Confirmed Trade: [TOR/LAK] Kyle Clifford (@ 50%), Jack Campbell for Trevor Moore, 2020 and cond. 2021 3rd round picks

[Liferleafer]

Not only have I SEEN him, I actually PLAYED with him with the Reign.

Great guy on and off the ice, mediocre goalie

Mediocre is an upgrade here...that's the point.

 

[Liferleafer]

What are we even arguing about. I think it’s a solid trade both teams. No one overpaid. Value was great

Get this man a cookie!!!

 

[theIceWookie]

Cripple is a very strong word.

Yeah, the Leafs might be able to take those 6th and 7th rounders and come up with a few gems that help them in 4-5 years.... but the Leafs window to win is in the next 4-5 years. Furthermore, with these picks tend to hold very little trade value/ currency until they actually make the NHL.

The problem is -- assuming the Leafs are able to get the defenceman they need, it's likely going to be another top 90 pick in the next 2 years included as part of the package, and Toronto will have very little draft currency to supplement future needs.

Many teams have shown this is possible, so I don't buy your argument that it's a big issue. And part of your argument rests on a 5-6 period, but that's not the full goal. The full goal is a consistent contender much longer than 5-6 years. That's what is being built, and the draft capital you're writing off is necessary in that. Look at the players I just talked about, they all matter to the team right now and they came from years ago. There will be more from the draft between those. The point of signing our core was so we can continue with this, by using low round players and signings (like Moore, Mikheyev, etc) to fill in the gaps around them. The hard part has been found.

You're also assuming a cost, which is problematic. There are multiple ways to fill that need, not every one will use a pick.

Within our system we have Sandin and Liljegren who WILL help to fill that issue. So that's the first and most likely scenario.

UFA's are the next one.

Then come trades. But within that we have other pieces we can use outside those picks. Johnsson, Kapanen, other roster players with talent who are more periphery players. And then picks.

Beyond that though, you're being overly dramatic about losing picks. Dubas has already shown he can find players with restricted picks. Robertson as a second rounder shows that. So does virtually every pick this past draft. Obviously time will determine the true value, but the first fruits are good so far.

Plus in the next two years, we're only missing one of current four picks in the first and second round. Could be two with the Campbell trade (but that would be a good thing). Third round picks are not actually all that valuable given the data we have on drafting, so griping about it seems silly. Especially since they fit that same timeline you talked about not needing to worry about (they'll be ready no sooner than four years likely). In the next two years, we actually aren't missing picks in quantity.

All told, it's not worth worrying about yet.

I don't buy that. That's what Matt Martin did, and it really wasn't effective simply because, he couldn't play enough. A low-skill guy who goes out and plugs 8 minutes away isn't going to inspire the far more skilled players on the team to do it, and to be perfectly honest, some of those guys shouldn't even be doing it. We needed a guy that goes out there and plays gritty 15-16 minutes a night.

Well we'll disagree on that. I don't think adding a few more minutes to a so called "gritty" player will make much difference. But that probably comes down to our understanding of grit. We are not, nor will we ever (with this current core) be that kind of team. The grit we need is the idea that we fight through adversity, fight against obstacles and keep moving forward. Not face punching bs.

That's why Clifford will help. Having that voice in the room is a factor that will help. It might be small, and maybe won't do much, but don't discount a good leader in being added to a room. Hockey is a sport but it is not all that disimilar from a work environemnt. And voices like that are INVALUABLE in a work place.

 

[habsrule22]

100% agreed. If dubas gives Dermott anything even close to $2 - $3 million he should be investigated as a possible insurgent sent in from the NHLPA to grossly raise players salaries, especially after his recent RFA fiascos

He just signed Holl for 2 m a season and Dermott plays more so take it from there

 

[NiL8r87]

100% agreed. If dubas gives Dermott anything even close to $2 - $3 million he should be investigated as a possible insurgent sent in from the NHLPA to grossly raise players salaries, especially after his recent RFA fiascos

Rasmus Andersson just got 4...

 

[GirardSpinorama]

This is a good trade for the Leafs. Both Clifford and Campbell are pieces they need right now. Trevor Moore is a JAG, nothing more. Clifford at least fills a role. The picks are overpayments, but that happens when you have injuries and are desperate.

