Confirmed with Link: [TOR/VGK] TOR acquire David Clarkson & a 2020 4th Round Pick from VGK for Garrett Sparks

[Spirit of 67]

Yeah, after reading a little more I'm fine with it.

I think the better conversation is the “favour.”

We did them a favour and some feel we should’ve been better compensated for it.

The question is, is it worth it to dicker around for something that’s barely better or are you best off being owed a favour?

 

[Bluelines]

1) Technically a red paperclip still has value, even if it is minimal. It's not like that guy was hurting by having that red paperclip in his possession, and at the very least he could have still held papers together.
2) See 1), but apply it to Sparks. He doesn't cost us anything on the cap. He costs a contract spot, but him being either a backup or #3 was more valuable than that. So he was not "negative value".

However, given we had too many goalies in the organization and we can replace Sparks with Neuvirth for free, I am not upset with getting a pick out of him... And I liked him more than most.

I stand corrected the red paperclip had more value than Sparks

The fact he was told to go home at the end of the season to keep him away from the team AND we he was seemingly untraceable until we took a LTIR dump for him makes him a negative value.

 

[Bluelines]

Leafs gave up a 5th last year for Hutchenson who is currently listed as Leafs backup, because the Sparks decision over McElhinney was such a poor choice and now we get a 4th back, which essentially compensates for the pick we lost for Hutch.

Keeping McElhinney, and our own 5th, and letting Sparks walk as UFA and not resigning him, would have prevented the need to reacquire Clarkson, and no red paper clips only good management.

I think the positive in this is we see that although Dubas may favor "his guys" he is not blind to their faults and is willing to dump them for an injured player at the drop of a hat. Everyone makes mistakes, its how you recover is what is important. Dubas made a mistake picking Sparks, he recognized Sparks was not part of the solution so he acted on that. Kudos for Dubas for cleaning up his own mess (no pun intended).

 

[Bluelines]

There are plenty of posts who think we didn’t get enough back.

I think its a clear steal of a deal for Dubas

 

[Randy Randerson]

Pleased to grab some grit for Robidas Island.

I wonder if they'll have like an "Island Line" at the alumni games

 

[ottomaddox]

I'm still pretty angry about Dubas giving Sparks his opportunity last season.

Perhaps TOR could have had home ice advantage in the playoffs

 

[diceman934]

Well, it's about Leafs fans who wanted to fire him into the sun from a nuclear cannon who are now suddenly dissatisfied with a 4th round pick for him.

We did not get a 4th pick for him. We got the pick for the Clarkson contract. Sparks value was nothing.

 

[Twowingcantfly]

Well, finally we found a way to sign our A2 star. For this team to win the cup, we need to find 2 two way centers. Matthews is the only one we got. I'm afraid our 67 nightmare continues.

 

[29Potvin]

I'm still pretty angry about Dubas giving Sparks his opportunity last season.

Perhaps TOR could have had home ice advantage in the playoffs

How did having home ice in game 6 work for us??? would it of been any different playing it in Boston??? We won game one in Boston taken home ice away from them and were 2-2 in Boston and 1-2 @ home.

 

[Mess]

The Leafs only wanted a 4th for 200k what would be the price for 3.4 mill more?

The biggest challenge for Toronto would be to find a suitor for Horton that could both afford the real money cost + are already in LTIR. From a quick skim it seems like only Detroit can do both.

Carolina gladly took Leafs 1st from Dubas for eating $3.5 mil real $$ of Marleau salary, and buying him out. This is no different than trading LTIR Horton with $3.5 mil balance in real $$$, with slight adjustment difference in cap hit.

You don't need a team with deep pockets and LTIR as teams playing at the cap floor like bigger AAV cap hits with smaller actual dollars just to get above the cap floor.. LTIR for them is simply dead cap space but if teams are playing $16 mil below the ceiling why would they need LTIR benefits that is only for teams near the cap ceiling and in cap trouble.

Instead of clearing up LTIR, our Leafs are actually doubling down on bad contracts.

My point was dealing Horton ($5.3 mil) and not acquiring Clarkson at $5.25 mil = $10.55 mil also same as $10.55 mil LTIR and both moves allow you to sign Marner for $10 mil.

