Confirmed with Link: [TOR/COL] Nazem Kadri, Calle Rosen for Tyson Barrie (50% retain), Alex Kerfoot trade (continued)

[Its not your fault]

I personally find a lot of his moves to be strange.

He acquired Muzzin and Barrie at a cost of Kadri, Rosen, Gardiner, a 1st and two 2nds.

Given that we likely can't sign both long term, that seems like a hefty price for two playoff runs. Especially since one of those runs is already behind us and was wildly unsuccessful. Obviously his valuation of the roster and its potential was off.

We could have kept Gardiner long term for the cap hit of Muzzin short term. So then are the rest of those assets worth a one year Barrie rental plus Kerfoot. It seems really steep to me.

Especially when the GM was touted as this genius when it came to asset management. Personally I haven't seen it.

Been awhile since you have seen what championship challenging teams do. Those won't hurt us.

 

[The CyNick]

Been awhile since you have seen what championship challenging teams do. Those won't hurt us.

Draft schmaft hurt us for like 15 years. My hope is we don't go back to that while spinning our wheels as a first round exit team.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Draft schmaft hurt us for like 15 years. My hope is we don't go back to that while spinning our wheels as a first round exit team.

We've been drafting and developing very well plus doing decently on free wallets. Keep that up and you can trade your lower pieces for actual NHLers.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

No I cannot. That is what they said about him last season.

What did they say? That he wouldn't be locked down to a 40 year old fringe NHL player on his line?

 

[The CyNick]

We've been drafting and developing very well plus doing decently on free wallets. Keep that up and you can trade your lower pieces for actual NHLers.

Or keep getting free wallets, use your picks to draft well and keep a steady stream of quality young, cheap players coming in. Instead of bringing in established middle of the road players who walk after they demand more money than you can afford.

Said another way, the current regime thought Sean Durzi was worth using a 2nd round pick. In theory that means they thought he had strong NHL potential. If they were right, by the time Muzzin has walked, that player will be breaking into the NHL. But they will be doing so at $925k. That's the type of player we need. High upside and cheap.

Muzzin's spot could be filled by Gardiner for the same money and you still have three assets making their way through the system.

There's logic in trading young assets or picks, but only if you turn them into difference makers. So far Muzzin hasn't been a difference maker.

 

[Boutette]

I'd rather have Gardiner and the other assets. Anyone can have a couple bad games. I believe Gardiner brings more to the table and is better suited for the style of play we like.

As someone said when talking Kadri and Kerfoot, Gardiner currently has more points and a better giveaway takeaway ratio than Muzzin. His team is also perfect, and we've lost half our games. Small sample size no doubt, but I don't think Muzzin is clearly the better player. And most certainly the gap between the two is not a 1st and two very good prospects.

Just to clarify things, Gardiner has one more point than Muzzin so far, Kerfoot has 3 more points than Kadri so far. And even I can see that the difference between the Leafs starting 2-1-1 and Carolina 4-0 is just as much luck as anything else ana really have had nothing to do with Muzzin. Carolina has won 3 one goal games and Toronto's losses have been by one goal. Could just as easily be the reverse and Carolina is just as likely to be a bubble team at the end of the year as they were last year. Gardiner is also 12mil more in cap than Muzzin over the next 4 years. And that is not to be ignored. And those 3 assets of which you speak are question marks of whether or note they are even as good as the assets we still have.

 

[The CyNick]

Just to clarify things, Gardiner has one more point than Muzzin so far, Kerfoot has 3 more points than Kadri so far. And even I can see that the difference between the Leafs starting 2-1-1 and Carolina 4-0 is just as much luck as anything else ana really have had nothing to do with Muzzin. Carolina has won 3 one goal games and Toronto's losses have been by one goal. Could just as easily be the reverse and Carolina is just as likely to be a bubble team at the end of the year as they were last year. Gardiner is also 12mil more in cap than Muzzin over the next 4 years. And that is not to be ignored. And those 3 assets of which you speak are question marks of whether or note they are even as good as the assets we still have.

