Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 19

[MXD]

His NHL career?

That's... when he was moved to D, indeed.

 

[MXD]

are those vsx tables posted upthread? i think i missed them.

if we are going by h-r adjusted stats, their nine year offensive peaks are basically identical.

did we ever account for how much forward howe played pre-philadelphia in the defensemen project?

for defensive value, the thing i can't get past is at his peak he helped three different goalies in three years to top two vezina finishes, with two of them winning it.

I'm not saying Howe wasn't great -- in fact, I really like him at this stage.

Still, what I can't get past is Keith playing well enough for 28 mins/game so his team can win a Cup with, litterally, the worst netminder to ever lead a team to the Stanley Cup.

 

[seventieslord]

That's... when he was moved to D, indeed.

ok, so we agree he was only a defenseman in the NHL, then? Just making sure we are clear on that.

Because if we are, he's basically even with Keith as a producer by defense VsX (10 year).

 

[MXD]

ok, so we agree he was only a defenseman in the NHL, then? Just making sure we are clear on that.

Because if we are, he's basically even with Keith as a producer by defense VsX (10 year).

... Okay, I don't quite know if brain farts are supposed to be smelly, but if they do, thinking Regular VsX Tables included WHA was a really, really smelly one from my part. Sorry about that.

 

[ted2019]

... If Duncan Keith is a better RS offensive performer than Mark Howe (source : VsX tables), despite Howe spending some seasons as a Forward, and Keith is also a better playoff performer (source not needed), it would probably entail that Duncan Keith should be ranked ahead of Mark Howe, unless someone could prove, as oppose to only argue, that Howe had better defensive value and longevity... and considering he spent a sizeable chunk of his career as a forward, that's probably not happening.

This said, I really like Howe in this group, too.

Howe might be my #1 this round. He played in an era of some ATG defensemen in the 80's. I'll take Howe's Norris record over Keith's ( even though Keith won 2 Norris'). Keith's 2013-14 win is nice, beating Weber & Chara. In 2009-10, he beat Mike Green and a 20 year old Drew Doughty. Howe somehow lost to Rod Langway in 1982-83, but finished ahead of Raymond Bourque. In 1985-86, Howe lost to Coffey ( 130 pt season) and finished ahead of Larry Robinson. The following year he lost to Raymond Bourque and finished ahead of Larry Murphy. If Howe isn't the top dog for me this round, he won't fall farther then #2 or 3.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The main problem I have with Mark Howe is that he struggled to string together a number of healthy seasons when he was in his prime. As a result, his Norris record is somewhat disappointing compared to other defensemen this round (other than Serge Savard, who is generally considered better than his Norris record mainly due to his defensive role for a dynasty).

Norris records of NHL defensemen this round
(min 2 top 3 votes)

Bill Gadsby

53-54: 3rd
55-56: 2nd
56-57: 4th
57-58: 2nd
58-59: 2nd
59-60: 6th
60-61: 10th
62-63: 5th
64-65: 3rd
65-66: 11th

Overall: 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 11

Serge Savard

72-73: 6th
74-75: 5th
75-76: 5th
76-77: 5th
77-78: 8th
78-79: 4th

Overall: 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, 8

Mark Howe

79-80: 5th
80-81: 11th
82-83: 2nd
84-85: 6th
85-86: 2nd
86-87: 2nd
87-88: 9th

Overall: 2, 2, 2, 5, 6, 9, 11


Brian Leetch

88-89: 11th
90-91: 4th
91-92: 1st
93-94: 5th
95-96: 3rd
96-97: 1st
98-99: 8th
00-01: 5th
03-04: 11th

Overall: 1, 1, 3, 4, 5, 5, 8, 11, 11

Duncan Keith

07-08: 11th
08-09: 6th
09-10: 1st
10-11: 9th
12-13: 6th
13-14: 1st
14-15: 7th
15-16: 11th
16-17: 4th

Overall: 1, 1, 4, 6, 6, 7, 9, 11, 11

_____________

A smaller problem I have with Mark Howe is that when Mike Keenan was discussing the few straight #1 defensemen he had - defensemen capable of playing #1 minutes across all 3 special teams, he mentioned Brian Leetch and Chris Pronger but not Mark Howe. Perhaps because Howe was something of an even strength specialist, but I don't know if he was ever a top notch PP QB?