Perhaps Horton should have been worked into the Zaitsev/Brown for Ceci trade with Leafs compensating Ottawa for the $3.5 mil salary of Horton. Ottawa sits 31st in AAV cap hit and still $20 mil in free cap space.. They need a $4 mil AAV/Cap hit just to get to the floor and Horton's $5.3 mil would have accomplished that.. .Maybe Leafs would have needed to include AJ instead of Brown or tossed in a 2nd instead of a 3rd round pick. etc.

 

[The Podium]

Carolina gladly took Leafs 1st from Dubas for eating $3.5 mil real $$ of Marleau salary, and buying him out. This is no different than trading LTIR Horton with $3.5 mil balance in real $$$, with slight adjustment difference in cap hit.

You don't need a team with deep pockets and LTIR as teams playing at the cap floor like bigger AAV cap hits with smaller actual dollars just to get above the cap floor.. LTIR for them is simply dead cap space but if teams are playing $16 mil below the ceiling why would they need LTIR benefits that is only for teams near the cap ceiling and in cap trouble.

Instead of clearing up LTIR, our Leafs are actually doubling down on bad contracts.

My point was dealing Horton ($5.3 mil) and not acquiring Clarkson at $5.25 mil = $10.55 mil also same as $10.55 mil LTIR and both moves allow you to sign Marner for $10 mil.

Perhaps Horton should have been worked into the Zaitsev/Brown for Ceci trade with Leafs compensating Ottawa for the $3.5 mil salary of Horton. Ottawa sits 31st in AAV cap hit and still $20 mil in free cap space.. They need a $4 mil AAV/Cap hit just to get to the floor and Horton's $5.3 mil would have accomplished that.. .Maybe Leafs would have needed to include AJ instead of Brown or tossed in a 2nd instead of a 3rd round pick. etc.

I completely understand what you are saying, but the cost of getting rid of Horton is roughly the same as the cost we paid to get rid of Marleau or at least closer to that cost. Would you rather give up more assets or take one in return to ultimately achieve more or less the same result.

Like you said, it probably takes Johnsson instead of Brown, is that really what you would prefer?

 

[The Podium]

I'm still pretty angry about Dubas giving Sparks his opportunity last season.

Perhaps TOR could have had home ice advantage in the playoffs

No goalie in the league playing in place of Sparks with the same number and quality of starts would get us home ice advantage.

 

[ottomaddox]

No goalie in the league playing in place of Sparks with the same number and quality of starts would get us home ice advantage.

Toronto was only 7 points back of Boston.

 

[zeke]

I completely understand what you are saying, but the cost of getting rid of Horton is roughly the same as the cost we paid to get rid of Marleau or at least closer to that cost. Would you rather give up more assets or take one in return to ultimately achieve more or less the same result.

Like you said, it probably takes Johnsson instead of Brown, is that really what you would prefer?

Based on what he was saying all season, I believe mess preferred to trade Nylander instead.

 

[hector morrison]

I'm still pretty angry about Dubas giving Sparks his opportunity last season.

Perhaps TOR could have had home ice advantage in the playoffs

They did...game 6!

 

[The Podium]

Toronto was only 7 points back of Boston.

I posted this in another thread

We trailed Boston by 7 points or roughly 3-0-1 difference to our current record. Sparks record was 8 - 8 - 1 in games started. For the Leafs to catch Boston the backup goalie would have to have gone 12-4-1 or 11-4-2 which is possible when looking at it black and white but if we dive deeper you can see why it is unlikely.

McElhinney would have to have a 0.710 Win% on the season for the Leafs to have had home ice advantage, which was only done by Vasilevskiy this season.

Now not only would he need a 0.710 Win% but he would have to do it with 10 of his 17 starts being a back to back and 11 of those 17 games the Leafs scored 2 goals or fewer.

The only argument that can be made is perhaps Babcock would have more faith in McElhinney and give Andersen a bit of a break down the stretch. But considering he only played 18 and 14 games in the 2 years prior, I doubt that would be the case.

