Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by quoipourquoi, Nov 11, 2018.

  1. ImporterExporter

    ImporterExporter I troll harder than Poppy

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    No, he's not.

    But more specifically I'm not talking about 8 as a stand alone player. My point is broader and more complex. Players like Ovechkin, as the focal point of a team offensively, drag a team down more than elevate them. You and others seem to think that the blanket statement "more shots are better" is a science. It's not.

    Now, to be fair, I don't have a perfect formula for countering that argument but at least I'm willing to compile numbers and investigate.

    Thank God the voters didn't give McDavid the Hart last year. I don't care what anyone says. There is no way you can be the most valuable player in the league when the playoffs roll around and you're playing golf. What do you say? Hey, we're the best non playoff team? Without me, we'd have the worst record? But there are many people who just equate scoring the most points being the most valuable. It's rubbish.

    Ovechkin has long been overhyped when it comes to value.

    Is it any wonder why he has all those goal scoring titles but only 1 Art Ross despite only once missing more than a few games (which were partly missed due to being suspended)? Been at or below a point per game player 4 times in his career. Plays little to no defense for the bulk of his career.

    Bobby Hull (4.96) actually had more shots per game than Ovechkin (4.85) but then again, Hull had challengers like Gordie Howe (4.13), Bobby Orr (4.65) and Phil Esposito (4.03) chasing him.

    Ovechkin's comp in terms of shot volume are Ilya Kovalchuk (3.58), Rick Nash (3.42), Evgeni Malkin (3.38) and Zach Parise (3.35).

    So not only are the gaps much smaller, the level of comp is far greater in the case of Hull.

    And as it stands, the Caps have been past the 2nd round once. Once in 13 seasons.

    Teams that have done that more than one time since 2006?

    2006: Canes, Sabres, Ducks, Oilers,
    2007: Sens, Sabres, Ducks, Wings
    2008: Pens, Flyers, Wings, Stars
    2009: Pens, Canes, Wings, Hawks,
    2010: Flyers, Habs, Hawks, Sharks,
    2011: Bruins, Lightning, Nucks, Sharks,
    2012: Devils, Rangers, Kings, Coyotes,
    2013: Bruins, Pens, Hawks, Kings
    2014: Rangers, Habs, Kings, Hawks,
    2015: Lightning, Rangers, Hawks, Ducks,
    2016: Pens, Lightning, Sharks, Blues
    2017: Pens, Sens, Preds, Ducks,
    2018: Caps, Lightning, Knights, Jets

    Pens = 5
    Hawks = 5
    Lightning = 4
    Ducks = 4
    Sharks = 3
    Wings = 3
    Kings = 3
    Rangers = 3
    Bruins = 2
    Habs = 2
    Sabres = 2
    Sens = 2
    Canes = 2
    Flyers = 2

    14 teams. Nearly half the league.

    Again, until the Caps prove last year wasn't an outlier, it is, mathematically speaking. Now, I probably just guaranteed them another Cup (jinx lol) but I said the same thing about Crosby and the Penguins in 2009. 1 isn't enough for a generational player to be crowned on.

    Most shots per game since 2006 on a per game basis are OV, Kovy, Evander Kane, Tyler Seguin, Rick Nash, Malkin, MacKinnon, Parise, Hall and Jeff Carter.

    Kovy, Kane, Nash, Mackinnon, Parise and Hall have 0 Cups. Seguin got 1 as a rookie in Boston, Malkin has 3, Carter has 2.
     
  2. Nick Hansen

    Nick Hansen Registered User

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    So Ovy, Malkin, Carter and Seguin account for seven cups whilst only being four players out of ten. Seems like shooting a lot might be pretty good then.

    Or it is a flawed argument. Nash, Kovy, Parise, Mackinnon, Hall and E. Kane never played for any true contenders if you ask me. Ya, nice runs by both Rangers and NJ but nobody expected them to win the cup. So their finals should perhaps be a plus in their case tbh.

    Most of these are elite shooters any way, you want them to shoot a lot!
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  3. ImporterExporter

    ImporterExporter I troll harder than Poppy

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    I'm no math wiz, but more players accounted for 0 than 1+.

    Plus, the only guy on that list that is THE player on his team is Ovechkin. Seguin was a rookie passenger, Carter a role player. Malkin accounts for nearly 50% of that total and is one guy.
     
  4. Nick Hansen

    Nick Hansen Registered User

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    Why do you cut my post in half, when the second half was relevant? Did you expect Hall, Evander Kane or Mackinnon to have won cups by now?

