Top Ten Offensemen (Offensive D-men)

[mooseOAK*]

And as I said, one season isnt everything...if it were, Jim Carey would be in the Hall of Fame...I guess your willing to ignore 1995-2003, when Zubov beat McCabe for 8 straight seasons...but of course, the most recent fluke season is all that matters to you.

This discussion is about LAST SEASON ONLY!!! LAST SEASON ONLY!!!

Save that other stuff for after they both retire.

 

[Chaos]

This discussion is about LAST SEASON ONLY!!! LAST SEASON ONLY!!!

Save that other stuff for after they both retire.

Who ever said it was about last season only? Judging by that, Shawn McEachern is a better player than Mike Modano

 

[andora]

yeah i love mccabe, and see him play all the time, but zubov is still awesome for a dman, one of those smooth skating super intelligent russian veteran dman...

i'd love zubov on my team, and at this point would still take him over mccabe 10 out of 10 times

 

[mooseOAK*]

Who ever said it was about last season only?

Those of us who started this discussion.

 

[Chaos]

Those of us who started this discussion.

"This" discussion started as a list of offensive defenseman prospects. I was the first one comparing Zubov and McCabe, to which you responded that McCabe is better than Zubov...you NEVER stated it was only this past season. Nice try though.

 

[mooseOAK*]

"This" discussion started as a list of offensive defenseman prospects. I was the first one comparing Zubov and McCabe, to which you responded that McCabe is better than Zubov...you NEVER stated it was only this past season. Nice try though.

I didn't feel I had to say this past season because we were talking about last season before you jumped in.

I have a little bit, not much though, of confidence that sooner or later you will get it if you check out the thread before you jumped in.

 

[Chaos]

I didn't feel I had to say this past season because we were talking about last season before you jumped in.

I have a little bit, not much though, of confidence that sooner or later you will get it if you check out the thread before you jumped in.

Maybe you were talking about last season...but NOT when talking about a comparison between Zubov and McCabe...I have ZERO confidence you will get that.

 

[Juicer]

oh yeah, again could you please back this statement about his stock going down? how did you mean it? stock around the league for trade value? (which doesn't matter since he won't be traded anytime soon)

I meant he was considered a better prospect last year than he is now. He could not crack a poor defense last year, and could have been called up at any time, unlike the year before where he played as many NHL games. He was beaten out by Kondratiev at the beginning of the year, who is the same age as he is. Using the Jackman not being eligible to be sent down is a weak excuse, since he was shipped of for a scrub in Berehowsky. They could have used him over Pilar(who strugggled) at any time. They then went dragged a retired and washed up Johansson out of retirement so they would have to use him in the post season.

or did you mean stock within the organization? (which again is wrong since he's their number one prospect and ready to make the jump full time as soon as the leafs can fit him in?

please.. explain..

Well, lets be honest, he only has Steen to compete with, and I think Steen might have moved past him. He did rank ahead of him in the HF top 50 this year, I am pretty sure Carlo went down on the list.

So that is what I meant. I like Carlo's offensive aggressiveness, but IMO his stock has fallen from where it was last year.

 

[andora]

I meant he was considered a better prospect last year than he is now.

may be true, but imo that's just because of all the little hype mongers drooling over the past draft, every draft that goes by former top prospects get shuffled around.. it doesn't take away from how good they actually are, their name just moves around in lists that accomadates the new flavor of the week

He could not crack a poor defense last year, and could have been called up at any time, unlike the year before where he played as many NHL games.

i really think this has more to do with the organization wanting him to work on his all around game first and foremost, rather than just come up and run with the puck.. this choice was a success as he played very well to the end of last season and was working on his defence all year. the few games i saw last year the commentators were discussing how carlo has worked hard on his two way game, etc.. etc..

also, could carlo not making it maybe be also due to the fact that for what he is, an offensive minded blueliner, he might be a bit redundant with mccabe, kaberle, and even maybe pilar and jackman *at the time* leafs for awhile have need big defensive bruising bodies first, and carlo at the time wasn't that...

