Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time

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VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
Sep 24, 2008
3,815
764
Helsinki, Finland
Recognizing and understanding a traditional evaluation process is not hypotheticals.

You seem to be trying to isolate everything to one game or event(tournament) which is not my intent or reflective of a selection process.

Any worthwhile evaluation process includes adapting to the opposition strategies - but this is the evil moving the goalposts that you imagine. Soviets includig Bobrov did a great job of selecting their 1972 Summit Series roster. Only variable they did not account for was how NHL pros at the elite level would adapt to the larger International rink.

Enjoy the last word.

If you think that were now any more wiser about Bobrov's roster selections in 1972 or other coaches' decisions, you are mistaken imo. Obviously I don't know 100 % sure either (!) but I'd still suspect that the bad relationship and Firsov's age (31 at the time) and decline were the true reasons why he didn't play in the 1972 series.

I'm not even discounting the possibility that Firsov had struggled vs some Canadian players or in small rink(s), but so far the evidence has been zilch.
 
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Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,781
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
If you think that were now any more wiser about Bobrov's roster selections in 1972 or other coaches' decisions, you are mistaken imo. Obviously I don't know 100 % sure either (!) but I'd still suspect that the bad relationship and Firsov's age (31 at the time) and decline were the true reasons why he didn't play in the 1972 series.

I'm not even discounting the possibility that Firsov had struggled vs some Canadian players or in small rink(s), but so far the evidence has been zilch.

Oh well, usual from the usual posters.

Consider the following, listing plenty of reasons why Firsov was not part of the 1972 Summit Series team:

Anatoli Firsov

Just readily available info, unendorsed without comment.
 

Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
12,543
4,949
Recognizing and understanding a traditional evaluation process is not hypotheticals.

To allege you know the reason why Firsov sat out a few games in 1969 and wasn't picked by Bobrov in 1972 is definitely hypotheticals.

"Hypothetical" doesn't equal "wrong", but reality is that Firsov (captain of CSKA, Tarasov's team) was dropped from the Soviet national together with Davydov (captain of Dinamo, Chernyshov's team) as soon as Bobrov and Puchkov became coaches of the Soviet national team instead of - Chernyshov and Tarasov. Also, note the date: after the Olympics, but before the 1972 World Championship and before the Summit Series was even agreed on.

Any worthwhile evaluation process includes adapting to the opposition strategies - but this is the evil moving the goalposts that you imagine.

No, the evil is that you switch from one argument to the other with little regard to logical consistency, throw everything at the wall just to see what sticks and show a rare inability to concede you might not have been entirely right all the times.

I also note that you didn't answer my invitation to point out the alleged contradictions on my part.

Enjoy the last word.

I'll return the favour and let you have the last word - the last two words, to be precise. Canadiens1958 vs Canadiens1958:

Soviets includig Bobrov did a great job of selecting their 1972 Summit Series roster.

1972 version of the Soviet team suffered from weak coaching and management as well.
 
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Tweed

Registered User
Jun 25, 2006
4,025
1,203
Thank you, I am glad you agree. It's nice to get a drive-by comment in the history section from someone who understands career totals aren't everything, for a change.

No sweat. Just keepin' it real. Talk to y'all next year.
 

Elvis P

Pretzel Logic
Dec 10, 2007
24,021
5,729
ATL
Thank you, I am glad you agree. It's nice to get a drive-by comment in the history section from someone who understands career totals aren't everything, for a change.
With the advance of metrics, career totals are becoming less respected in most sports, but hockey has less data so it may not be true of hockey. Idk
 

Iceman

Registered User
Jun 9, 2014
10,640
2,024
Glad Henri cracked the top 50. Malkin's position seems reasonable, at least in context of the centers around him.
 

Nick Hansen

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
3,125
2,655
Crosby > Shore? OV > LaFleur?

Negative impact on playoffs overall and played in an era where defensemen are believed to have been generally over-represented in Hart-voting. Slightly weaker era as well.

Basically Ovechkin has shown more longevity. Lafleur had a tremendous peak but fizzled out after that. OV a bit weaker peak but more longevity. Also arguably the greatest goalscorer of all time. The cup and Smythe did a lot to help his case.
 

Nick Hansen

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
3,125
2,655
I wonder if Joe Thornton will be making an appearance among the choices soon? I would have thought he would have appeared around the same range as Selanne.

Selanne finished second to Jagr and Lemieux in points in two separate years.

But yeah, I agree. Thornton is not far off. He had a great peak, great longevity and unlike Selanne actually could do defense really good.
 

blueandgoldguy

Registered User
Oct 8, 2010
5,299
2,589
Greg's River Heights
Hmmm. I think there is something really wrong with the list if Thorton does not make the top-100. Some shaky playoffs sure, but fantastic longevity, spent a decade and a half as a top-5 or better centre in the game mostly.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
4,355
Thornton's reputation will probably improve down the road after he's been retired for awhile and the sting of failed Sharks playoff drives fades. I had him in my top 100, ahead of Selanne. I'd guess that he'll come up for vote in the late stages of the project.
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
48,806
29,345
He was 110 for me. I feel comfortable with that placement.

My list would be different if I made it today, but I think in a way that would hurt him rather than help.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
4,355
Dionne > Thornton and Dionne is still an option in the 60s...

I'm not actually convinced of that. Thornton was a reasonably well-rounded player for most of his career. I think he tended to get a bit of the short end of the stick when it came to awards/all-star voting. It's kind of surprising to look back to the early part of this decade and see how poorly he tended to fare in all-star voting. He was better than guys like Stamkos, Kesler and the like, who beat him out during spike seasons.
 
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Danny46

Registered User
Dec 28, 2015
461
202
No russians in the top 10? loool what joke of a list. People here think that canadians are the only ones who know how to play hockey.
 
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