Top Ten Offensemen (Offensive D-men)

[andora]

ok, outside of barker and ballard who's really blowing carlo away offensively? why is mccarthy there, he's 23 YEARS OLD !!! wasn't he rushed in as a 19 year old? hasn't he shown improvement over the last year?

carlo is listed as 6'1 185 i believe, isn't that brian leetch's size? noone is expecting him to be a +45 and shut down all the top lines (well hey, i guess if sopel can shut guys down and malik can lead the league in plus minus anything's possible ), he's expected to make the team as an offensive blueliner with powerplay quarterbacking potential with room to improve defensively...

your sentence saying the odds are against him too i find a little harsh, why are the odds against him so early on in his career, which until now has been handled very well by the organization and has shown improvement by carlo himself...

reading the leaf board i think the leafs fans that have their heads on straight (messenger/rand/timmer/leafaholix etc..) don't overrate him at all, atleast i haven't found..

 

[Ajacied]

If Carlo deserves to be in the top 10, than Daley should as well. Trevor Daley has outscored Colaiacovo in each and every OHL season (Carlo 136 points in 209 games - Daley 188 points in 216 games) while being 9 months younger. Carlo nearly has a full AHL season under his belt, Daley about a half. While Carlo's team sucked pretty badly, Daley played for 3rd worst team in the AHL based on points, and worst team in terms of goals scored (162 vs 225). The Grizzlies had no finishers and made it hard for Daley to put up decent statistics. That said, Daley did manage to score 8 goals in 40 games to Carlo's 6 in 62.

 

[mooseOAK*]

Well below average size for an NHL defender. No physical game to speak of. Decent but not outstanding offensive stats. The list of guys with similar skill sets who've struggled to make any impact in pro (ie McCarthy, Campbell, etc.) is a very long one. Yeah, he had a great WJC, but so did guys like Rita, Gendron and Balmochynkh, and that far from guarantees a solid NHL career.

If Colaiacovo is ever anything more than an Andrew Ference-calibre decent #4 or #5 defender I'd be pretty surprised. And I think the odds are pretty good he'll be much less than that. Players with his level of size/skill/grit do not have a habit in recent NHL history of developing into quality top-4 defenders.

I don't think he's a poor prospect but I'd say he has a pretty hefty bust potential and I would agree completely that he's very overrated by Leaf fans in particular.

How does someone in BC get to be such an expert on a guy who only ever played in the East? I am assuming that you are saying Colaiacovo doesn't have grit but just the other day he put a Hamilton player out the game and he doesn't mind giving out hits in general. Size and skill are also no problem with skill being well above average.

He is easily a top four defenceman in the future, with top two potential because of offensive abilities.

 

[MS]

carlo is listed as 6'1 185 i believe, isn't that brian leetch's size? noone is expecting him to be a +45 and shut down all the top lines (well hey, i guess if sopel can shut guys down and malik can lead the league in plus minus anything's possible ), he's expected to make the team as an offensive blueliner with powerplay quarterbacking potential with room to improve defensively...

Colaiacovo's skill level is nowhere near Leetch. To me, his size and skills/style are comparable to guys like Ference, Girard, Campbell, McCarthy, Mottau and the like. I'd see guys like Ference and Girard who do play close to 20 min/night as #4-5 defenders for their respective teams as a realistic upside, and guys like Mottau and McCarthy as a realistic downside. And that's not a bad thing ... but to a large percentage of Leaf fans he's a sure-fire top-4 guy. To me, for a guy like him it's not much better than 50/50 whether he'll stick in the NHL and if he does it'll be more likely than not in a supporting role rather than a core role.

your sentence saying the odds are against him too i find a little harsh, why are the odds against him so early on in his career, which until now has been handled very well by the organization and has shown improvement by carlo himself...

The odds are against him being a quality top-4 defender because his size, strength, and physical game are well below average and there isn't going to be a lot happen that can change that. Guys who can play core roles with his physical abilities are very rare - there are a few exceptionally talented guys who can compensate but it's the exception rather than the rule. Maybe he can be that guy - I'm not ruling it out although I don't think his skill level or defensive smarts are quite elite enough - but as I said I'd be surprised and the odds are surely against it.

If he could develop into a solid #5 defender who scores 25-30 points/year and plays the PP fairly effectively, to me that would be a fine turnout for him. Anything more than that is really reaching - it's possible but it's not terribly likely.

