Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by quoipourquoi, Nov 11, 2018.

  1. daver

    daver Registered User

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    But getting to the 3rd round is?

    For someone who take a lot of time to write out their posts, you seem to be missing the obvious double standards in them.
     
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  2. ImporterExporter

    ImporterExporter I troll harder than Poppy

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    Very good playmaker who has never once finished top 5 in the league in that category. I don't know if you know what very good means.

    Mmmmkay.

    Are we going to start asserting that he's an above average defensive player as well?

    Or are we going to gloss over how ignoring defensive responsibility makes it easier to score points? Just as it is easier to score goals when you're outshooting everyone in the league by a mile. But of course, that concept is nonsense.

    The difference between you and me is I can point to Sid's faults over the years.

    Early on he was a whiner (subsided rather quickly though)

    Took to many retaliatory penalties early in his career. Think along the lines of a Stan Mikita. Much better these days though.

    Had a few subpar playoffs, namely the series against Boston in 2013.

    Gets away with a few things most others don't, but then again superstars get this treatment often. In all sports. I remember watching Jordan repeatedly travel and throw people to the ground to get open. No calls.

    But with you, which is ironic considerating your incessant complaining about how Sid gets all these passes, it seems to be Ovechkin is the reason for successes any time the Caps do well (which isn't often) and he's blameless when they got continually bounced by inferior teams for more than a decade.
     
  3. ImporterExporter

    ImporterExporter I troll harder than Poppy

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    You're missing the point.

    I'm talking about consistency. Team consistency as it relates to teams that have a star player ripping shots with reckless abandon, seemingly always going home before less talented teams.

    And then calling out people who make blanket statements such as shots are always a great thing.

    Life, sports, and analytics are not black and white sir.
     
  4. daver

    daver Registered User

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    The numbers show that OV's playoff #'s vs. his peers which includes both multi-dimensional elite forwards and specialized elite forwards (or maybe just one in Kane) put him in the Top 10 as a playoff performer. I don't see a big reason to point to him for the Caps lack of success as clearly other Caps fell far shorter of expectations come playoff time, notably 2nd line and secondary scorers whose one or two goals could have been the difference in a couple of years for the Caps.

    His playoff resume is weak vs. other Top 20 - 25 players mainly given his relative lack of deep multiple Cup runs, not because his per game playoff performances were that much weaker.
     
  5. Mike Farkas

    Mike Farkas Grace Personified

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    It's easy to rack up points per game (which is no good when talking about Crosby) when you're only playing in first rounds...oops, not "only"...sometimes second rounds too. Not advancing in the playoffs but constantly making it as a high seed is not a feather in a cap I would wear...
     
  6. daver

    daver Registered User

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    Are still talking about Ovechkin or this about Hull? I am just wondering if you are holding Hull to the same standard and questioning his title as GOAT goalscorer?

    Both players lead the league in shots by a ton, both had shooting %s that indicated that they weren't "ripping shots with reckless abandon", both have one Cup each while going home,or without the Cup, before less talented teams many other times. Hull arguably had better support, or at least the more talented teammate.
     
  7. Theokritos

    Theokritos Moderator

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    Here is where Ovechkin ranked in assists in his prime (2005-06 to 2009-10): 7, 11, 22, 31, 42.

    Factor in that his shoot first style certainly generated an above average amount of rebound assists and the numbers hardly support your statement about his playmaking.

    Now I wouldn't refer to Ovechkin as one dimensional. That again would be an exaggeration. But even in his prime, he was a relatively specialized player and not particularly balanced offensively. And to call him a very good playmaker in an all-time sense is simply wrong.
     
  8. Midnight Judges

    Midnight Judges Registered User Sponsor

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    Each of these quotes are problematic.

    So basically the assertion is that team success in the regular season is exclusively due to "strong rosters" and NOT Ovechkin, whereas team failures in the postseason are due to Ovechkin's playing style, nevermind that secondary scoring from these allegedly strong rosters was extremely weak when Ovechkin wasn't on the ice.

    The truth is the Capitals never had a decent blue line until Orpik and Niskanen came along in 2014-2015. They never had a decent 2C until Kuznetsov blossomed in 2015-2016. They had a revolving door at goalie until Holtby solidified it in 12-13.

    The Capitals were not a great franchise to come to. They had no history of success. In Ovechkin's career, there have been 3 seasons where the Capitals had a balanced roster (this will be the 4th).

