Line Combos: TOR needs to **** or get off the pot in regards to our defense

[ottomaddox]

I would like to reflect on our current team and the better Leaf teams in recent history. Specifically the 90's era where the Leafs had 4 semi-final appearances in 10 years.

Year and D-core:

1992-1993 (semi - finals, lost in 7 games)

R. Rouse, D. Ellett, J. Macoun, S. Lefebvre, T. Gill, D. Mironov

1993-1994 (semi - finals, lost in 5 games)

R. Rouse, D. Ellett, J. Macoun, S. Lefebvre, T. Gill, D. Mironov

1998-1999 (semi-finals, lost in 5 games)

A. Karpovtsev, T. Kaberle, D. Yushkevich, Bryan Berard, Daniel Markov, J. Smith, S. Cote

2001-2002 (semi-finals, lost in 6 games)

B. McCabe, T. Kaberle, D. Yushkevich, Cory Cross, Aki Berg, Jyrki Lumme

I think you might argue that "those were different times and this is a different league", but I still would take these team's D-core over our current one any day of the week.

If you watch VGK and WSH go at it tonight, you'll notice several things we are missing: toughness (not face punching toughness), a dedication to winning puck battles, a dedication to the defensive side of the position (I'm looking at you Gardiner), a simple puck moving game, some players who run into trouble flip the puck to the centre ice area, if there is no pass to be made they just put it off the boards just outside their blue line, no stretch passes (I'm looking at you Gardiner), and shot blocking (from most of their players).

This is what we should expect, and this is what I'd like on my leaf team. This is what those teams of the 90's had, and this is what we don't have at all.

If our team going forward is:

Rielly Hainsey
Gardiner Zaitsev
Dermott Polak

We will never win a playoff series.

I really don't buy that a good #2 RHD is going to make all the difference.

When comparing VGK, WSH, and the 90's leafs I would say we could use 3 more defensemen.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Yuskevich, Markov and Lefebvre all big, tough, hard-hitting guys

 

[Bluelines]

Dubas was asked this question directly, how do you improve the defence?

Dubas answer was, I think our answers come from within the organization.

So those of you looking for a Cliff Fletcher type roster shake up, put away your wild fantasies and just accept that on the trade/UFA front this team is going to be REALLY boring over the short term.

Jake will be back, Zaitsev will be in the top 4, Dermott will probably be in the top four with Rielly, Jake and Zaitsev.

We have to hope that Zaitsev will be the Zaitsev that we just saw in the Worlds and not the injury prone and slow Zaitsev we saw in the 2nd half of the season last year. Lets hope Dermott takes a step forward in his development and not a step back by trying to be more than he really is, we saw him force the play/make bad reads a few times in the Boston series, something he didn't do in the regular season, and it ended up in our net.

Lots of boring to happen this summer in regards to the Leafs, lets hope some of them Marlies have a pro summer and kick butt in camp because according to Dubas our answers are on that team.

 

[Bluelines]

Yuskevich, Markov and Lefebvre all big, tough, hard-hitting guys

Lefebvre is one of the most underrated d-man that I've watched in the last 40 years, he was a glue type defender, never a star but always made other players better... just a rock solid player. Man I miss Yuskie, shame his career had to end early, that guy was a warrior, no one was tougher than him on the blue line. The consummate team player, he always put the logo on his chest first.

 

[Bluelines]

As I also said, "I'm not arguing that there aren't significant issues with the team". There are. No denying that. I just see no reason to be apoplectic about it. Again, if nothing has changed in a couple of years, then this will be more like where the Raptors are now and I'll be upset. I see no reason to be upset right now unless this team is unable to learn and improve.

Agreed, IMO we need 2 more impact type forwards and 2 more impact type defenders and this team will have a chance at a cup.

 

[DanM]

Agreed, IMO we need 2 more impact type forwards and 2 more impact type defenders and this team will have a chance at a cup.

I agree

I see Bracco, Engvall, Grundy, Johnsson, Kappy, Marchmant, Alto, and Tima as all potential replacements on the forward side of things, plus see what we have in Par Lindholm.

On the D side of the equation, I believe Lily will be one of the two, but we need to make a move for a another solid D.