 

[Canadiens1958]

The main problem I have with Mark Howe is that he struggled to string together a number of healthy seasons when he was in his prime. As a result, his Norris record is somewhat disappointing compared to other defensemen this round (other than Serge Savard, who is generally considered better than his Norris record mainly due to his defensive role for a dynasty).

Norris records of NHL defensemen this round
(min 2 top 3 votes)

Bill Gadsby

53-54: 3rd
55-56: 2nd
56-57: 4th
57-58: 2nd
58-59: 2nd
59-60: 6th
60-61: 10th
62-63: 5th
64-65: 3rd
65-66: 11th

Overall: 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 11

Serge Savard

72-73: 6th
74-75: 5th
75-76: 5th
76-77: 5th
77-78: 8th
78-79: 4th

Overall: 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, 8

Mark Howe

79-80: 5th
80-81: 11th
82-83: 2nd
84-85: 6th
85-86: 2nd
86-87: 2nd
87-88: 9th

Overall: 2, 2, 2, 5, 6, 9, 11


Brian Leetch

88-89: 11th
90-91: 4th
91-92: 1st
93-94: 5th
95-96: 3rd
96-97: 1st
98-99: 8th
00-01: 5th
03-04: 11th

Overall: 1, 1, 3, 4, 5, 5, 8, 11, 11

Duncan Keith

07-08: 11th
08-09: 6th
09-10: 1st
10-11: 9th
12-13: 6th
13-14: 1st
14-15: 7th
15-16: 11th
16-17: 4th

Overall: 1, 1, 4, 6, 6, 7, 9, 11, 11

_____________

A smaller problem I have with Mark Howe is that when Mike Keenan was discussing the few straight #1 defensemen he had - defensemen capable of playing #1 minutes across all 3 special teams, he mentioned Brian Leetch and Chris Pronger but not Mark Howe. Perhaps because Howe was something of an even strength specialist, but I don't know if he was ever a top notch PP QB?

Mark Howe never played a complete NHL RS schedule. Other Dmen being considered did. Major bump in the road when it comes to deployment.

Mark Howe Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Keenan's point is vague. Not clear if he is drawing the line between could play #1 minutes and did play #1 minutes in all three situations. Keenan was strictly a short shift coach. Playing the #1 dman in all three situations would mean giving away the ES match-up advantage.

 

[wetcoast]

As was pointed out up thread Howe also had an extremely good WHA career both in the regular season and playoffs.

He wasn't just one of the better 2 way Dmen of the 80s.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Agree with this especially since Peter in his first NHL season established himself as elite and the guy considered better in Europe, Novy, literally stunk in his NHL time.

It certainly is interesting that Stastny immediately excelled to the extent he did in the NHL, while other guys who outscored him in Czechoslovakia like Novy, Pouzar, Hlinka were nowhere close to that level upon coming to the NHL. They were older mind you, which was obviously one factor.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

A smaller problem I have with Mark Howe is that when Mike Keenan was discussing the few straight #1 defensemen he had - defensemen capable of playing #1 minutes across all 3 special teams, he mentioned Brian Leetch and Chris Pronger but not Mark Howe. Perhaps because Howe was something of an even strength specialist, but I don't know if he was ever a top notch PP QB?

this is really interesting; i had no idea. how could a flyers team that was always good have such a poor powerplay? kind of amazing that tim kerr led the league in PP goals twice while his team was in the bottom third of PP goals for.

looking just at the stats, it seems keenan probably meant the latter, that howe was not a top notch PP QB. he always was first or second on his team in PP points among defensemen so i assume that means he also played prime PP minutes.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Agree with this Keon is really weak overall for a top 100 player of all time.

If he had played for the NYR his name would have never come up.

If he played for the Rangers he'd have had better numbers. And the Rangers would have been a better team.

Toronto was all defense in the 60's. Keon pretty much being their version of Henri Richard.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

A smaller problem I have with Mark Howe is that when Mike Keenan was discussing the few straight #1 defensemen he had - defensemen capable of playing #1 minutes across all 3 special teams, he mentioned Brian Leetch and Chris Pronger but not Mark Howe. Perhaps because Howe was something of an even strength specialist, but I don't know if he was ever a top notch PP QB?

on the other hand, if your paraphrase is accurate keenan also didn't mention chelios who is by far the best defenseman keenan ever had.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The main problem I have with Mark Howe is that he struggled to string together a number of healthy seasons when he was in his prime. As a result, his Norris record is somewhat disappointing compared to other defensemen this round (other than Serge Savard, who is generally considered better than his Norris record mainly due to his defensive role for a dynasty).