    Crosby is second in assists since the lockout, Thornton has 45 more assists (6% more), and Crosby is 1.0% ahead of 3rd place Henrik Sedin. Crosby is 4th in goals per game among players with more than 400 games played, and second in goals (Ovechkin has 48% more).

    Ovechkin is 12th in assists since the lockout, and first in goals - 48% ahead of second place.

    This has never been true.



    Ovechkin has never been a "shoot only" player. This was just debunked. Firmly.

    The talent pool was half or a third the size it is now. Maybe less. Standing out in 1963 =/= standing out in 2010. Any time they are close in ranking, the tie goes to Ovechkin. Anything else would not be equitable to modern players.

    Ovechkin has 3 Harts. Hull has 2. Advantage Ovechkin.

    Ovechkin has 48% more goals than second place during his first 13 seasons. Bobby Hull had 24% more goals than second place during his first 13 seasons (older Gordie Howe) and 31% more than Frank Mahovlich (30% over Mahovlich after 15 NHL seasons). Huge Advantage Ovechkin.

    Ovechkin has 7 Rockets. Hull has 7 Rockets. Advantage Ovechkin.

    Ovechkin is tied for 4th in playoff PPG (over 50 GP). Hull is .01 above 4th. Advantage Ovechkin.

    Ovechkin leads NHL playoffs in G/GP by .03. Hull leads by .06. (min 50 GP). But then again the next players after Ovechkin are Zetterberg and Kucherov - 2 players from countries that were non-factors in Hull's era. After them Ovechkin has a .06 lead just like Hull did. Advantage Ovechkin. Maybe draw I dunno.

    Ovechkin is first in regular season G/GP with .61. Second place is .53 (Stamkos in 70% as many games). Ovechkin had a .08 lead.
    Hull is first in regular season G/GP with .58. Second place is .56 (Esposito in 60% of games played). Hull had a .02 lead. Advantage Ovechkin.

    The spread after that isn't much different either. Ovechkin has a .13 lead on 4th and from there it's a pack of players (.09 on Kovalchuk - who again, Hull would have never have competed with in the NHL). Hull has a .13 on 3rd - and that's where the pack of players begins. Advantage Ovechkin.

    Ovechkin lead the NHL in points through his first 13 seasons. Hull was second to age 29-40 Gordie Howe. Ovechkin was 114 points ahead of third place. Hull was 107 points ahead of third place. Advantage Ovechkin.

    Hull was third in PPG through '71-72 with 4th, 5th and 6th right behind him (min 400 GP). Ovechkin is in third in PPG with nobody right behind him. Advantage Ovechkin.

    These are just some metrics. Certainly there are some metrics where Hull comes out ahead relative to his exponentially smaller talent pool. But my point is this: To say "Bobby Hull was superior by every metric you can find" is blatantly false.

    And I'm not even going into the massive flaws of VsX.

    Gordie Howe was 31 the first time Hull was a factor in Hart voting. Bobby Hull was 31 when Orr won his first.

    Their careers coincide to the extent that McDavid's and Ovechkin's do. I don't consider McDavid and Ovechkin to be from the same generation.

    Ovechkin has competed with a much larger talent pool - including 100% career overlap with Crosby.

    If you assume the 5th or 6th best player from the 50s and 60s is superior to the best player from the 2000s and 2010s, then maybe. I find it extremely unlikely that the Canada with a population of 16M puts out more hockey talent than the Canada with a 32M population + Russia + the USA + all the European countries combined. The project is fatally flawed in this regard.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  9. Midnight Judges

    Midnight Judges Registered User Sponsor

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    Firmly disagree.

    Alex Ovechkin is 12th in assists since the lockout. Ovechkin is a very good playmaker in whatever sense you want. He makes passes like these pretty frequently:





    He's been asked to shoot first by every coach he's ever had. Being the trigger man is going to lower assist totals just as being the set-up man could lower goal totals. Despite this, he still has a career assists per game roughly the same as John Tavares.

    There aren't that many assists coming off rebounds. The vast majority are passing plays.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
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  10. Theokritos

    Theokritos Moderator

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    Paint me sceptical. What Mike Farkas has said stands to reason: In the third round of the POs you usually face opponents that are more difficult to score on than in the first round. Therefore the comparison is distorted in disfavour of players whose teams had multiple deep PO runs.

    An examples:

    Sidney Crosby has 185 points in 160 playoff games. 90 of those points (48.6 %) were scored in his 59 first round games, that is: in just 36.8 % of his overall playoff games. In the remaining 101 playoff games (second to fourth round) = 63.2 % of all games, Crosby scored 95 points, that is: 51.4 % of his overall PO production.