 

[ottomaddox]

Dubas was asked this question directly, how do you improve the defence?

Dubas answer was, I think our answers come from within the organization.

So those of you looking for a Cliff Fletcher type roster shake up, put away your wild fantasies and just accept that on the trade/UFA front this team is going to be REALLY boring over the short term.

Jake will be back, Zaitsev will be in the top 4, Dermott will probably be in the top four with Rielly, Jake and Zaitsev.

We have to hope that Zaitsev will be the Zaitsev that we just saw in the Worlds and not the injury prone and slow Zaitsev we saw in the 2nd half of the season last year. Lets hope Dermott takes a step forward in his development and not a step back by trying to be more than he really is, we saw him force the play/make bad reads a few times in the Boston series, something he didn't do in the regular season, and it ended up in our net.

Lots of boring to happen this summer in regards to the Leafs, lets hope some of them Marlies have a pro summer and kick butt in camp because according to Dubas our answers are on that team.

Gardiner was acquired via trade and never jumped into the line-up as fast as most fans wanted. He had some development on the Marlies. Dermott and Rielly were drafted / developed with this organization. Polak, Zaitsev, and Hainsey came via free agency.

Before you go knocking Fletcher or Quinn half of our players were UFA signings and 1 came from another organization.

There won't be a shake-up, but I can guarantee you that our future successful D-cores will look differently than the what you see currently.

Dubas made a safe statement about TOR's situation, but you know he's saying that before he knows who's available (UFA, trade, draft, etc.)

You might stand behind his statement, but half of our d-core came from the UFA market.

 

[rent free]

i think the leafs should make some under the radar moves like trade for connor murphy and michael stone. they won't cost a lot to give up and they will significantly improve our blueline. there's also the option of signing calvin de haan

 

[Bluelines]

Gardiner was acquired via trade and never jumped into the line-up as fast as most fans wanted. He had some development on the Marlies. Dermott and Rielly were drafted / developed with this organization. Polak, Zaitsev, and Hainsey came via free agency.

Before you go knocking Fletcher or Quinn half of our players were UFA signings and 1 came from another organization.

There won't be a shake-up, but I can guarantee you that our future successful D-cores will look differently than the what you see currently.

Dubas made a safe statement about TOR's situation, but you know he's saying that before he knows who's available (UFA, trade, draft, etc.)

You might stand behind his statement, but half of our d-core came from the UFA market.

I think you misunderstand my post, love Fletcher/Quin, I have nothing but love for those two men.

All I'm saying is Dubas is implying that the move forward strategy is to promote. I think he has a good idea of who will be UFA's and a decent idea of who is avail on the trade market (GM's talk all the time), maybe LA loses their mind and comes to Dubas with a can't resist offer for Drew but the likelihood is slim.

Where our D came from in the past has nothing to do with the Shanyplan or Dubas future intents. Dubas was clear on his intentions, I have no reason to believe he is blowing smoke up our backsides.

 

[81Leafs50]

How many games do we have to see our D bailed out by our goalie, or our scoring talent (forwards)?

How many playoff series do we have to lose?

Why hang on so long to all the wrong parts?

You can't just come in year after year and blame the 5th and 6th D for TOR's woes. We need some fresh eyes and a serious long look at our defense.

Are we missing just 1 guy?
Will Liljegren be the answer?

No. We might still be missing 3 or 4 D.

We have to take some risks here.

Yes that means possibly parting with Jake or Morgan!

The D is not working!

LOL this is great. You are right the Leafs aren't trying their best to get a dman. its not like they don't try every day to better the team. you are right. they are sitting back and relaxing not worrying about the defense at all. lol Leafs fans.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Point is they (Lou) failed to address two of the biggest holes on this team - the D and C (other than patch-work players in Boyle, Pleks, Polak, Marincin)
Hopefully Dubas makes some improvements in that regard or they'll get bounced in the playoffs early again

 

[ottomaddox]

I think you misunderstand my post, love Fletcher/Quin, I have nothing but love for those two men.