 

[yubbers]

No goalie in the league playing in place of Sparks with the same number and quality of starts would get us home ice advantage.

uhhhhhh.....we had one. Then we waived him.

Big Mac: 33GP 20W 11L .912 SV% 2.58GAA
Sparks : 20 GP 8W 9L .902 SV% 3.15GAA

So a .606 winning%
Vs a .400 winning%

That's very much home ice.

 

[The Podium]

uhhhhhh.....we had one. Then we waived him.

Big Mac: 33GP 20W 11L .912 SV% 2.58GAA
Sparks : 20 GP 8W 9L .902 SV% 3.15GAA

So a .606 winning%
Vs a .400 winning%

That's very much home ice.

Literally read the post above yours

Hint .606 w% wouldn’t have been enough for home ice

 

[Nithoniniel]

I posted this in another thread

We trailed Boston by 7 points or roughly 3-0-1 difference to our current record. Sparks record was 8 - 8 - 1 in games started. For the Leafs to catch Boston the backup goalie would have to have gone 12-4-1 or 11-4-2 which is possible when looking at it black and white but if we dive deeper you can see why it is unlikely.

McElhinney would have to have a 0.710 Win% on the season for the Leafs to have had home ice advantage, which was only done by Vasilevskiy this season.

Now not only would he need a 0.710 Win% but he would have to do it with 10 of his 17 starts being a back to back and 11 of those 17 games the Leafs scored 2 goals or fewer.

The only argument that can be made is perhaps Babcock would have more faith in McElhinney and give Andersen a bit of a break down the stretch. But considering he only played 18 and 14 games in the 2 years prior, I doubt that would be the case.

Boom. Spot on.

I think I made a similar test a while ago, looking at what amount of goals saved McElhinney could have given us compared to Sparks in that backup role given their relative level of performance. I arrived at something like a 3 point swing, from a purely statistical point of view. Not even close.

It's asking a lot from most players in the league to make up a 7 point difference on their own to begin with, let alone for a backup goalie.

 

[DarkKnight]

Someone posted the backup would have had to go 11-4-2 for us to catch Boston. Sort of like the 11-5 McBackup gave us the year prior. I mean...

 

[The Podium]

Boom. Spot on.

I think I made a similar test a while ago, looking at what amount of goals saved McElhinney could have given us compared to Sparks in that backup role given their relative level of performance. I arrived at something like a 3 point swing, from a purely statistical point of view. Not even close.

It's asking a lot from most players in the league to make up a 7 point difference on their own to begin with, let alone for a backup goalie.

Ya, I remember that post of yours well and wanted to go back to add it to my quote but couldn’t find it.

A backup goalie, especially in a Babcock system, simply plays to few games to have that kind of impact. Anyone who thinks “a better backup would’ve got us home ice” needs to take a step back and realize that would be asking your backup to provide roughly 25% of the teams points while only playing 20% of the season.

 

[CanadasTeam]

Ya, I remember that post of yours well and wanted to go back to add it to my quote but couldn’t find it.

A backup goalie, especially in a Babcock system, simply plays to few games to have that kind of impact. Anyone who thinks “a better backup would’ve got us home ice” needs to take a step back and realize that would be asking your backup to provide roughly 25% of the teams points while only playing 20% of the season.

Screw the home ice advantage. Point remains that Spark sucked.

 

[yubbers]

Literally read the post above yours

Hint .606 w% wouldn’t have been enough for home ice

yes it would've

math is hard. Sparks would've needed 4 ore wins for 12. Which is 6.00 on the money

 

[The Podium]

yes it would've

math is hard. Sparks would've needed 4 ore wins for 12. Which is 6.00 on the money

12 wins in 17 starts is 0.706 but ya math is hard

 

[The Podium]

Someone posted the backup would have had to go 11-4-2 for us to catch Boston. Sort of like the 11-5 McBackup gave us the year prior. I mean...

He went 11-5-1 in what was a career outlier with a .934 save% and 2 of the wins were games he didn’t even start. In games McElhinney started he was 9-5-1. Now consider he would have to exceed his career outlier season for the Leafs to have tied Boston (I’m not sure who carried the tie breaker).