Just to note, I wasn't bringing up player points 4 games into the season. Another contributor mentioned Kerfoot having more points than Kadri, so I brought up Gardiner. I don't think any stats 4 games into a season are all that relevant.

But over the course of the season, I don't think Muzzin is much if at all better than Gardiner. We had both guys last season and they couldn't get us past Boston. Although to be fair, Gardiner was crippled and Muzzin was fully healthy.

For me, I would prefer Gardiner long term at a reasonable number plus 3 young assets over Muzzin for one more playoff run or Muzzin long term at what will likely be a number hard to swallow.

There's also now the issue that if you keep Muzzin long term, it's likely impossible to keep Barrie long term, and he cost us one of the best value centers in the league.

Again this is why I find the series of moves to be very odd and not well thought out.

 

[BertCorbeau]

There's an opportunity cost. Going for 'it' now versus staying patient. If the Leafs stay patient and wait for prospects to develop, they realistically are not be ready for another few years. So what do you do in the interim? Just ride out the roster with stop gaps. All of a sudden there's the perception that you've wasted some prime years with your offensive superstars. By the time those prospects mature into quality NHLers, it's even longer and your window to win could be limited to 1-2 years.

Getting Muzzin for two playoff runs plus a full season is reasonable given the price paid. Using the centre depth of the Leafs to not only bolster a large position of need for a year but also find a capable replacement player for multiple season is also quite reasonable.

Also keep in mind, long term, that the Leafs kept their best assets that can step in as early as next year to contribute.

The only strain then is to ensure that the Leafs hit on their later round picks. Robertson is quite promising right now and while the Leafs don't have a first in 2020, they still have 11 draft picks. Lots of long shots but quality scouting and drafting can go a long way which is part of the organization's plan.

 

[Boutette]

Just to note, I wasn't bringing up player points 4 games into the season. Another contributor mentioned Kerfoot having more points than Kadri, so I brought up Gardiner. I don't think any stats 4 games into a season are all that relevant.

But over the course of the season, I don't think Muzzin is much if at all better than Gardiner. We had both guys last season and they couldn't get us past Boston. Although to be fair, Gardiner was crippled and Muzzin was fully healthy.

For me, I would prefer Gardiner long term at a reasonable number plus 3 young assets over Muzzin for one more playoff run or Muzzin long term at what will likely be a number hard to swallow.

There's also now the issue that if you keep Muzzin long term, it's likely impossible to keep Barrie long term, and he cost us one of the best value centers in the league.

Again this is why I find the series of moves to be very odd and not well thought out.

Kadri managing around 40+ points a season is no longer any great value nor is he complimentary with the likes of Moore/Micheyev/Kapanen on his wings because he would not pass his line mates the puck last year, and wouldn't pass them the puck going forwards. Gardiner as well, with a bad back, might not be either. The people running the org sees what we need, what we have and what we can get. Will the three prospects LA got pan out, maybe, maybe not. But just about every team that is a contender makes the deals Toronto did. But, on the plus side, something like the Muzzin trade is no likely to happen this year.

 

[TDotMassive]

I personally find a lot of his moves to be strange.

He acquired Muzzin and Barrie at a cost of Kadri, Rosen, Gardiner, a 1st and two 2nds.

Given that we likely can't sign both long term, that seems like a hefty price for two playoff runs. Especially since one of those runs is already behind us and was wildly unsuccessful. Obviously his valuation of the roster and its potential was off.

We could have kept Gardiner long term for the cap hit of Muzzin short term. So then are the rest of those assets worth a one year Barrie rental plus Kerfoot. It seems really steep to me.

Especially when the GM was touted as this genius when it came to asset management. Personally I haven't seen it.