All I'm saying is Dubas is implying that the move forward strategy is to promote. I think he has a good idea of who will be UFA's and a decent idea of who is avail on the trade market (GM's talk all the time), maybe LA loses their mind and comes to Dubas with a can't resist offer for Drew but the likelihood is slim.

Where our D came from in the past has nothing to do with the Shanyplan or Dubas future intents. Dubas was clear on his intentions, I have no reason to believe he is blowing smoke up our backsides.

I agree with many of your points. I am not trying to be full on argumentative here.

I am not sure what the Shannyplan is nor do I buy this statement from Dubas. Who in the world is going to be 100% transparent to the media and the fans? I certainly don't want my GM to lay out pure honesty about what TOR is doing this offseason. There might be some truth, but I hope to God they have something else they would like to try.

If it is an internal promotion only then Dubas will have to perform several lobotomies in order for TOR to improve the defense.

 

[ottomaddox]

LOL this is great. You are right the Leafs aren't trying their best to get a dman. its not like they don't try every day to better the team. you are right. they are sitting back and relaxing not worrying about the defense at all. lol Leafs fans.

Be more specific.

 

[GoldenGOOSE]

NHL GM's lie more than politicians. I dunno why they are even asked any questions.

 

[indigobuffalo]

You really think they came close? Two consecutive years, they were upset in the first round, allegations of a poor defence and several forwards not showing up or the supposed explosive offense not showing up.

They have glaring holes and they will be forced to make some difficult choices and changes (they can't re-sign everybody and there are some they should let walk anyway).

Yes, you're in absolute denial. I guess even a reasonable and logical explanation will be lost on you (how on earth can you digest it if you are in such denial?!? It's like talking to a wall.) Sigh. :-/

Insert the Enigo Montoya meme...

Leafs were underdogs both times. Not sure how you feel we got upset...

Maybe the fan base got upset...

 

[indigobuffalo]

I agree with many of your points. I am not trying to be full on argumentative here.

I am not sure what the Shannyplan is nor do I buy this statement from Dubas. Who in the world is going to be 100% transparent to the media and the fans? I certainly don't want my GM to lay out pure honesty about what TOR is doing this offseason. There might be some truth, but I hope to God they have something else they would like to try.

If it is an internal promotion only then Dubas will have to perform several lobotomies in order for TOR to improve the defense.

I think it’s easier to understand what Dubas meant if you assume what he said isn’t true.

I think we will see Liljegren promoted but that isn’t guaranteed. Of course he will explore UFA and trades. He is also going to scour the European market and look everywhere for “inefficiencies” to exploit.

The fact he emphasized promotion means he’s making it known publicly that he feels there’s depth to deal with the defensive issues so rival GMs can’t leverage his “need” to make a trade and agents can’t leverage his “need” in contract discussions for their UFA or RFA clients.

There is literally no story here. Dubas gonna be Dubas and try everything to get the best possible improvement everywhere.

 

[nuck]

I think it’s easier to understand what Dubas meant if you assume what he said isn’t true.

I think we will see Liljegren promoted but that isn’t guaranteed. Of course he will explore UFA and trades. He is also going to scour the European market and look everywhere for “inefficiencies” to exploit.

The fact he emphasized promotion means he’s making it known publicly that he feels there’s depth to deal with the defensive issues so rival GMs can’t leverage his “need” to make a trade and agents can’t leverage his “need” in contract discussions for their UFA or RFA clients.

There is literally no story here. Dubas gonna be Dubas and try everything to get the best possible improvement everywhere.

I really hope the bolded is accurate because there is no top 4RD option in the system who will reliably make an impact over the next year or two. I don't expect we see Lily with the big club until maybe a cup of coffee at the end of next season. There can be easy improvement in the 5-6-7 spots but a shut down D man is the gaping hole in their lineup.

 

[indigobuffalo]

I really hope the bolded is accurate because there is no top 4RD option in the system who will reliably make an impact over the next year or two. I don't expect we see Lily with the big club until maybe a cup of coffee at the end of next season. There can be easy improvement in the 5-6-7 spots but a shut down D man is the gaping hole in their lineup.

It really depends how you qualify a shutdown defenceman.

Is it a Shea Weber? A Dustin Byfuglien? Tyler Myers? Gudbranson?