How does someone in BC get to be such an expert on a guy who only ever played in the East? I am assuming that you are saying Colaiacovo doesn't have grit but just the other day he put a Hamilton player out the game and he doesn't mind giving out hits in general. Size and skill are also no problem with skill being well above average.

He is easily a top four defenceman in the future, with top two potential because of offensive abilities.

It's not exactly impossible to see him play out west ... I've seen him play a couple televised games in junior, a bunch at the WJCs, once for the Leafs, and a couple times in televised AHL games. Probably a dozen games all told ... enough to form a pretty good opinion of what he brings to the table.

No-one who's 6'1" 188 with a limited physical game is ever 'easily a top four defenceman in the future'. See all the names I listed above who were all hot-shot prospects at the same age. He might be, but I certainly wouldn't be betting on it.

 

[leafaholix*]

If Carlo deserves to be in the top 10, than Daley should as well. Trevor Daley has outscored Colaiacovo in each and every OHL season (Carlo 136 points in 209 games - Daley 188 points in 216 games) while being 9 months younger. Carlo nearly has a full AHL season under his belt, Daley about a half. While Carlo's team sucked pretty badly, Daley played for 3rd worst team in the AHL based on points, and worst team in terms of goals scored (162 vs 225). The Grizzlies had no finishers and made it hard for Daley to put up decent statistics. That said, Daley did manage to score 8 goals in 40 games to Carlo's 6 in 62.

It terms of skill, Carlo Colaiacovo is a couple notches ahead of Daley. I haven't seen Trevor play enough lately to make a relatively accurate opinion, but I know that Colaiacovo is one of the more skilled prospects (defense) in the league.

If you're looking at statistics...

Ian White is 8 months younger than Trevor Daley and put up 222 points in 246 WHL games and managed 4 points in his first 8 AHL games last year, playing as a bottom pairing defenseman on a mediocre at best hockey team.

Better numbers than Trevor Daley.

They're similar in size, White beat out Daley a couple years ago for that final Team Canada roster spot. In my opinion there's really no comparison between Colaiacovo and Daley. I realize you've made an attempt to make the connection in the past, but if you look at the complete package, there's no chance you can legitimately make a case for Daley over Carlo.

The only thing TD has over Colaiacovo is 23 NHL games at a younger age, but even then you have his main competition in Dallas being John Erskine. While Carlo was competing against Aki Berg, Bryan Marchment (at $2,000,000), Karel Pilar, and Wade Belak (team goon).

 

[leafaholix*]

No-one who's 6'1" 188 with a limited physical game is ever 'easily a top four defenceman in the future'.

A limited physical game? Just last week he knocked out Cory Urquhart in the exhibition game vs. Hamilton. The guy is not soft, he can make big hits at any given time.

 

[mooseOAK*]

It's not exactly impossible to see him play out west ... I've seen him play a couple televised games in junior, a bunch at the WJCs, once for the Leafs, and a couple times in televised AHL games. Probably a dozen games all told ... enough to form a pretty good opinion of what he brings to the table.

No-one who's 6'1" 188 with a limited physical game is ever 'easily a top four defenceman in the future'. See all the names I listed above who were all hot-shot prospects at the same age. He might be, but I certainly wouldn't be betting on it.

That 188 number can go up, if it hasn't already. If you did see him at the WJC's you saw him lead the Canadian team in scoring and one thing that hasn't been mentioned is his speed which he has in spades. Since the thread is about top 10 offensive defencemen prospects, his being left off doesn't make sense.

 

[mooseOAK*]

A limited physical game? Just last week he knocked out Cory Urquhart in the exhibition game vs. Hamilton.

Cory Urquhart, Height: 6-2 Weight: 195

 

[leafaholix*]

Cory Urquhart, Height: 6-2 Weight: 195

He's 6'3, 200 pounds.

 

[Ajacied]

It terms of skill, Carlo Colaiacovo is a couple notches ahead of Daley. I haven't seen Trevor play enough lately to make a relatively accurate opinion, but I know that Colaiacovo is one of the more skilled prospects (defense) in the league.

I'm in the exact opposite position as you are, having seen and followed Trevor Daley extremely close and Carlo not so much. However, Trevor Daley's speed and offensive awareness makes him a very entertaining defenseman to watch, having lead many to believe he's among the most skillfull defensive prospect out there. I actually believe that Daley is the more skillfull prospect of the two, offensively, as also judged by their OHL (AHL) careers.

