Confirmed with Link: Toronto Maple Leafs file for club-elected salary arbitration with G Jonathan Bernier

[therealkoho]

So now top 5 goaltending is "very average". Interesting.

Price or Bernier

Bishop or Bernier

Lundqvist or Bernier

Anderson or Bernier

Halak or Bernier

Rask or Bernier

Quick or Bernier

Dubnyk or Bernier

Schneider or Bernier

Loungo or Bernier

Miller or Bernier

Hiller or Bernier

Rinne or Bernier

Ramo or Bernier

Mrazek or Bernier

Lack or Bernier

the money aside, be honest thats a lot more then 5 and still at least 10 more guys to list

Yeah, that's not how you determine contracts. If Bernier had "proven himself to be a bona fide #1", we'd be looking at a 6+ contract at the very least.

at 5.1 w/o ever winning anything let alone a playoff round, is bona fide starter money

COMPARABLES (career stats)

JONATHAN BERNIER
Age: 26
Record: 76-67-20
Save percentage: .916
Goals-against average: 2.87

-

STEVE MASON
Age: 27
Salary: $4.1 million a year
Team: Flyers
Record: 151-137-71
Save percentage: .910
GAA: 2.71

-

BRADEN HOLTBY
Age: 25
Salary: $6.1 million a year
Team: Capitals
Record: 101-51-38
Save percentage: .921
GAA: 2.44

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs...-jonathan-bernier-with-arbitration-offer.html

Dubious at best

 

[FlareKnight]

I just read a torstar article and berniers numbers are almost identical to riemers over their first 75 games with the team. That invokes the question. Will riemer play exactly as well with improved team play over the long haul?

To say you are comfortable with riemer is one thing but to say the same on bernier at double the salary demands is another thing.

So who is better value here. Seems like riemer by a long shot on my reasoning. Bernier is on his way out the door already seems.

If Reimer steps up and produces then it won't be massively greater value in the long haul because he's going to get paid massive money like any #1 goalie. He's not going to say "oh, I'll just keep getting paid what I'm being paid now, that's cool."

I don't think we should determine the goalie we're going to be trusting for the long haul based on a salary value over seasons that don't matter.

In the end it comes down to figuring out which one if either of these guys is the #1 goalie they will hitch themselves to. With this arbitration hearing there may not be as much choice left up to the Leafs. With the one year deal Bernier can just walk next year and that'll be that.

 

[Gary Nylund]

If Reimer steps up and produces then it won't be massively greater value in the long haul because he's going to get paid massive money like any #1 goalie. He's not going to say "oh, I'll just keep getting paid what I'm being paid now, that's cool."

I don't think we should determine the goalie we're going to be trusting for the long haul based on a salary value over seasons that don't matter.

In the end it comes down to figuring out which one if either of these guys is the #1 goalie they will hitch themselves to. With this arbitration hearing there may not be as much choice left up to the Leafs. With the one year deal Bernier can just walk next year and that'll be that.

I don't know what the Leaf's future plans are but Reimer as the #1 going forward isn't it.

 

[RealityBytes]

If Reimer steps up and produces then it won't be massively greater value in the long haul because he's going to get paid massive money like any #1 goalie. He's not going to say "oh, I'll just keep getting paid what I'm being paid now, that's cool."

I don't think we should determine the goalie we're going to be trusting for the long haul based on a salary value over seasons that don't matter.

In the end it comes down to figuring out which one if either of these guys is the #1 goalie they will hitch themselves to. With this arbitration hearing there may not be as much choice left up to the Leafs. With the one year deal Bernier can just walk next year and that'll be that.

It's not all that easy. Where does he walk to? For the money he wants, he would have to displace a starter but he hasn't really got great numbers for that. Most likely he would have to sign as a backup, but that in turn would most likely be less money than the Leafs are offering.

 

[Mess]

Dubious at best

Got that straight from here: http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs...-jonathan-bernier-with-arbitration-offer.html

However Mason $4.1 mil and Holtby $6.1 mil = Bernier $5.1 mil (Average/mid point) being their arbitration # they submitted and perhaps the case they would have pleaded on their side.

Mason < Bernier < Holtby

 

[34]

I don't know what the Leaf's future plans are but Reimer as the #1 going forward isn't it.

Bernier is not a #1 neither. He is average at best.

I would trade him before this season, because after that they won't get anything for him.

 

[RedLeaf099*]

I would sign him for 1 year so he can help us tank with his 20 softies per year.