There are a lot of definitions.

What the Leafs are showing based on their actions is that the best way to shut down the oppositions offence is to not let them have the puck.

So a shutdown defenceman would be someone that is highly skilled, a PMD, high IQ, and a great 1st pass.

That, to me, is Liljegren.

Outside the organization? Mike Green... Kris Letang... Ekman-Larsson...

There are definitely options out there.

 

[nsleaf]

If only great D grew on trees!

 

[Fogelhund]

It really depends how you qualify a shutdown defenceman.

Is it a Shea Weber? A Dustin Byfuglien? Tyler Myers? Gudbranson?

There are a lot of definitions.

What the Leafs are showing based on their actions is that the best way to shut down the oppositions offence is to not let them have the puck.

So a shutdown defenceman would be someone that is highly skilled, a PMD, high IQ, and a great 1st pass.

That, to me, is Liljegren.

Outside the organization? Mike Green... Kris Letang... Ekman-Larsson...

There are definitely options out there.

I'd say those are possession Dmen. A shut down guy is someone with great shot suppression, great PK, and reduces opportunities.

Tanev, Hjammarson are examples.

There are roles for both type on a top team.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I'd say those are possession Dmen. A shut down guy is someone with great shot suppression, great PK, and reduces opportunities.

Tanev, Hjammarson are examples.

There are roles for both type on a top team.

And really you need both types on your team. We have Rielly (whose really both), Gardiner and Dermott as our possession type guys (Dermott may also become both down the line), and had Hainsey, Zaitsev and Polak as a shutdown guys. I am not a fan of Gardiner because he's a possession guy who does not care for the puck as much as he should, but really if the Leafs got another true shutdown guy and bumped Hainsey down to the bottom pairing, we would be more than fine. In fact, if we even just got another hybrid like Rielly and maybe traded Gardiner for more of a hybrid, we would be more than fine, since despite only having Zaitsev and Hainsey as true shutdown guys, we'd at least have hybrid type guys everywhere else.

 

[Boutette]

I would like to reflect on our current team and the better Leaf teams in recent history. Specifically the 90's era where the Leafs had 4 semi-final appearances in 10 years.

Year and D-core:

1992-1993 (semi - finals, lost in 7 games)

R. Rouse, D. Ellett, J. Macoun, S. Lefebvre, T. Gill, D. Mironov

1993-1994 (semi - finals, lost in 5 games)

R. Rouse, D. Ellett, J. Macoun, S. Lefebvre, T. Gill, D. Mironov

1998-1999 (semi-finals, lost in 5 games)

A. Karpovtsev, T. Kaberle, D. Yushkevich, Bryan Berard, Daniel Markov, J. Smith, S. Cote

2001-2002 (semi-finals, lost in 6 games)

B. McCabe, T. Kaberle, D. Yushkevich, Cory Cross, Aki Berg, Jyrki Lumme

I think you might argue that "those were different times and this is a different league", but I still would take these team's D-core over our current one any day of the week.

If you watch VGK and WSH go at it tonight, you'll notice several things we are missing: toughness (not face punching toughness), a dedication to winning puck battles, a dedication to the defensive side of the position (I'm looking at you Gardiner), a simple puck moving game, some players who run into trouble flip the puck to the centre ice area, if there is no pass to be made they just put it off the boards just outside their blue line, no stretch passes (I'm looking at you Gardiner), and shot blocking (from most of their players).

This is what we should expect, and this is what I'd like on my leaf team. This is what those teams of the 90's had, and this is what we don't have at all.

If our team going forward is:

Rielly Hainsey
Gardiner Zaitsev
Dermott Polak

We will never win a playoff series.

I really don't buy that a good #2 RHD is going to make all the difference.

When comparing VGK, WSH, and the 90's leafs I would say we could use 3 more defensemen.

Funny, when I look at your list I see one glaring issue. No matter how "tough" these guys were, they still couldn't manage to carry the leafs to the finals. Maybe the team needs to try different approach, since that has yet to work? I mean, we all know a famous definition of insanity right?

 

[drewjenks]

How many games do we have to see our D bailed out by or goalie, or our scoring talent (forwards)?