If you're looking at statistics...

Ian White is 8 months younger than Trevor Daley and put up 222 points in 246 WHL games and managed 4 points in his first 8 AHL games last year, playing as a bottom pairing defenseman on a mediocre at best hockey team.

Better numbers than Trevor Daley.

They're similar in size, White beat out Daley a couple years ago for that final Team Canada roster spot.

I don't see what White has to do with this comparison. If anything, you're just saying how he is better than both Colaiacovo and Daley offensively. I'm not going further in the whole Daley/White matchup because I think it's quite comical, but I will say that the reason Daley was cutt was because management felt he wouldn't bring anything positive to the group. This due to Daley's so called "off-ice" problems he went through earlier in his career, in fact, it was the same reason why he slipped to the 2nd round in his draft year. On a different note; the WHL and OHL are different leagues, whether you seem to value them equal or one better than another is your decision, but compare the stats of the teams they played for and White's teammates seem to score quite a bit more. Oh, and Daley is 205 pounds, White only 175.

In my opinion there's really no comparison between Colaiacovo and Daley. I realize you've made an attempt to make the connection in the past, but if you look at the complete package, there's no chance you can legitimately make a case for Daley over Carlo.

This isn't about the complete package, strictly offensively speaken Daley holds an edge, whether you would like to admit that or come up with "Ian White" arguements is up to you.

The only thing TD has over Colaiacovo is 23 NHL games at a younger age, but even then you have his main competition in Dallas being John Erskine. While Carlo was competing against Aki Berg, Bryan Marchment (at $2,000,000), Karel Pilar, and Wade Belak (team goon).

His main competition were Stephane Robidas, Jeff MacMillan, John Erskine, Dan Jancevski and more recently Don Sweeney. Quality might've been less, but for such a "defensive first" team and for a team that urgently needed a bruiser with Hatcher gone, Daley played beyond expectations for a 2nd straight season and outplayed all of them.

 

[leafaholix*]

I'm in the exact opposite position as you are, having seen and followed Trevor Daley extremely close and Carlo not so much.

Difference is that I've seen Daley play, not sure if you've seen Carlo Colaiacovo play living over there in the Netherlands. I know what skill he has and how terrific a skater he is, and that he's feisty. But I've also seen Colaiacovo take the puck from his blue line and skate past the other team (NHL exhibition) and deke the goaltender just to be stopped by the post.

However, Trevor Daley's speed and offensive awareness makes him a very entertaining defenseman to watch, having lead many to believe he's among the most skillfull defensive prospect out there. I actually believe that Daley is the more skillfull prospect of the two, offensively, as also judged by their OHL (AHL) careers.

You can't judge skill by numbers. Judge it by accomplishments.

I don't see what White has to do with this comparison. If anything, you're just saying how he is better than both Colaiacovo and Daley offensively. I'm not going further in the whole Daley/White matchup because I think it's quite comical, but I will say that the reason Daley was cutt was because management felt he wouldn't bring anything positive to the group. This due to Daley's so called "off-ice" problems he went through earlier in his career, in fact, it was the same reason why he slipped to the 2nd round in his draft year. On a different note; the WHL and OHL are different leagues, whether you seem to value them equal or one better than another is your decision, but compare the stats of the teams they played for and White's teammates seem to score quite a bit more. Oh, and Daley is 205 pounds, White only 175.

Point is that Trevor Daley is more comparable to Ian White than he is to Carlo Colaiacovo.

This isn't about the complete package, strictly offensively speaken Daley holds an edge, whether you would like to admit that or come up with "Ian White" arguements is up to you.

Both offensively and as a complete package, Carlo Colaiacovo is a better prospect. The proof is in the pudding, see him being a first round pick, tournament all-star at the 2003 WJC, an all-star in the AHL as a rookie, and a very highly rated prospect by HF. Carlo Colaiacovo is a bluechip prospect, Trevor Daley is not. You can use all the numbers in the world, but it's a fact.

His main competition were Stephane Robidas, Jeff MacMillan, John Erskine, Dan Jancevski and more recently Don Sweeney. Quality might've been less, but for such a "defensive first" team and for a team that urgently needed a bruiser with Hatcher gone, Daley played beyond expectations for a 2nd straight season and outplayed all of them.

I can't argue that since I didn't see much Dallas hockey last year.