    In all likeliness, more deeper playoff runs for Ovechkin mean that his GP count (at 121 now) goes up faster than his points count (at 117 now) and thus, his rank among contemporary playoff scorers takes a dive.
     
  11. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Reinforcing the notion that only retired players should be considered.
     
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  12. daver

    daver Registered User

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    He is 2nd in goals, 4th in points, 1st in GPG (among the top 25 goal scorers), T4 in PPG (among the top 25 scorers). I don't mind context being added to these as long as it is offered in statistical form rather than speculative narrative.

    This could be countered with a quality of competition analysis. The Caps did seem to face some tough defensive competition for awhile.

    I think moving him out of the Top Ten playoff performers of his era is less reasonable than having him in the Top Ten.

    Off the top of my head:

    Clearly ahead:

    Crosby
    Malkin
    Toews
    Kane
    Keith
    Zetterberg

    Any others than should be clearly rated ahead of him?
     
  13. pappyline

    pappyline Registered User

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    If this your point of view fine. But why do the results of this totally flawed project bother you so much then. You have been asked where you would rank Ovechkin and Hull and you have been asked to give us your top 20. This would be interesting if nothing else. If you are not willing to do this then your opinion is meaningless.
     
  14. Midnight Judges

    Midnight Judges Registered User Sponsor

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    Fair enough. I will submit a top 20. But I'm not going to rush and cobble it together. It will take some time.
     
  15. Midnight Judges

    Midnight Judges Registered User Sponsor

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    Sid is a bad baseline in this regard. The point swing is almost certainly not proportionate to league wide scoring per round.

    As much as this point is made about later rounds, somebody ought to be compiling the data on team GPG by playoff round. If that data exists, I have not seen it.

    Ovechkin has played a disproportionate number of playoff games against Lundqvist - who in those years had a good defense in front of him.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  16. Mike Farkas

    Mike Farkas Grace Personified

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    Yeah, this is getting really creepy/uncomfortable/gross now...I can't imagine looking at the game with the eyes of my heart in such an incredibly irresponsible way. Let's move it on. I guess keep some of the posts somewhere because I'm sure there's some stats in there that people worked at, but this can go now...
     
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  17. danincanada

    danincanada Registered User

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    Yup. It seems that in order to take part in a project like this and not go insane you need to pretend this point you've made isn't valid. They either deny it matters or pretend their "eye test" is good enough to place Hull above Ovechkin. Some actually believe Hull faced "stiffer competition", as if pre-baby boom Canada produced more elite talent than the world can now. Don't waste your time, no matter how many people or times this is pointed out the general consensus in this section is to deny it and keep pretending.

    I don't care much for Ovi but I'll have my popcorn out if he continues to accomplish a lot personally and his team wins another Cup. Unfortunately, I think many here will place Hull above him no matter what happens cause that's just what they do.
     
  18. daver

    daver Registered User

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    What player or players currently ranked in the Top 100 project is, in your opinion, ranked lower than what a performance vs. peers analysis would dictate?
     
  19. danincanada

    danincanada Registered User

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    Performance vs. peers or "peer to peer" analysis alone stinks. It's a lazy way to do it but if one chooses to do it that way then at least admit that's all that's being done and adding other context is too much to even consider. To me, having half of the top 10 come from the O6 is similar to old time Soviet fans having half of their top 10 list comprised of the Soviet greats who dominated their domestic league. That would be mocked here for obvious reasons but for some reason it's okay to pretend the O6 was a super league that somehow had more value than the modern NHL even though it often just had domestic Canadian talent and nothing more.
     
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  20. wetcoast

    wetcoast Registered User

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    That's an idea but then the list wouldn't be very accurate then would it?

    I mean all players are analyzed the same way right?
     
  21. wetcoast

    wetcoast Registered User

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    Seems like you've had plenty of time, it's not a difficult exercise as this project has 40 players listed already.
     
  22. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    What???? Complete career analysis is the same as a partial career analysis?

    Post career, no projections. Active career projections whether overt or implied are always there.
     
  23. quoipourquoi

    quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    Closing now until the next vote. Take it to the main boards.
     
  24. Wrigley

    Wrigley .

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    Robinson fell from 31 to 37. I think he's one of the best, if not the best, post-O6 defensive dman.
     
  25. The Macho Man

    The Macho Man Lusty Bodychecker

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    I think that has something to do with Ovi and Crosby making the list, as well as Jagr rebounding a bit (was he above Jagr in the last project?)
     
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