 

[shortfuze]

What are we even arguing about. I think it’s a solid trade both teams. No one overpaid. Value was great

Don’t be silly. Around here, Toronto always over pays. They overpay in contracts, trades and somehow I’m sure they over pay at the draft.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

They absolutely did and that's my point, this idea that they paid this significant price just isn't true especially since if you look ahead to 2020-2021 now you got Andersen and Campbell in net for this year and next, Hutch legitimately cost Toronto 8-12 points in the standings this year.

That won't happen again next year with Campbell in net.

Dubas cost the leafs 8-12 points by having Hutch in net. This is a good trade that should have happened MONTHs ago.

 

[Legion34]

Rasmus Andersson just got 4...

so if “overpay dubas” signs him for less it’s a good deal right?

 

[Liferleafer]

Don’t be silly. Around here, Toronto always over pays. They overpay in contracts, trades and somehow I’m sure they over pay at the draft.

I heard they way overpaid the golf course they held the teams charity event at in the summer.

 

[seanlinden]

Many teams have shown this is possible, so I don't buy your argument that it's a big issue. And part of your argument rests on a 5-6 period, but that's not the full goal. The full goal is a consistent contender much longer than 5-6 years. That's what is being built, and the draft capital you're writing off is necessary in that. Look at the players I just talked about, they all matter to the team right now and they came from years ago. There will be more from the draft between those. The point of signing our core was so we can continue with this, by using low round players and signings (like Moore, Mikheyev, etc) to fill in the gaps around them. The hard part has been found.

You're also assuming a cost, which is problematic. There are multiple ways to fill that need, not every one will use a pick.

Within our system we have Sandin and Liljegren who WILL help to fill that issue. So that's the first and most likely scenario.

UFA's are the next one.

Then come trades. But within that we have other pieces we can use outside those picks. Johnsson, Kapanen, other roster players with talent who are more periphery players. And then picks.

Beyond that though, you're being overly dramatic about losing picks. Dubas has already shown he can find players with restricted picks. Robertson as a second rounder shows that. So does virtually every pick this past draft. Obviously time will determine the true value, but the first fruits are good so far.

Plus in the next two years, we're only missing one of current four picks in the first and second round. Could be two with the Campbell trade (but that would be a good thing). Third round picks are not actually all that valuable given the data we have on drafting, so griping about it seems silly. Especially since they fit that same timeline you talked about not needing to worry about (they'll be ready no sooner than four years likely). In the next two years, we actually aren't missing picks in quantity.

All told, it's not worth worrying about yet.

Nobody is debating whether its possible to acquire NHL players in the later rounds.

What I'm saying is that every contending team generally has deadline needs -- draft picks and former high draft picks tend to be the general currency used for them. In the next 2 years, we are missing 3 out of 6 top 90 picks. Add the defenceman that we now (desparately) need, and it'll be 4 of 6.

Well we'll disagree on that. I don't think adding a few more minutes to a so called "gritty" player will make much difference. But that probably comes down to our understanding of grit. We are not, nor will we ever (with this current core) be that kind of team. The grit we need is the idea that we fight through adversity, fight against obstacles and keep moving forward. Not face punching bs.

That's why Clifford will help. Having that voice in the room is a factor that will help. It might be small, and maybe won't do much, but don't discount a good leader in being added to a room. Hockey is a sport but it is not all that disimilar from a work environemnt. And voices like that are INVALUABLE in a work place.

Correct, we need guys who can fight through adversity and play in our top 9, not face punchers. Clifford may not be a face puncher, but he's also not a guy that can play in our top 9.

 

[Blowfish]

Honest question, have you EVER watched Campbell play a game?

probably not. He hasn’t played all that much nhl career

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Dubas cost the leafs 8-12 points by having Hutch in net. This is a good trade that should have happened MONTHs ago.

100% agree should have been done at the draft

 

[Blowfish]

Dubas cost the leafs 8-12 points by having Hutch in net. This is a good trade that should have happened MONTHs ago.

i believe andersson has wry similar stats as hutch.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Good deal for LA in my opinion. That conditional 3rd has a pretty good chance to upgrade to a 2nd, + 3rd and Trevor Moore who is a decent young player.