    The answer is that cup-winning teams need a great 2C or a 1D who is great alongside a goalie becoming decently hot which Caps had sometimes (Holtby's got a pretty good record IMO). Ovechkin didn't have either before Kuznetsov came along (Green? Come on.). Kings had Carter/Richards/Doughty(/Quick), Hawks had Keith who I consider an all-time great PO performer and PIT had Crosby/Malkin.
     
  5. ImporterExporter

    ImporterExporter I troll harder than Poppy

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    Because when I hit reply you hadn't edited in the 2nd paragraph.

    John Carlson isn't a #1 Dman? Braden Holtby hasn't won a Vezina and posted stellar playoff numbers almost every year? Kuz was around the 3 previous years when the Caps got bounced in the 2nd round each time. He explodes for an all time great run this past year. And again, the Caps have been the President trophy winning team 3 times. Over a 100 points numerous other times.

    Again, I'm talking about consistency and outliers.
     
  6. czechmate

    czechmate Registered User

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    What are the reasons for Crosby being ranked above Jagr?
     
  7. Nick Hansen

    Nick Hansen Registered User

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    Ok.

    Both Kuz and Carlson have been uneven until last year where both seemingly broke out in a big fashion, kept it through the playoffs and are holding it up this year as well. And no, I didn't consider either to be great guys to rely in a playoff battle going forward before last year...did you think Carlson or Kuz was like having a Doughty, Keith or Malkin beside you before last year? I for sure didn't.
     
  8. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Read the relevent discussions.

    Crosby was,is and will remain a more complete and better player.
     
  9. czechmate

    czechmate Registered User

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    Agree to disagree :thumbu: Ive been searching for the discussion, is it in this thread?
     
  10. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Eventually will be linked at the base of the first post in this thread.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  11. Midnight Judges

    Midnight Judges Registered User Sponsor

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    Unless it's Bobby Hull playing in a 6 team league, eh?

    What a joke.
     
  12. Midnight Judges

    Midnight Judges Registered User Sponsor

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    One would think Ovechkin contributing to 3 crucial game winning goals against your Penguins would have learned you something.





     
  13. Midnight Judges

    Midnight Judges Registered User Sponsor

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    You were just plain wrong. Malkin assists or scores the goal on 30% + of Crosby's points in some seasons. You said there is no way that's true. It was proven to be true, with links.

    But you proudly stand behind your wrongness. Good to know.
     
  14. ImporterExporter

    ImporterExporter I troll harder than Poppy

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    Bobby Hull was superior by every metric you can find. He also went to 4 SCF's.

    Cool. One series out of 4. Who won the previous 3?

    You are really poor at math.
    No. You just think you can pass off points that are largely from the PP, as evidence that Sid plays with Malkin a lot. He doesn't. As if Crosby hasn't repeatedly produced without Malkin (who's missed a ****load of time) or inferior wingers throughout his entire career. Or more at ES with said inferior line mates.
     
  15. quoipourquoi

    quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    Why does there appear to be a current player vs. current player debate in the History board? Specifically a project thread.

    Take it elsewhere; we’ll probably be purging a lot of this.
     
  16. daver

    daver Registered User

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    This sounds like a strawman to me. Noone is arguing OV as the best goalscorer based on the number of shots he he taken. That he is able to get the most pucks on net while maintaining a solid shooting % should put this to bed. That some of his misses result in lost possession is the price of doing business as a goalscorer. This would be akin to critquing Crosby for the times his passes result in a turnover.

    The starting point in this discussion is "more goals are better". You have introduced an element that questions OV's goalscoring abilities if he did not take so many shots on net. This seems to be based on the premise that the Caps randomly choose OV to be the designated goalscorer rather than OV having generational goalscoring skills. This would be akin to saying centres get more assists only because they handle the puck more than wingers.

    As for your playoff argument, secondary scoring clearly was the biggest reason for them not advancing. And no, last year is not a statistical anomaly for the Caps or OV until proven otherwise. They get full credit for winning.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  17. daver

    daver Registered User

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    I thought Cup wins is the most important metric? Hull only has one. Aren't they tied?

    Claiming that getting to the SCF in a six team league is superior to getting to the 2nd round in a 30 team league has as much relevance as saying winning a 1st round series in a 30 team league is equal to a SCF appearance in the O6.

    It is worth noting that the Caps got stopped three times by the eventual Cup winners.
     
