Cup favorites have weaknesses to shore up, which implies that shoring up weaknesses is the purpose of making a deadline deal.
You've said that our biggest weaknesses are defense and/or goaltending.
Logically, you would conclude that if this team deems it worth it to make a deadline acquisition, it would be to shore up defense and/or goaltending.
Yet you've explicitly stated that you don't think it's worth it to make a move to shore up those positions.
Yet you still want to make a move to improve a perceived weakness that actually isn't showing up in the results (3rd in goals).
So you're not actually interested in shoring up weaknesses and making this team a stronger team.
You simply just want to trade for a center, whose impact will almost certainly encroach into diminishing returns territory.
You claim you don't want to "waste" this season by not trading for a center.
You'd rather make any move, regardless of if it actually makes a difference or not, than make no move.
You're wasting this season anyway by doing that because you didn't address the real issue that you understand is going to be the downfall of this team.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

The Wild are 0-5 against those three teams so far, by the way, so whatever case you want to make for us being close to them, I'm not really gonna buy it at this point.

If you add the top two teams from the East, Florida and Tampa, we're 1-8.

1-9 if you include Nashville, the only other Western team above us in the standings.

point being that in their defenses are not much better than ours if at all better. one thing almost all of those teams have in common is a strong pp and offense, yes we are clicking along nicely 5v5 and scoring a good amount, just not enough vs the better teams in the league. is that a defense problem or an offense problem? by no means do i want to turn into the oilers and have to score 6+ a game to win but our defense is no where near that tragic. 1 offensive player upgrade that can actually spark puck possession and powerplay scoring can and should prove to be very good for us come playoffs more so than simply trying to defend other teams potent offenses.

 

[AKL]

point being that in their defenses are not much better than ours if at all better. one thing almost all of those teams have in common is a strong pp and offense, yes we are clicking along nicely 5v5 and scoring a good amount, just not enough vs the better teams in the league. is that a defense problem or an offense problem? by no means do i want to turn into the oilers and have to score 6+ a game to win but our defense is no where near that tragic. 1 offensive player upgrade that can actually spark puck possession and powerplay scoring can and should prove to be very good for us come playoffs more so than simply trying to defend other teams potent offenses.

4 of those 6 teams have worse offenses than us.
1 of those 6 teams have worse defenses than us.

Sure, our PP needs a lot of help, but in the playoffs when the whistles have a tendency to go away, it's not really a focus.

Anybody else just kind of want to see Fiala with Boldy and and a good center for the rest of the time that Fiala has here, and isn't so worried about that good center ultimately winning us the Cup? Or is that just me?

So just to be clear, your opinions ARE being driven by emotion rather than logic here.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Not just you. Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we... well, hopefully not die, but you never know.

In some sense winning the Cup is always The Goal, but there has to be more to it than that or there's really no point in ever watching. Especially during the regular season.

I applaud you for it not being uncomfortably important that you be right.

 

[AKL]

I applaud you for it not being uncomfortably important that you be right.

I don't have to be right, just make it make sense. Cause right now it doesn't.

And if you wanna talk, we can talk. You don't need to sub-tweet me.

 

[Bazeek]

Because, and I can't make this any clearer, the reasoning behind it is dumb.

You've said by now that even runaway Cup favorites have weaknesses to shore up, which implies that shoring up weaknesses is the purpose of making a deadline deal.
You've said that our biggest weaknesses are defense and/or goaltending.
Logically, you would conclude that if this team deems it worth it to make a deadline acquisition, it would be to shore up defense and/or goaltending.
Yet you've explicitly stated that you don't think it's worth it to make a move to shore up those positions.
Yet you still want to make a move to improve a perceived weakness that actually isn't showing up in the results (3rd in goals).
So you're not actually interested in shoring up weaknesses and making this team a stronger team.
You simply just want to trade for a center, whose impact will almost certainly encroach into diminishing returns territory.
You claim you don't want to "waste" this season by not trading for a center.
You'd rather make any move, regardless of if it actually makes a difference or not, than make no move.
You're wasting this season anyway by doing that because you didn't address the real issue that you understand is going to be the downfall of this team.