Not sure how much more you can expect to get for an impending UFA 4th liner and average backup goaltender.

 

[Liferleafer]

Nobody is debating whether its possible to acquire NHL players in the later rounds.

What I'm saying is that every contending team generally has deadline needs -- draft picks and former high draft picks tend to be the general currency used for them. In the next 2 years, we are missing 3 out of 6 top 90 picks. Add the defenceman that we now (desparately) need, and it'll be 4 of 6.



Correct, we need guys who can fight through adversity and play in our top 9, not face punchers. Clifford may not be a face puncher, but he's also not a guy that can play in our top 9.

I am willing to bet he will be tried there.

 

[KingCanadain1976]

I am willing to bet he will be tried there.

best new I have read from a leaf fan in years. He has had shifts with carter and kopitar and looked good but rarely a full game and never really long enough for chemistry to develop I have always said he had the talent to move up the lineup but never really had opportunity

 

[shortfuze]

Dubas cost the leafs 8-12 points by having Hutch in net. This is a good trade that should have happened MONTHs ago.

and what if LA didnt want to do the trade months ago?

 

[Liferleafer]

best new I have read from a leaf fan in years. He has had shifts with carter and kopitar and looked good but rarely a full game and never really long enough for chemistry to develop I have always said he had the talent to move up the lineup but never really had opportunity

I have a sneaky suspicion that he will be tried with Tavares and Nylander...kind of that line's Hyman.

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

I don't love it for LA. I think LA would have been better off buying out Quick this offseason and rolling with Campbell / Peterson next year. Now if they buy out Quick they need to sign a veteran, which is not a huge deal, but I thought they liked Campbell and thought he could potentially be more than a backup. He had a sv% of .928 last year which is why they gave him that deal.

A 2nd an a 3rd is nice return but LA really should get out from Quick this offseason and doesn't need more picks really.

 

[Cotton]

Correct, we need guys who can fight through adversity and play in our top 9, not face punchers. Clifford may not be a face puncher, but he's also not a guy that can play in our top 9.

This explains why a guy like Clifford is needed.


He punches some face when necessary.

 

[TheDoldrums]

People calling Clifford a facepuncher are really minimizing his impact. He's had really strong underlying metrics for awhile now



The Leafs weren't going to acquire a plug just because he has grit. Clifford can play.

 

[Reaper45]

This explains why a guy like Clifford is needed.


He punches some face when necessary.

At least show his best fight.

 

[KingCanadain1976]

I have a sneaky suspicion that he will be tried with Tavares and Nylander...kind of that line's Hyman.

Well leafer my friend u have a bandwagon fan in me watching the rest of the season In hope Campbell and Clifford can get u guys into the playoff Hell even then i may continue to root for them to get a cup I am probably one of the bg red dogs biggest fans so im along for the ride for sure

 

[redcard]

I don't love it for LA. I think LA would have been better off buying out Quick this offseason and rolling with Campbell / Peterson next year. Now if they buy out Quick they need to sign a veteran, which is not a huge deal, but I thought they liked Campbell and thought he could potentially be more than a backup. He had a sv% of .928 last year which is why they gave him that deal.

A 2nd an a 3rd is nice return but LA really should get out from Quick this offseason and doesn't need more picks really.

LA doesn't need to get out from Quick. LA is where they are in the standings largely because they traded a lot of high picks from 2011-2016 in order to win the cups and try to stay competitive, and they drafted relatively poorly with the picks kept in that time. As a result, LA's crop of 22-26 year olds is quite weak, meaning there aren't really any significant RFA raises due over the next few years. The strength of the prospect pool is from all the high picks and stockpiled draft picks from 2017-2019 (and soon to be 2020). All these 20 and under players have ELCs that keep sliding.

The point being, LA has 5 mil in cap space now, will likely shed a few more vets by the deadline, but won't have any significant need for Cap space until Turcotte, Vilardi, Kupari et. al. reach RFA. At which point Brown and Carter's contracts will have expired. Its better to keep absorbing Quick's cap hit now when we have no need for space than to buy him out and extend the liability.