Norris records of NHL defensemen this round
(min 2 top 3 votes)

Bill Gadsby

53-54: 3rd
55-56: 2nd
56-57: 4th
57-58: 2nd
58-59: 2nd
59-60: 6th
60-61: 10th
62-63: 5th
64-65: 3rd
65-66: 11th

Overall: 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 11

Serge Savard

72-73: 6th
74-75: 5th
75-76: 5th
76-77: 5th
77-78: 8th
78-79: 4th

Overall: 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, 8

Mark Howe

79-80: 5th
80-81: 11th
82-83: 2nd
84-85: 6th
85-86: 2nd
86-87: 2nd
87-88: 9th

Overall: 2, 2, 2, 5, 6, 9, 11


Brian Leetch

88-89: 11th
90-91: 4th
91-92: 1st
93-94: 5th
95-96: 3rd
96-97: 1st
98-99: 8th
00-01: 5th
03-04: 11th

Overall: 1, 1, 3, 4, 5, 5, 8, 11, 11

Duncan Keith

07-08: 11th
08-09: 6th
09-10: 1st
10-11: 9th
12-13: 6th
13-14: 1st
14-15: 7th
15-16: 11th
16-17: 4th

Overall: 1, 1, 4, 6, 6, 7, 9, 11, 11

_____________

A smaller problem I have with Mark Howe is that when Mike Keenan was discussing the few straight #1 defensemen he had - defensemen capable of playing #1 minutes across all 3 special teams, he mentioned Brian Leetch and Chris Pronger but not Mark Howe. Perhaps because Howe was something of an even strength specialist, but I don't know if he was ever a top notch PP QB?

Of interest, Mark Howe's 28 short-handed goals is a record for defensemen.

Wrister like his dad.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

on the other hand, if your paraphrase is accurate keenan also didn't mention chelios who is by far the best defenseman keenan ever had.

I went and found the actual quote. Overpass originally posted it during the defensemen project. It's actually far more damning of Mark Howe than I remembered, specifically comparing him unfavorably to Chelios, Pronger, and Leetch:

Keenan has always believed a dominant, Norris Trophy-calibre defenceman is essential. Keenan traded for Chris Chelios when he was in Chicago and for Chris Pronger when he coached and managed in St. Louis. He had Brian Leetch when New York won the Stanley Cup in 1994.

Keenan said the only exception to his rule may have been in Philadelphia, where he surrounded superior, but not outstanding, defenceman Mark Howe with a strong supporting cast.​

This is what overpass said about Howe (minus the usage tables which were destroyed in the migration:

Howe's special teams usage is a bit lower than one would expect, based on his reputation. I guess he was just more of a skating/transition/even-strength player.

Howe was listed at 5'11", 185 lbs. Every great penalty killing defenceman (post-expansion) has been bigger. Most have been 6'2 or taller. Among the shorter ones were Ray Bourque (5'11, 220 lbs) and Chris Chelios (6'0, 191 lbs).

Howe was also a much better offensive player at even strength than on the power play. His skating would have been more of an advantage at even strength. He used his great wrist shot more than a slap shot, but maybe this wasn't as good a fit for the power play?

Here are the year-by-year special teams numbers for Howe, as well as his rank among defenceman on his team and who he was behind, if anyone. Keeping in mind that single season numbers are imprecise...


*Howe played forward on the PK this season.

Edit: Another factor, at least during the Mike Keenan years of 84/85 to 87/88, might have been the fact that Keenan preferred to go with four defencemen as much as possible in Philadelphia. So he wouldn't want to play one defenceman on special teams too much, to avoid messing up the rotation.

 

[DN28]

Agree with this especially since Peter in his first NHL season established himself as elite and the guy considered better in Europe, Novy, literally stunk in his NHL time.

Novy was past his prime and 30+ years old. If Stastny would arrive to NHL at that age, he would hardly do any better than Novy in Washington...

Stastny was 24 years old when he entered NHL competition. When Novy was 24 y/o, he was just named as All-Star Center of Canada Cup 1976 and finished 5th in overall scoring.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

PLAYOFF R-ON/R-OFF

I'm not re-posting the results from everyone I talked about before; see the previous thread.