• Pretty much all of them.

How many playoff series do we have to lose?

• As many as they play in, as long as Gardiner is playing big minutes

Why hang on so long to all the wrong parts?

• We fall for it. We pay and we watch and they cash in.

You can't just come in year after year and blame the 5th and 6th D for TOR's woes. We need some fresh eyes and a serious long look at our defense.

• Sky is blue.

Are we missing just 1 guy?

• No, more than that. Obviously need more than just one capable defenseman. Even Hainsey is a #3 or #4, at best, on a decent team. Need more physicality up front.

Will Liljegren be the answer?

• No. One guy is never the answer.

No. We might still be missing 3 or 4 D.

• Correct

We have to take some risks here.

• Calculated risks, not gunslinger Brian Burke type of risks.

Yes that means possibly parting with Jake or Morgan!

• Parting with Morgan will set them back even further. Exact opposite sentiment for Jake. I've felt that way about Jake for a long time. Loved him when he was a rookie, but it's been downhill ever since. He suffered a concussion in the minors after his rookie season and I've always wondered if that messed his game up. Sure he can rush up the ice with the best of them and can make magical offensive plays every now and again. But the overall body of work, especially his slow down in his own zone to wait and make a hail mary stretch pass is not a sustainable style of play to win, especially in the playoffs. Yet the coach still continues to give him top pairing minutes.

The D is not working!

• Fire is hot.

​

I think it only takes 2 additions to completely change the defense.

1) Sign DeHaan to a 4-6 year deal worth around $4,000,000.
2) Trade for a low-cost + long-term RD like Pesce, Manson, Parayko, etc.
*Gardiner + Carrick can be part of the package (or sold for picks - then packaged).

EXAMPLE 1

Rielly - Parayko
DeHaan - Zaitsev
Dermott - Hainsey
------------------
Borgman - Holl
Rosen - Ozhiganov
Nielsen - Liljegren
Gordeev - Rasanen
Middleton - Mattinen

EXAMPLE 2

Rielly - Parayko
Dermott - DeHaan
Hainsey - Zaitsev
-------------------
Borgman - Holl
Rosen - Ozhiganov
Nielsen - Liljegren
Gordeev - Rasanen
Middleton - Mattinen

That D-Core only costs $22,000,000 - which is pretty darn cheap.

We could even move Zaitsev + Hainsey after a year or two. Borgman + (Holl/Ozhiganov/Liljegren) might be upgrades by then & they'll only cost about $1,000,000 each for the next 3-5 years.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

I think it only takes 2 additions to completely change the defense.

1) Sign DeHaan to a 4-6 year deal worth around $4,000,000.
2) Trade for a low-cost + long-term RD like Pesce, Manson, Parayko, etc.
*Gardiner + Carrick can be part of the package (or sold for picks - then packaged).

EXAMPLE 1

Rielly - Parayko
DeHaan - Zaitsev
Dermott - Hainsey
------------------
Borgman - Holl
Rosen - Ozhiganov
Nielsen - Liljegren
Gordeev - Rasanen
Middleton - Mattinen

EXAMPLE 2

Rielly - Parayko
Dermott - DeHaan
Hainsey - Zaitsev
-------------------
Borgman - Holl
Rosen - Ozhiganov
Nielsen - Liljegren
Gordeev - Rasanen
Middleton - Mattinen

That D-Core only costs $22,000,000 - which is pretty darn cheap.

We could even move Zaitsev + Hainsey after a year or two. Borgman + (Holl/Ozhiganov/Liljegren) might be upgrades by then & they'll only cost about $1,000,000 each for the next 3-5 years.

I'm pretty sure I saw some islanders fans say De Haan has a long history of shoulder injuries including surgery and a quick Google seems to confirm that. I would tread very lightly in giving him a long term contract.

 

[Boutette]

I'm curious if anyone knows what kind of player Pateryn is now? Could he be a useful stopgap until Liljigren is ready? Say a younger, slight upgrade on Polak? Apparently he started well in Dallas but was overplayed and tired out according to some postings. With fewer minutes he might be able to play an effective secondary shutdown role and give Hainsey a bit of a rest while doing so perhaps?