In case you haven't noticed, Muzzin is BY FAR a superior D to Gardiner. You don't win cups with guys that crap themselves under pressure repeatedly. Muzzin is the only physical element on the team, and on most nights our most reliable D. Good chance we can resign him at $4-5m next year... I would WAY rather Muzzin over Gardiner.

 

[ottomaddox]

What did they say? That he wouldn't be locked down to a 40 year old fringe NHL player on his line?

That he would dominate every third line C in the National Hockey League.

 

[kb]

That he would dominate every third line C in the National Hockey League.

Yup. And it didn't happen.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Or keep getting free wallets, use your picks to draft well and keep a steady stream of quality young, cheap players coming in. Instead of bringing in established middle of the road players who walk after they demand more money than you can afford.

Said another way, the current regime thought Sean Durzi was worth using a 2nd round pick. In theory that means they thought he had strong NHL potential. If they were right, by the time Muzzin has walked, that player will be breaking into the NHL. But they will be doing so at $925k. That's the type of player we need. High upside and cheap.

Muzzin's spot could be filled by Gardiner for the same money and you still have three assets making their way through the system.

There's logic in trading young assets or picks, but only if you turn them into difference makers. So far Muzzin hasn't been a difference maker.

Gardiner wasn't a difference maker and Durzi was at best third on our ELC d list.

 

[The CyNick]

In case you haven't noticed, Muzzin is BY FAR a superior D to Gardiner. You don't win cups with guys that crap themselves under pressure repeatedly. Muzzin is the only physical element on the team, and on most nights our most reliable D. Good chance we can resign him at $4-5m next year... I would WAY rather Muzzin over Gardiner.

Kadri is more physical than Kerfoot.

 

[TDotMassive]

Or keep getting free wallets, use your picks to draft well and keep a steady stream of quality young, cheap players coming in. Instead of bringing in established middle of the road players who walk after they demand more money than you can afford.

Said another way, the current regime thought Sean Durzi was worth using a 2nd round pick. In theory that means they thought he had strong NHL potential. If they were right, by the time Muzzin has walked, that player will be breaking into the NHL. But they will be doing so at $925k. That's the type of player we need. High upside and cheap.

Muzzin's spot could be filled by Gardiner for the same money and you still have three assets making their way through the system.

There's logic in trading young assets or picks, but only if you turn them into difference makers. So far Muzzin hasn't been a difference maker.

Bro, Gardiner isn't half the D Muzzin is... are you watching the games? Muzzin is our best D in the D-zone most night, he's the only Leaf that can consistently hit hard and intimidate the opposition, he eats top-line minutes for lunch, shuts down opposing top lines, and makes crisp first passes to move the puck out of the D-zone with possession... what more could you want from a player? He may not rush down the ice and score end-to-end like Gardiner could, but he's heaps better in literally every other aspect of being an NHL defenceman.

 

[kb]

Gardiner wasn't a difference maker and Durzi was at best third on our ELC d list.

I beg to differ. Gardiner was a difference maker during the regular season. Unfortunately, he was also a difference maker in Game 7's. Which is why he is no longer here.

 

[TDotMassive]

Kadri is more physical than Kerfoot.

Completely irrelevant

 

[thewave]

Kadri is more physical than Kerfoot.

Dubas doesn't really seem to care. Kadri made the same mistake twice. If he fought him, all was fine. It was recklessness even if the reffing was horrible. Obviously not a fan of having a rental D core, very dangerous position to be in for a contender.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I beg to differ. Gardiner was a difference maker during the regular season. Unfortunately, he was also a difference maker in Game 7's Which is why he is no longer here.

I'm assuming he's talking playoffs.

 

[kb]

I'm assuming he's talking playoffs.

We've all seen that movie before....

 

[seanlinden]

Just to note, I wasn't bringing up player points 4 games into the season. Another contributor mentioned Kerfoot having more points than Kadri, so I brought up Gardiner. I don't think any stats 4 games into a season are all that relevant.