  18. bobholly39

    bobholly39 Registered User

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    Once again - you're so full of **** it's hilarious.

    Let's change the dates. 1982-1988. Guess who led the leagues in shots? Gretzky
    Guess who led the league in shots per game? Gretzky
    Guess who had the most shots in a season 4x in that 7 year stretch? Gretzky

    I think that worked out ok for him.

    I maintain my stipulation that there's been no Nuclear Bomb since Ovechkin entered the league and that he must be good for world peace.

    Just because 2 things happen at the same time - it doesn't mean they're directly linked by cause/effect.

    Ovechkin shoots a lot. That's a good thing
    Ovechkin scores a lot of goals. That's also a good thing.
    Ovechkin only made it past round 2 once. That's a bad thing (everyone knows this btw - you didn't need to go count all the teams that did or didn't make it past round 2 - literally everyone here knows he only did it once).

    There's no direct connection between those facts. And if there is now you sure as hell haven't done a good job in establishing it, outside of just mentioning the 2. ie - Ovi for world Peace sounds just as good.

    You: "you need more than 1 cup to be a generational player"
    Him "yeah but Bobby Hull"
    You "Oh wait forget what i said. Instead i'll change to "yeah Bobby Hull is better at everything"


    You "There's no way Malkin contributes to over 30% of Crosby's goals in a season"
    Him "Yeah there is, it's happened"
    You "Nope I guarantee it's impossible. Not at all. Nope"
    Him "Here's the data and proof. Admit you were wrong?"
    You "Let's change the subject yet again...."
     
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  19. Theokritos

    Theokritos Moderator

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    Search in the vote 3 thread (starting with post #37).
     
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  20. Theokritos

    Theokritos Moderator

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    Undeniably true.
    Also true.
    Now that is debatable. I agree with you the label "shoot only" is an exaggeration that is shortchanging Ovechkin. But the notion that a multi-dimensional elite forward, someone with a more balanced set of offensive tools, is harder to stop in the playoffs (where the opponent gets to focus on you and get familiar with you) than a more specialized elite forward, that notion seems far more reasonable than those deliberately absurd examples of pseudo causation you have brought up to make your point about correlation vs causation.
     
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  21. Midnight Judges

    Midnight Judges Registered User Sponsor

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    That's fine to say, but it has nothing to do with Alex Ovechkin - who is a very good playmaker, skates well, and is extremely physical.

    This notion that Alex Ovechkin is not a balanced player is pure nonsense. You don't win 3 Harts, lead the NHL in PPG 3 times, or get 530 assists by being one dimensional. It cannot be done.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
  22. bobholly39

    bobholly39 Registered User

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    I mean Washington's playoff failures probably has *some* to do with Ovechkin. He is their best player/leader/captain. You can't just blanketly absolve him of all failures.

    And I agree with the idea that a more well balanced offense could be argued as more useful than a a more one dimensional type of offense come playoff time (though this is hardly an absolute statement as there are always exceptions - but seems reasonable enough).

    I also think Alex Ovechkin for a lot of his career has been much of a one dimensional player. You're still being too defensive about it - why is that such a bad thing? He scores goals, lots of them. He led the league in PPG 3x because at his peak his offense was a lot more well balanced. A lot of the stuff since 2010 points towards a more one-dimensional type of player (not every season, but a lot of them). Again - why are you so defensive about it?

    Brett Hull has 650 career assists and is thought of as 1 dimensional. Career assist numbers doesn't mean anything lol
     
  23. FinProspects

    FinProspects Registered User

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    Yeah, Ovie was a full offensive force in his hay day (05-10).

    After that the stats really show it that he has been more one-dimensional player, but who could really expect him to dominate like he did in the 05-10?
    10-11 79 35+53=85
    11-12 78 38+27=65
    12-13 48 32+24=56
    13-14 78 51+28=79
    14-15 81 53+28=81
    15-16 79 50+21=71
    16-17 82 33+36=69
    17-18 82 49+38=87
    18-19 39 30+16=46

    One-dimensional or not, I'm just in awe of the stats here, especially the last few seasons where just bounced back after subpar 16-17 season.
     
  24. ImporterExporter

    ImporterExporter I troll harder than Poppy

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    Cup counting is worthless.
     
  25. ImporterExporter

    ImporterExporter I troll harder than Poppy

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    Both are top 100 players of all time.

    Can we not discuss them simply because they're active?
     

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