He was beaten out by Kondratiev at the beginning of the year, who is the same age as he is.

kondratiev was also viewed going into that training camp as more of a stay at home defensive defenceman rather than offensive. he showed some offense over here in n.a., but he was drafted as and expected to play as an efficient defensive dman (which did not happen, as he was not very good imo)

Using the Jackman not being eligible to be sent down is a weak excuse, since he was shipped of for a scrub in Berehowsky.

well first off, the trade is irrelevant in this case, period. AT TRAINING CAMP and the beginning of the year, this is true, the leafs did not want to simply lose jackman and the potential he had, thus being forced to be kept up as a 5/6/7 guy...

They could have used him over Pilar(who strugggled) at any time. They then went dragged a retired and washed up Johansson out of retirement so they would have to use him in the post season.

god forbid a contender acquiring a veteran for depth for the playoff push rather than throwing a rookie in there.. what were they thinking ..


i understand your line of thinking, i just don't think it's warranted compared to what's actually been going on with carlo and his development as well as the leafs' situation on defense

 

[leafaholix*]

I meant he was considered a better prospect last year than he is now. He could not crack a poor defense last year, and could have been called up at any time, unlike the year before where he played as many NHL games. He was beaten out by Kondratiev at the beginning of the year, who is the same age as he is. Using the Jackman not being eligible to be sent down is a weak excuse, since he was shipped of for a scrub in Berehowsky. They could have used him over Pilar(who strugggled) at any time. They then went dragged a retired and washed up Johansson out of retirement so they would have to use him in the post season.

Colaiacovo was injured for the majority of the 2003/04 camp with a knee injury.

Well, lets be honest, he only has Steen to compete with, and I think Steen might have moved past him. He did rank ahead of him in the HF top 50 this year, I am pretty sure Carlo went down on the list.

So that is what I meant. I like Carlo's offensive aggressiveness, but IMO his stock has fallen from where it was last year.

Carlo went down? He just came off an all-star season in the AHL (as a rookie).

 

[mooseOAK*]

There was never any intention to have Colaiacovo be on the Leafs rosterlast year, therefore he wasn't beaten out by anyone.

 

[Juicer]

may be true, but imo that's just because of all the little hype mongers drooling over the past draft, every draft that goes by former top prospects get shuffled around.. it doesn't take away from how good they actually are, their name just moves around in lists that accomadates the new flavor of the week

Well this year was not the best draft ever by any stretch of the imagination, but it did have its share of good prospects on defense. I understand what you are saying though, and I agree to some extent about people getting all excited with the newer players.

i really think this has more to do with the organization wanting him to work on his all around game first and foremost, rather than just come up and run with the puck.. this choice was a success as he played very well to the end of last season and was working on his defence all year. the few games i saw last year the commentators were discussing how carlo has worked hard on his two way game, etc.. etc..

I think that would be true with most prospects. If his two-way game was lacking, that is where he would try to improve. I don't think he has done enough to build his strength and their seems to be a lot of question about his ability to handle players in front of his net and in the corners. That is a scary thought when they already have Kaberle.

also, could carlo not making it maybe be also due to the fact that for what he is, an offensive minded blueliner, he might be a bit redundant with mccabe, kaberle, and even maybe pilar and jackman *at the time* leafs for awhile have need big defensive bruising bodies first, and carlo at the time wasn't that...

Then your point about him not being traded might not be true since Kaberle, McCabe, Pilar and now Leetch are all signed and ready to go if a season starts. That would leave him playing another year in the AHL.

kondratiev was also viewed going into that training camp as more of a stay at home defensive defenceman rather than offensive. he showed some offense over here in n.a., but he was drafted as and expected to play as an efficient defensive dman (which did not happen, as he was not very good imo)

But he was still considered a long shot when camp opened, whereas Carlo was looked at a having at least a 50/50 chance.

well first off, the trade is irrelevant in this case, period. AT TRAINING CAMP and the beginning of the year, this is true, the leafs did not want to simply lose jackman and the potential he had, thus being forced to be kept up as a 5/6/7 guy...

I don't see it as being irrelevant. For one, he was traded for another Dman that played over Carlo, and on top of that, Carlo was not picked because he was not ready.

god forbid a contender acquiring a veteran for depth for the playoff push rather than throwing a rookie in there.. what were they thinking ..