Dave Keon

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1960-61	5	0.50	0.33	50%
1961-62	12	2.50	0.90	178%
1962-63	10	6.00	1.67	260%
1963-64	14	1.63	1.06	53%
1964-65	6	1.50	2.25	-33%
1965-66	4	0.50	0.50	0%
1966-67	12	1.25	0.89	40%
1968-69	4	0.60	0.09	560%
1970-71	6	1.50	0.63	140%
1971-72	5	0.60	0.36	65%
1973-74	4	0.60	0.50	20%
1974-75	7	1.00	0.36	175%
1979-80	3	0.40	0.55	-27%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Let's be honest - Keon's regular season resume is unimpressive for a potential top 100 player. But his two-way play in the postseason is nearly unparalleled. In thirteen postseasons, he outperformed his team's average ten times (with one more season being a tie) - all ten of those out-performances were by at least a 20% margin (with eight of those being by a 50% margin). Yes, a lot of the years have small samples sizes, but his consistency can't be overlooked. Among forwards with 80+ playoff games, Keon has a better out-performance ratio (R-On divided by R-Off) than any forward dating back to 1960, with the exception of Peter Forsberg.

Erik Karlsson

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
2009-10	6	0.33	0.91	-63%
2011-12	7	1.00	1.00	0%
2012-13	10	1.00	1.08	-7%
2014-15	6	0.50	0.71	-30%
2016-17	19	2.00	0.54	271%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Karlsson's playoff resume through his first four seasons was disappointing - two springs where he was weaker than his teammates, and two where he was roughly on par. But his 2017 playoff run was one for the ages - his numbers were similar to (but better than) Bourque in 1990. His career out-performance ratio is, believe it or not, virtually identical to Bobby Orr - though of course that's over a much smaller sample size, and his one big run covers up many weaker ones.

Jarome Iginla

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1995-96	2	2.00	0.30	567%
2003-04	26	2.44	1.00	144%
2005-06	7	2.50	0.56	350%
2006-07	6	0.50	0.22	125%
2007-08	7	0.83	0.86	-3%
2008-09	6	0.50	1.67	-70%
2012-13	15	0.73	1.19	-38%
2013-14	12	1.00	1.50	-33%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Strong results overall. We all know that Iginla dragged a weak team to game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals (along with Kipprusoff), but he also performed extremely well in first-round losses in the two following seasons. After that, his numbers plummet (which I found somewhat surprising - I mean, we all know 2013 and 2014 didn't work out as planned for him, but those are some ugly numbers in 2009 - and even a relative disappointment in 2008 given he was a Hart finalist). Still, overall Iginla's career numbers are strong - his out-performance ratio puts him on par with Alfredsson, Fedorov and Jagr.

Joe Thornton

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1997-98	6	#DIV/0!	0.58	#DIV/0!
1998-99	11	1.17	1.08	8%
2001-02	6	1.00	0.90	11%
2002-03	5	0.29	1.00	-71%
2003-04	7	0.33	1.29	-74%
2005-06	11	0.50	1.56	-68%
2006-07	11	1.22	1.00	22%
2007-08	13	1.43	0.86	67%
2008-09	6	0.50	0.43	17%
2009-10	15	0.48	1.55	-69%
2010-11	18	0.69	1.08	-37%
2011-12	5	2.00	0.33	500%
2012-13	11	2.67	0.50	433%
2013-14	7	0.14	1.31	-89%
2015-16	24	1.13	1.44	-22%
2016-17	4	0.67	1.00	-33%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

As I alluded to earlier, Thornton has an excellent regular season resume - possibly the best out of any remaining player. But he's been branded a playoff choker ever since being held scoreless in seven games at age 24 (he was definitely injured that series - I think he had some broken ribs). Thornton has had a few solid playoff runs (2008 and especially 2013 stand out), but overall his results are poor. He was below his team's average in eight of his team's sixteen playoffs (including all three of the years they made it to, or past, the conference finals). Thornton's teams, on average, have been a bit better than even when he was off the ice, but his personal R-On ratio is a weak 0.79. He's scored 123 playoff points - a significant number - but I can't help but think he's just a playoff compiler. Of the 54 forwards (1960-present) who have played in 150+ games, he has the worst R-On ratio and the 3rd worst out-performance ratio. Instead of being a shoe-in for the top 100, I have to seriously think if his playoff resume is weak enough to keep him out.

Mark Howe

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1979-80	3	0.33	0.71	-53%
1982-83	3	0.25	0.50	-50%
1983-84	3	1.00	0.27	267%
1984-85	19	1.58	0.92	72%
1985-86	5	1.00	0.83	20%
1986-87	26	1.75	1.00	75%
1987-88	7	2.17	0.41	426%
1988-89	19	2.08	0.81	157%
1992-93	7	2.50	0.63	300%
1993-94	6	1.00	1.54	-35%
1994-95	3	#DIV/0!	1.23	#DIV/0!