 

[edwardslane]

Id like to see Bernier moved to Philly for a 2nd rounder + Mason.. i think that's very realistic with the way Hextall feels about Bernier from their time together in LA

Philly were originally in on Bernier before the Leafs acquired him..offered a 2nd + Read if i remember correctly.. but LA liked Frattin better at the time, also got a goalie back in Scrivens

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Id like to see Bernier moved to Philly for a 2nd rounder + Mason.. i think that's very realistic with the way Hextall feels about Bernier from their time together in LA

Philly were originally in on Bernier before the Leafs acquired him..offered a 2nd + Read if i remember correctly.. but LA liked Frattin better at the time, also got a goalie back in Scrivens

I was looking at what teams would need an unproven #1 Goalie to gamble on Bernier. And unfortunately for Lou Lamorello. Pickings are slim in making a deal. The Oil got Talbot in a nice move and a low cap hit. Buffalo got Lehner for a decent hit also.

Philly has Mason at 4.1. They would have to move him to take on Bernier. Fact is, there is not much of a market for a goalie like Bernier. We may be stuck with him after arbitration.

I would take a 2nd or 3rd for him if I could right now.

 

[Mess]

The Maple Leafs arbitration offer was the lowest the team could have asked for their goalie. The team was represented by GM Lou Lamoriello and assistants Kyle Dubas and Brandon Pridham at the hearing. Bernier was represented by agent Pat Brisson and six other CAA representatives.

The two sides met for about five hours Friday. An arbitration ruling is expected on Sunday.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

If Reimer steps up and produces then it won't be massively greater value in the long haul because he's going to get paid massive money like any #1 goalie. He's not going to say "oh, I'll just keep getting paid what I'm being paid now, that's cool."

I don't think we should determine the goalie we're going to be trusting for the long haul based on a salary value over seasons that don't matter.

In the end it comes down to figuring out which one if either of these guys is the #1 goalie they will hitch themselves to. With this arbitration hearing there may not be as much choice left up to the Leafs. With the one year deal Bernier can just walk next year and that'll be that.

He can walk all he wants.With them numbers he demanded to much with the lack of value he has delivered. He is just not that good.

 

[mikeo1]

Bernier is not a #1 neither. He is average at best.

I would trade him before this season, because after that they won't get anything for him.

Words have meanings. Average at best implies that he is mostly below average, which is clearly not the case.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Words have meanings. Average at best implies that he is mostly below average, which is clearly not the case.

2.87 gaa is likely well below average. His sv% is very good though. Likely above average. Wins and losses ratio is below average. Seems to me he is average at best too.

 

[Mess]

2.87 gaa is likely well below average. His sv% is very good though. Likely above average. Wins and losses ratio is below average. Seems to me he is average at best too.

Sv% is more a personal stat based on how many saves a goalie makes whereas goals against average is more a team stat based on the players that are playing in front of the goal.

 

[Stephen]

If Reimer steps up and produces then it won't be massively greater value in the long haul because he's going to get paid massive money like any #1 goalie. He's not going to say "oh, I'll just keep getting paid what I'm being paid now, that's cool."

I don't think we should determine the goalie we're going to be trusting for the long haul based on a salary value over seasons that don't matter.

In the end it comes down to figuring out which one if either of these guys is the #1 goalie they will hitch themselves to. With this arbitration hearing there may not be as much choice left up to the Leafs. With the one year deal Bernier can just walk next year and that'll be that.

I'm more inclined to think neither of them will be the solution long term. Just because Bernier isn't developing as hoped does it mean it's appropriate to circle back to Reimer. By the end of this rebuild, both of these guys will probably be burner goalies.

Bernier has the skills and vision, but not the size or the battle. Reimer has the size and the battle but not the skills or the vision. It's almost like we have to find that guy who has both of their strengths. The search continues.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Sv% is more a personal stat based on how many saves a goalie makes whereas goals against average is more a team stat based on the players that are playing in front of the goal.

I understand that. This past draft i though was awesome but we did not draft a single goalie. Its going to jump up and bite us down the road. There is no Ufa goalies to save us in the next three years also. We better hope they start drafting goalies in the next three drafts.

There is a whole bunch of scenarios to determine a goalies actual numbers personally and team oriented. I think we need to be like this more in contract negotiations actually.

Bernier is unproven and has actually been fragile and strong at times. He's been injured a fair amount to because he isn't big enough.

 

[bobermay]

Jonathan Bernier

Career Totals:

GP|W|L|OT|SO|SV%|GAA|MIN

175​

|

76​

|

67​

|

20​

|

9​

|

.916​

|

2.63​

|

9271​

Leafs Totals:

GP|W|L|OT|SO|SV%|GAA|MIN

103​

|

47​

|

47​

|

14​

|

3​

|

.918​

|

2.78​

|

6261​

James Reimer

Career and Leafs Totals

GP|W|L|OT|SO|SV%|GAA|MIN

175​

|

74​

|

64​

|

16​

|

11​

|

.913​

|

2.91​

|

9367​

Why again is Bernier worth significantly more than Reimer?