There is a big difference between them getting a Leetch, than dragging a guy out of retiring and spending a boat load on him for insurance.

i understand your line of thinking, i just don't think it's warranted compared to what's actually been going on with carlo and his development as well as the leafs' situation on defense

I want to say again that I like Carlo, and I like his game for the most part. Him not playing at this point in his career, is not a career disaster or anything like that. I do think he was considered a better prospect last year, and that is why I said his stock has dropped. My original point was that when a leaf prospect is not considered one of the best, everyone is prejudice against them,(not saying you did this) which is rediculous.

 

[Juicer]

There was never any intention to have Colaiacovo be on the Leafs rosterlast year, therefore he wasn't beaten out by anyone.

What is your source saying they had no intention of playing him? Did they intend on playing Kondratiev? I don't think so.

 

[mooseOAK*]

What is your source saying they had no intention of playing him? Did they intend on playing Kondratiev? I don't think so.

No source needed, they had a full roster of defencemen before training camp started. Kondratiev was given a look-see and sent down, probably because they hadn't seen much of him compared to Carlo.

I do think he was considered a better prospect last year, and that is why I said his stock has dropped.

Fill us in what he did wrong over the course of the year.

 

[leafaholix*]

I think that would be true with most prospects. If his two-way game was lacking, that is where he would try to improve. I don't think he has done enough to build his strength and their seems to be a lot of question about his ability to handle players in front of his net and in the corners. That is a scary thought when they already have Kaberle.

You obviously haven't seen him play much when you're comparing his physical game to Kaberle. From all reports and from the 10 or so games I saw last year, he's not a very big guy but he knows how to hit hard and is pretty strong along the boards.

Then your point about him not being traded might not be true since Kaberle, McCabe, Pilar and now Leetch are all signed and ready to go if a season starts. That would leave him playing another year in the AHL.

You forgot the most important player in Carlo's way, Aki Berg. He's the #5/6 guy and the Leafs would likely want Carlo playing with a more consistent veteran defenseman to start off on the third pairing. If Berg can play the same hockey he did in the first half of last season, he'd be the #4 and Klee would be #5, which would make it easier to have Colaiacovo in the lineup.

But he was still considered a long shot when camp opened, whereas Carlo was looked at a having at least a 50/50 chance.

As I said, Carlo was out for the majority of the preseason and camp.

I don't see it as being irrelevant. For one, he was traded for another Dman that played over Carlo, and on top of that, Carlo was not picked because he was not ready.

The Leafs were under no pressure to play a 21 year old rookie, so they dealt a horrendous defenseman in Jackman for depth, a #8/9 guy (behind Pilar, Belak, Johansson). The Leafs could have had Karl Dykhuis on the blue line, I'm not sure they would have brought up their bluechipper, so it really doesn't matter who was on the roster for Toronto.

I want to say again that I like Carlo, and I like his game for the most part. Him not playing at this point in his career, is not a career disaster or anything like that. I do think he was considered a better prospect last year, and that is why I said his stock has dropped. My original point was that when a leaf prospect is not considered one of the best, everyone is prejudice against them,(not saying you did this) which is rediculous.

I'm not sure how you're quanitifying how much "better" he was last season. You mean by hype by Leaf fans? Yes, we're still very excited about him, but I think most Leaf fans realize that rushing prospects is unwise. The Toronto Maple Leafs have a history of waiting on their prospects (Ponikarovsky, Steen, Colaiacovo, Tellqvist, Boyes, etc.), not rushing them into the NHL unless they have proven they could potential contribute early on (Antropov, Stajan, Kaberle, etc.).

 

[Juicer]

You obviously haven't seen him play much when you're comparing his physical game to Kaberle. From all reports and from the 10 or so games I saw last year, he's not a very big guy but he knows how to hit hard and is pretty strong along the boards.

Apparently you have a different opinion from your "10 or so games" than JFJ has of his numerous games and reports from the leafs brass.

"He is an excellent skater, handles the puck well and makes excellent decisions at the offensive blue line. Clearly, what we are focussing on is his game from our net out, especially down low in our own zone.

"Keeping pucks out of our net is a big thing." -JFJ

You forgot the most important player in Carlo's way, Aki Berg. He's the #5/6 guy and the Leafs would likely want Carlo playing with a more consistent veteran defenseman to start off on the third pairing. If Berg can play the same hockey he did in the first half of last season, he'd be the #4 and Klee would be #5, which would make it easier to have Colaiacovo in the lineup.