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Howe put up superb individual numbers (his career R-On is slightly better than Larry Robinson's) on teams that were, on average, below even at ES. As a result, Howe has the highest out-performance ratio of any defenseman in playoff history (minimum 100 games). Even if we lower the threshold to 50 games, he's only passed by five blueliners, and only one of them (Carl Brewer) would be taking tough matchups the way Howe did (I don't think that's true of, say, Janne Laukkanen and Garth Butcher). What also stands out is how crucial he was during each of his team's three longest playoff runs - again he posted superb numbers on teams that were, at best, even at ES. I was a bit of a skeptic when it came to Howe (I think highly of him, but I wasn't convinced he should be a shoe-in for the top 100), but this certainly boosts his case.

Norm Ullman

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1959-60	6	0.43	0.90	-52%
1960-61	11	0.71	1.00	-29%
1962-63	11	0.93	1.09	-14%
1963-64	14	1.09	0.76	43%
1964-65	7	0.67	0.50	33%
1965-66	12	1.00	1.50	-33%
1968-69	4	0.33	0.23	44%
1970-71	6	0.80	1.00	-20%
1971-72	5	0.25	0.63	-60%
1973-74	4	0.50	0.55	-8%
1974-75	7	-	0.64	-100%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Perhaps the biggest disappointment here. That's not to say that he's objectively worse than, say, Joe Thornton, but I always thought of Ullman as a good two-way player. His R-on is poor; a bit weaker than Thornton, Mahovlich, Selanne and H. Sedin. His teams, in general, were fairly weak too, so his relative performance isn't terrible (around the level of Robitaille, Federko and Mogilny) but it's still well below even.

Patrick Kane

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
2008-09	16	0.53	1.19	-56%
2009-10	22	0.91	1.60	-43%
2010-11	7	0.75	1.63	-54%
2011-12	6	1.33	0.70	90%
2012-13	23	1.47	1.31	12%
2013-14	19	1.38	0.88	58%
2014-15	23	1.54	1.09	41%
2015-16	7	0.83	1.13	-26%
2016-17	4	-	0.11	-100%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Just as I was getting on board the Patrick Kane bandwagon, I see these results. They're not terrible (Kane still has a slightly positive ES ratio overall), but he's well behind the rest of his team. Of the Blackhawks' three main stairs, Keith has by far the best ES ratio and Kane has by far the worst. His out-performance ratio falls right in the range of Ullman, Robitaille, Federko, etc. One argument in his favour - his results are very strong during that dominant stretch from 2013 to 2015 (two Cups and a conference finals).

Peter Stastny

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1980-81	5	0.67	0.55	22%
1981-82	12	1.11	0.64	74%
1982-83	4	2.00	0.33	500%
1983-84	9	1.50	0.81	85%
1984-85	18	1.13	0.83	36%
1985-86	3	0.17	0.60	-72%
1986-87	13	1.23	0.81	52%
1989-90	6	0.83	0.73	15%
1990-91	7	0.60	1.11	-46%
1991-92	7	1.10	1.00	10%
1992-93	5	1.00	0.50	100%
1993-94	4	-	1.17	-100%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Stastny falls under the "pleasant surprise" category. He generally played on weak teams (only made it out of the first round 4 times, and the second round twice). His R-On ratio is just below even but given the poor quality of his team, that represents a significant out-performance. Of the 356 forwards played in 80+ playoff games from 1960 onwards, Stastny had the 5th weakest team R-Off. His out-performance ratio, surprisingly, is on par with Beliveau, Lafleur, Kurri and Datsyuk.

Serge Savard

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1967-68	6	#DIV/0!	1.84	#DIV/0!
1968-69	14	1.17	1.67	-30%
1971-72	6	1.00	0.70	43%
1972-73	17	1.16	1.93	-40%
1973-74	6	0.55	1.29	-58%
1974-75	11	1.15	1.75	-34%
1975-76	13	2.88	1.11	159%
1976-77	14	1.92	3.50	-45%
1977-78	15	3.63	1.00	263%
1978-79	16	1.44	1.38	5%
1979-80	2	-	1.60	-100%
1980-81	3	-	0.57	-100%
1981-82	4	0.63	0.30	108%
1982-83	3	0.25	0.25	0%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Savard's career ratio is almost exactly even. His personal results are very strong (almost identical to Lidstrom, Pronger and Chara), but his teams were consistently excellent (the only defensemen with 100+ playoff games with a better R-Off environment were, basically, all of the Edmonton Oilers, players who were on the 1970s Habs, and Brian Rafalski). Savard's results are basically indistinguishable from longtime teammate Guy Lapointe (keeping in mind Savard had tougher match-ups and contributed more on the PK, while Lapointe contributed more with the man advantage). Another person who put up basically identical R-On and R-Off numbers - Kevin Lowe. I don't think Savard's numbers tell us much that we don't already know - Savard played at a very high level, but it's tricky to disentangle that from the strength of his team.