Just to clarify, I'm not denying Bernier is the better goaltender, but I wouldn't want to sign him any more than 3.5 mil, and I would be very cautious to agree to terms anywhere north of 4mil...

 

[Mess]

Can a goalie on a bad team really post good stats or is he a victim on his environment?.

Devan Dubnyk went for Edmonton to Arizona to almost out of the league till he arrived in Minny and now is considered a core piece after playing in front of a good team.

Bernier had to play in front of JVR - Bozak - Kessel which were among the worst line as defensive players in the NHL and worst +/-. When a goalie isn't getting any support he is a sitting duck as the last line of defense.

Bernier had a 1.88 GAA and .922 sv% in LA in 2012-13 before becoming a Leaf and 2.87 GAA and .913 SV% as a Leaf. The strength of the team in front of the goalie directly effects his stats.

Therefore the better the Leafs get the better Bernier will get as there is a direct relationship here. IMO

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I'm more inclined to think neither of them will be the solution long term. Just because Bernier isn't developing as hoped does it mean it's appropriate to circle back to Reimer. By the end of this rebuild, both of these guys will probably be burner goalies.

Bernier has the skills and vision, but not the size or the battle. Reimer has the size and the battle but not the skills or the vision. It's almost like we have to find that guy who has both of their strengths. The search continues.

That would have been MacKenzie Blackwood i believe. This guy was one of the fitest athletes in a number of tests at the combine. We could have had him and i was not very happy when another team landed him. Friggin New Jersey again.

 

[Menzinger]

I'd have zero issue trading Bernier and then riding Reimer for the next couple years of the rebuild.

If Reimer plays well, the Leafs get a starting goalie. If he falters the Leafs pick selection is better. And they'd get assets from the Bernier trade. It's win-win-win.

Decent starting goalies are always availible on the trade market (the Wild got one for a 3rd this past season!).

 

[Stephen]

I'd have zero issue trading Bernier and then riding Reimer for the next couple years of the rebuild.

If Reimer plays well, the Leafs get a starting goalie. If he falters the Leafs pick selection is better. And they'd get assets from the Bernier trade. It's win-win-win.

Decent starting goalies are always availible on the trade market (the Wild got one for a 3rd this past season!).

I don't see any point in this other than satisfying Reimer fans.

We know Reimer can play well, but we know where he'll fail too. He shouldn't be an option.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I'd have zero issue trading Bernier and then riding Reimer for the next couple years of the rebuild.

If Reimer plays well, the Leafs get a starting goalie. If he falters the Leafs pick selection is better. And they'd get assets from the Bernier trade. It's win-win-win.

Decent starting goalies are always availible on the trade market (the Wild got one for a 3rd this past season!).

Stuck with Bernier unless they trade him by tomorrow.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I don't see any point in this other than satisfying Reimer fans.

We know Reimer can play well, but we know where he'll fail too. He shouldn't be an option.

Reimer has been victimized by a piss poor decensiveteam also. He must be a option. I think Reimer should be even better playing behind a better possession team. He doesn't give up many bad goals. He gets beat high glove to much but every goalie has a weakness. Miller when he was at his very best hated traffic in his crease and would lose focus if you crowed him every time.

I believe Reimer has better sustained in-game focus than Bernier.

 

[timlap]

I have no issue whatsoever with how the Leafs are handling this. In fact, I'm pleased. It's time we only gave out long term contracts to players who have absolutely earned them. We need to stop being afraid of losing people to free agency. In some cases it would be a real blessing.

And I actually like Bernier.

On another note, I hope that soon save percentage and other goalie stats will be exposed for the inadequate measures that I suspect them to be.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Price or Bernier

Bishop or Bernier

Lundqvist or Bernier

Anderson or Bernier

Halak or Bernier

Rask or Bernier

Quick or Bernier

Dubnyk or Bernier

Schneider or Bernier

Loungo or Bernier

Miller or Bernier

Hiller or Bernier

Rinne or Bernier

Ramo or Bernier

Mrazek or Bernier

Lack or Bernier

the money aside, be honest thats a lot more then 5 and still at least 10 more guys to list




at 5.1 w/o ever winning anything let alone a playoff round, is bona fide starter money

You said he had been average the last 2 seasons. The first one as a Leaf was statistically a top 5 season.

Also have to say I'm very dubious to that list of yours. Some of those players have exactly the same question marks over a larger sample size. I'd rather have Bernier than Ramo, Miller, Dubnyk and Halak.

And my other point was since you mentioned how he didn't deserve a raise because he's not a bonafide #1 goaltender. There's a lot more fluidity to evaluation and contract negotiations than that.