Berg has had a 30 game stretch at best showing he can play that way, but the rest of his career has been a major disappointment. Really there is no indication that he will ever be able to do that. He was a healthy scratch at least once inthe playoffs.

As I said, Carlo was out for the majority of the preseason and camp.

The majority of training camp is not even close to being true. He "tweaked" his groin on the 13th, and played an exhibition game on the 23rd. He did NOT miss the "majority' of training camp and preseason. That is a gross overstatement.

The Leafs were under no pressure to play a 21 year old rookie, so they dealt a horrendous defenseman in Jackman for depth, a #8/9 guy (behind Pilar, Belak, Johansson). The Leafs could have had Karl Dykhuis on the blue line, I'm not sure they would have brought up their bluechipper, so it really doesn't matter who was on the roster for Toronto.

As I said, it is not a disaster they didn't bring him up. The fact they felt the need to get these guys indicates they really were against playing him though.

I'm not sure how you're quanitifying how much "better" he was last season. You mean by hype by Leaf fans? Yes, we're still very excited about him, but I think most Leaf fans realize that rushing prospects is unwise. The Toronto Maple Leafs have a history of waiting on their prospects (Ponikarovsky, Steen, Colaiacovo, Tellqvist, Boyes, etc.), not rushing them into the NHL unless they have proven they could potential contribute early on (Antropov, Stajan, Kaberle, etc.).

That list makes no sense. What you basically said, is the leafs don't rush their prospects unless they can contribute early, which would be the case for most teams that are over .500. The other guys have not been given the chance. You have basically just listed their prospects over the last few years. They put in Markov at a young age for a Dman also BTW. The leafs have been very poor in their handling of prospects for years though, and I wouldn't brag about their "history" of developing prospects.

 

[leafaholix*]

Apparently you have a different opinion from your "10 or so games" than JFJ has of his numerous games and reports from the leafs brass.

"He is an excellent skater, handles the puck well and makes excellent decisions at the offensive blue line. Clearly, what we are focussing on is his game from our net out, especially down low in our own zone.

"Keeping pucks out of our net is a big thing." -JFJ

That's been said and will continue to be said about any 21 year old defenseman. By the way, is it possible to add a link to that quote? I'd like to read the article.

Berg has had a 30 game stretch at best showing he can play that way, but the rest of his career has been a major disappointment. Really there is no indication that he will ever be able to do that. He was a healthy scratch at least once inthe playoffs.

If you were to watch him on a regular basis (every game, ) over the last few years in Toronto, you'd realize he's shown glimpses of potentially being a dominent #4 defenseman. He's a big boy that can skate with the best of them (big players) and physically dominate any player in the league. He's still only around 26/27 and has yet to hit his prime.

The majority of training camp is not even close to being true. He "tweaked" his groin on the 13th, and played an exhibition game on the 23rd. He did NOT miss the "majority' of training camp and preseason. That is a gross overstatement.

He did miss the majority of the start of camp where they played Farjestad, Jokerit, and Djurgarden. Colaiacovo's absence left a spot open for Kondratiev, Hedin, and Bell. Kondratiev came out on top and earned himself a spot of the roster. Carlo played many games last year at well below 100%, and still managed an excellent rookie year in the AHL.

As I said, it is not a disaster they didn't bring him up. The fact they felt the need to get these guys indicates they really were against playing him though.

The were set on having him play the year in the AHL very early on after the season started. It wouldn't make sense to have your top prospect (that happens to be a defenseman) come in and play before he's ready and battling through various injuries. The Leafs have a history of keeping guys like Boyes, Ponikarovsky, Tellqvist, etc... in the minors because they had older players on the roster that Pat Quinn was very/too loyal to.

That list makes no sense. What you basically said, is the leafs don't rush their prospects unless they can contribute early, which would be the case for most teams that are over .500. The other guys have not been given the chance. You have basically just listed their prospects over the last few years. They put in Markov at a young age for a Dman also BTW.

The Maple Leafs don't play their prospects unless the players play their brains out and leave management no option. See Antropov leading the Leafs in preseason points back in 2000 (or 1999?), Matty Stajan forcing the Leafs to leave Travis Green unprotected with his great play, and Tomas Kaberle scoring a ridiculous amount of points in the Czech league at the age of 19, then coming to North America and putting up almost identical numbers in the NHL at age 20.