This entire thing continues to hinge on misconstruing "most likely downfall." I don't think goaltending or defense are the team's biggest weaknesses; I think the center between Fiala and Boldy is. It's also the easiest upgrade to make.

Goaltending's just a huge x-factor in the playoffs, and one where there are very few sure things league-wide. It's probably Colorado's achilles heel (again) this year, but I wouldn't say it should prevent them from making a deadline deal either.

 

[AKL]

This entire thing continues to hinge on misconstruing "most likely downfall." I don't think goaltending or defense are the team's biggest weaknesses; I think the center between Fiala and Boldy is. It's also the easiest upgrade to make.

Goaltending's just a huge x-factor in the playoffs, and one where there are very few sure things league-wide. It's probably Colorado's achilles heel (again) this year, but I wouldn't say it should prevent them from making a deadline deal either.

So just to make sure I understand your point, you think the center between Fiala and Boldy is more likely to determine the outcome of a playoff series than the weaknesses in our defense and goaltending?

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

So just to be clear, your opinions ARE being driven by emotion rather than logic here.

Sometimes, sure. I guess that this appears to be one of those times.

I watch mostly for entertainment purposes now anyways, with a connection to this team based almost solely on where my parents decided to live. A bunch of people that I don't know winning their last game of the season doesn't quite hold the same importance that it did for me maybe 5-10 years ago. But to be fair, I'm not sure if it's me being wiser or just more apathetic.

 

[Arturia Pendragon]

Good grief, let’s wait for Spurgeon and Brodin to make a return.
Biggest hole on this roster is the center spot between Fiala and Boldy. Not even close.
Oh and that center could help boost the defense too.

 

[AKL]

Good grief, let’s wait for Spurgeon and Brodin to make a return.
Biggest hole on this roster is the center spot between Fiala and Boldy. Not even close.
Oh and that center could help boost the defense too.

Spurgeon has missed the last 6 games and Brodin has missed the last 3. We've played 35. It's hardly outrageous to say we had a defense/goaltending problem before they got injured.

 

[Bazeek]

So just to make sure I understand your point, you think the center between Fiala and Boldy is more likely to determine the outcome of a playoff series than the weaknesses in our defense and goaltending?

I think that the center on that line is the biggest weak spot on the roster. I also think that it is the easiest to upgrade. The bar is low enough that you don't even have to buy into the Miller/Hertl tier to make a difference.

Goaltending is always going to take on oversized importance in the playoffs though, at least in my mind. The goaltender is more likely to determine the outcome of a given game or series than any other position, but that's just the nature of the position. Especially on a team with solid depth and few acute weaknesses. We could go out and acquire the best goalie on the market and it wouldn't really change that.

The only other thing that stands out in importance for the playoffs is special teams, but that's also one of the reasons I think centers are worth looking into.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

4 of those 6 teams have worse offenses than us.
1 of those 6 teams have worse defenses than us.

Sure, our PP needs a lot of help, but in the playoffs when the whistles have a tendency to go away, it's not really a focus.

How many prior years have we had a quality 5v5 offense and poor pp and claim that was ok going into the playoffs as you don’t get many pp and then when we never score on the pp oh we need an upgrade? I may be delusional but I recall it being a running theme that a good pp in the playoffs is not needed until we get there and then it’s so obvious that is the thing we needs besides a hot goalie.

 

[guitarhunterdude]

Anybody else just kind of want to see Fiala with Boldy and and a good center for the rest of the time that Fiala has here, and isn't so worried about that good center ultimately winning us the Cup? Or is that just me?

I'll say I am coming around on this the more underwhelmed I am (by the day) with the prospects in this upcoming draft. Watching a team with a really good top-six with exciting wingers and the best third line in the league, would probably be more fun than whatever prospect we take in the mid-20s, and maybe not significantly worse for the team long term.