 

[Ajacied]

Both offensively and as a complete package, Carlo Colaiacovo is a better prospect. The proof is in the pudding, see him being a first round pick, tournament all-star at the 2003 WJC, an all-star in the AHL as a rookie, and a very highly rated prospect by HF. Carlo Colaiacovo is a bluechip prospect, Trevor Daley is not. You can use all the numbers in the world, but it's a fact.

How can you justify Carlo being better offensively when he got outscored by Trevor Daley in each and every OHL season? Not to mention their AHL seasons which were quite equal if you know their situations.

 

[leafaholix*]

How can you justify Carlo being better offensively when he got outscored by Trevor Daley in each and every OHL season? Not to mention their AHL seasons which were quite equal if you know their situations.

Then I guess Ian White is as good or better an offensive defenseman than Trevor Daley.

Trevor Daley: 188 in 216 (.870 PPG)
Ian White: 222 in 246 (.902 PPG)

Thanks for backing up my point.

Point is that Trevor Daley is more comparable to Ian White than he is to Carlo Colaiacovo.

 

[Ajacied]

Then I guess Ian White is as good or better an offensive defenseman than Trevor Daley.

Trevor Daley: 188 in 216 (.870 PPG)
Ian White: 222 in 246 (.902 PPG)

Thanks for backing up my point.

See my previous posts. White plays in a different league and thus is not as comparable.

 

[leafaholix*]

See my previous posts. White plays in a different league and thus is not as comparable.

Exactly.

Ian White played in the WHL which is a league that sees fewer goals than the OHL, yet managed to outscore Trevor Daley over their junior careers.

 

[Ajacied]

Exactly.

Ian White played in the WHL which is a league that sees fewer goals than the OHL, yet managed to outscore Trevor Daley over their junior careers.

Fewer goals? In White's last season, which was a rather dismal one, he had two teammates recording over 100 points. One even had 52 goals. Trevor Daley's highest scoring teammate didn't come any further than 71 points.

Either way, say the league's are comparable, White > Daley > Colaiacovo.

 

[HellsBells]

Exactly.

Ian White played in the WHL which is a league that sees fewer goals than the OHL, yet managed to outscore Trevor Daley over their junior careers.

Trevor Daley > Ian White. Okay. We don't even need to look at the stats.

Daley vs. Carlo, now there is something to debate.

 

[mooseOAK*]

Trevor Daley > Ian White. Okay. We don't even need to look at the stats.

Daley vs. Carlo, now there is something to debate.

Not really. Colaiacovo will play in the NHL and have a long career. Daley and White are iffy as far as that goes and as Leafaholix pointed out are closer in comparison.

 

[Chaos]

Not really. Colaiacovo will play in the NHL and have a long career. Daley and White are iffy as far as that goes and as Leafaholix pointed out are closer in comparison.

Yet Daley has already played 26 NHL games, while Colaiacovo has played in 4....but Daley is iffy to make the NHL

 

[Ajacied]

Yet Daley has already played 26 NHL games, while Colaiacovo has played in 4....but Daley is iffy to make the NHL

I think the biggest knock people have against Daley is that they refuse to look past his size. They see he's listed at 5'10 at assume he's iffy. Trevor Daley is actually 205 pounds and is build nearly the same as Brenden Morrow, who's size has yet to form the slightest little problem for him.

 

[Jacob]

I question Daley's hockey sense, but that's just me.

 

[Moskau]

Yet Daley has already played 26 NHL games, while Colaiacovo has played in 4....but Daley is iffy to make the NHL

Does M=G have a "Star Symbol" that he flashes into the sky when he needs help? Because you always manage to show up.

 

[Chaos]

Does M=G have a "Star Symbol" that he flashes into the sky when he needs help? Because you always manage to show up.

Very funny...but you'll notice the guy O=S has been arguing with, I havent replied to him..I replied to the guy who said Colaiacovo was a lock to make the NHL, while Daley was iffy....besides, theres only like 4 of us Stars fans here...we gotta support eachother

 

[Ajacied]

Does M=G have a "Star Symbol" that he flashes into the sky when he needs help? Because you always manage to show up.

We're with 2 Stars fans at the entire boards, I'll congratulate you just by spotting two.

 

[Chaos]

I question Daley's hockey sense, but that's just me.

First time I've heard anyone say that....Belle is the one who supposedly has suspect hockey sense.