But over the course of the season, I don't think Muzzin is much if at all better than Gardiner. We had both guys last season and they couldn't get us past Boston. Although to be fair, Gardiner was crippled and Muzzin was fully healthy.

For me, I would prefer Gardiner long term at a reasonable number plus 3 young assets over Muzzin for one more playoff run or Muzzin long term at what will likely be a number hard to swallow.

There's also now the issue that if you keep Muzzin long term, it's likely impossible to keep Barrie long term, and he cost us one of the best value centers in the league.

Again this is why I find the series of moves to be very odd and not well thought out.

Muzzin and Gardiner are completely different types of defencemen. You likely don't even get to Game 7 last year without Jake Muzzin. The Leafs desparately needed a guy who can play heavy in their top 4. Overall, they might be similar calibre defencemen, but the fit is much different.

As for the long term thinking... I think the Leafs were faced with a couple realities.

#1. A group comprised of Rielly, Gardiner, Zaitsev, and Hainsey/replacement was simply not going to get them deep into the playoffs. They needed Muzzin as a physical presence to add to the top 4.

#2. With Muzzin in, they needed a Hainsey replacement, and either a Gardiner replacement or Gardiner back. Barrie is a substantial upgrade on Gardiner, and costs us substantially less this year. At the end of the day, gettting Barrie for 1 year meant downgrading Kadri to Kerfoot for the next 3-4. Is it a great deal? no, but if your focus is on making this team more complete and trying to win a cup, then it's not a bad deal either.

Were there better deals out there? obviously we don't know. Getting Pietrangelo when St. Louis was near the bottom of the league would have been better... but we really haven't seen any defencemen change hands that are objectively better fits than Muzzin or Barrie.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Yup. And it didn't happen.

Kadri was disappointing last year relative to his previous years (IMO last year was his worst year), but I don't hold that totally against Kadri IMO. People underestimate how terrible Marleau was.

 

[kb]

Kadri was disappointing last year relative to his previous years (IMO last year was his worst year), but I don't hold that totally against Kadri IMO. People underestimate how terrible Marleau was.

Neither do I. But here is the thing. Kadri plays best when he is in the spotlight. When your top-2 centers are Matthews and Tavares? You are the third dog to the bowl, the runt of the litter.

It was reflected in his uninspired play. Now add his age into the equation.....

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Neither do I. But here is the thing. Kadri plays best when he is in the spotlight. When your top-2 centers are Matthews and Tavares? You are the third dog to the bowl, the runt of the litter.

It was reflected in his uninspired play. Now add his age into the equation.....

Oh don't get me wrong, Kadri had to go. That trade was amazing for us. Kerfoot fits much better into the 3C position for the usage, he's cost controlled for multiple years, we get a top-pairing RHD who plays our style perfectly (possibly re-sign too).

I'm just speaking out to those who are ready to jump the gun, and say Kerfoot > Kadri or even Kerfoot = Kadri when that's simply not the case. Kadri being tied to a fringe 40 year old NHL player for the whole season is totally different than Kerfoot playing with two energetic wingers who have something to prove (I.e Fight their way into a potential Hyman/Johnsson spot).

 

[The Iceman]

The evaluation is fairly simple IMO

- if he traded Kadri to win now; then he has to go all in and there are no excuses that team in young and other blah blah blah

- if people are saying that we are young; will make mistakes i.e. we are not a true contender; then trading a proven asset for a rental (Barrie) and an inferior player in Kerfoot is absolutely stupid

But am sure Dubas cult will find ways to defend dubas to no end.

Pretty simple math. Team needed a RHD and needed to trade for one. Gave up a high value player that was replaceable in his role with our team.

And had Sakic retain money. Pulled the trigger after a trade with Calgary fell through, so Dubas's second choice.
Timing was perfect as Sakic had just lost the Panarin sweepstakes.
The team would be much weaker with Kadri and no RHD to play with Reilly

Brilliant trade 7 days a week.