The leafs have been very poor in their handling of prospects for years though, and I wouldn't brag about their "history" of developing prospects.

I fail to see what this has to do with anything, but I go a couple things...

a) Who's bragging?
b) The Leafs main problem was drafting, not player development.

 

[Evilo]

My two cents :
Zubov>McCabe (at ANY point of their careers so far)
Carlo>Daley (as a prospect, we know that may change during their NHL careers)

Finally to come back to the initial discussion, the Penguins obviously have Ryan Whitney, who on offensive abilities alone, should not be out of the top 3 IMO, but they also have Lupaschuk and Nemec.
Lupaschuk is well known, especially for his lack of focus in the defensive zone. But his offensive abilities are unquestionnable.
Nemec is not a typical offensive defenseman. He's more of a solid two way player, but he has very nice passing tools. He's not top 10 material in any way, but I think he deserves mention.
However, one that could crack this top 10 soon is Minnesota Gophers defenseman Goligoski, Penguins second rounder this year, named top incoming freshman defenseman by Inside College.

 

[leafaholix*]

For the record, I'll take Zubov over McCabe, despite the age factor. Much like I'd take Leetch over Gonchar.

 

[andora]

ok, juicer i'm not against you in any way, and i understand completely what you're saying. i won't reply to any of your quotes b/c leafaholix pretty much said exactly what i would have said...

the only point i'll comment on is your quotes from ferguson, about rounding out his two way game... that itself, atleast imo says nothing of carlo's future or hype or potential or expectancy or anything, it just shows a gm who knows carlo's best opportunity to improve is in the minors for another year b/c of the depth on the big club.. and also imo that does nothing, absolutely nothing to diminish carlo's value/expectancy/potential etc.. in any way as a future nhler...

regardless of that, i can completely see and understand your point of view, i just disagree ..

and to re-state, carlo not being on the initial list, i feel is justly unwarranted, especially since freshly drafted guys are ahead of him, two years younger (and maybe more) and lesser proven even at a junior standpoint... as nhl prospects, carlo is atleast in the top ten for potential offensive defensemen, i don't see how that can be argued when looking around the league at developing prospects 19-22

 

[Ajacied]

On a sidenote: Trevor Daley actually survived camp in 2002 (the year he got drafted) and was practicly pencilled in along side Richard Matvichuk as the 3rd pairing. For a strong contending team as the Stars, Dave Tippet felt uncomfortable playing a completely inexperienced 18 year old rookie and decided to not bring him up for at least another season. Doug Armstrong then aquired Stephane Robidas during the waiverdraft. Daley had outplayed John Erskine and Dan Jancevski.

Those were the days with good defensive depth..

Sergei Zubov - Philippe Boucher
Darryl Sydor - Derian Hatcher
Richard Matvichuk - Trevor Daley

*dreams*

 

[Shane]

These lists are pointless. If you're not drafted in the first or second round, then you're not even considered? Keith Ballard gets a mention on some lists, yet Brett Skinner outscored him last year. I don't see Skinner on any lists.

 

[mooseOAK*]

As I said, it is not a disaster they didn't bring him up. The fact they felt the need to get these guys indicates they really were against playing him though.

Right, so he didn't lose out on a spot to anyone.

That list makes no sense. What you basically said, is the leafs don't rush their prospects unless they can contribute early, which would be the case for most teams that are over .500. The other guys have not been given the chance. You have basically just listed their prospects over the last few years. They put in Markov at a young age for a Dman also BTW. The leafs have been very poor in their handling of prospects for years though, and I wouldn't brag about their "history" of developing prospects.

Markov had 39 games in the Russian first division and 62 games in the AHL before he was brought up, where he wasn't out of place.

 

[leafaholix*]

Markov had 39 games in the Russian first division and 62 games in the AHL before he was brought up, where he wasn't out of place.

He was also 22 when he started his first full NHL season. Same age as Colaiacovo would be next year.

 

[WADEugottaBELAKthat]

Thelen was taken 12th in a relatively weak draft. I would barely include him in the list.

Look at other weak drafts. 99' for example... Who came out of that a star???

um, Marian Hossa...