TABLE WITH CAREER NUMBERS

PLAYER	GAMES	R-ON	R-OFF	RATIO
Mark Howe	101	1.54	0.87	0.76
Dave Keon	92	1.24	0.74	0.67
Erik Karlsson	48	1.19	0.77	0.54
Bill Gadsby	44	1.12	0.79	0.42
Duncan Keith	126	1.30	0.96	0.35
Peter Stastny	93	0.97	0.75	0.29
Jarome Iginla	81	1.13	0.94	0.21
Brian Leetch	95	1.02	0.88	0.15
Eric Lindros	53	1.18	1.12	0.05
Martin St. Louis	107	1.01	1.02	(0.00)
Serge Savard	130	1.35	1.38	(0.02)
Patrick Kane	127	1.04	1.12	(0.07)
Norm Ullman	87	0.73	0.79	(0.08)
Joe Thornton	160	0.79	1.05	(0.25)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Batis]

It certainly is interesting that Stastny immediately excelled to the extent he did in the NHL, while other guys who outscored him in Czechoslovakia like Novy, Pouzar, Hlinka were nowhere close to that level upon coming to the NHL. They were older mind you, which was obviously one factor.

While the way Stastny hit the ground running in the NHL is very impressive I personally think that the age factor explains most of it. The difficulty of making the adjustments from the Eastern Bloc to the NHL at age 30+ like Novy and Hlinka had to do is in my opinion sometimes getting underrated. Now making those adjustments at age 24 like Stastny had to do must have been very difficult as well and the way he managed to do so deserves praise but I still believe that making those adjustments when you are still progressing as a player is far easier than when you already have started to decline. These two posts from Black Gold Extractor and Theokritos shows this very well in my opinion.

Edit: Just to extend on what DN28 posted above.

I suspect that we've been underestimating the difficulty of transitioning from Europe to North America once a player has reached a certain age. I looked up the points of every player since the O6 era who had their first NHL season at age 29 or older on H-R.com, sorted by adjusted points. The results were surprising (at least to me).

Rk	Player	Adj. PTS	Tm	Lg.	Pos	Season	Age	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	Benchmark	VsX (points)
1	Sergei Makarov*	72	CGY	NHL	RW	1989-90	31	80	24	62	86	33	129	66.7
2	Marian Stastny	65	QUE	NHL	RW	1981-82	29	74	35	54	89	-5	147	60.5
3	Ivan Hlinka	44	VAN	NHL	C	1981-82	32	72	23	37	60	21	147	40.8
4	Ed Hoekstra	39	PHI	NHL	C	1967-68	30	70	15	21	36	5	84	42.9
5	Milan Novy	38	WSH	NHL	C	1982-83	31	73	18	30	48	4	124	38.7
6	Igor Larionov*	37	VAN	NHL	C	1989-90	29	74	17	27	44	-5	129	34.1
7	Lubomir Sekeras	37	MIN	NHL	D	2000-01	32	80	11	23	34	-8	96	35.4
8	Viacheslav Fetisov*	35	NJD	NHL	D	1989-90	31	72	8	34	42	9	129	32.6
9	Gene Ubriaco	35	PIT	NHL	C	1967-68	30	65	18	15	33	-11	84	39.3
10	Bob Barlow	33	MNS	NHL	C	1969-70	34	70	16	17	33	-4	86	38.4
11	Jiri Dopita	31	PHI	NHL	C	2001-02	33	52	11	16	27	9	90	30.0
12	Bill Sutherland	31	PHI	NHL	LW	1967-68	33	60	20	9	29	1	84	34.5
13	Miroslav Dvorak	30	PHI	NHL	D	1982-83	31	80	4	33	37	28	124	29.8
14	Jaroslav Hlinka	30	COL	NHL	LW	2007-08	31	63	8	20	28	6	106	26.4
15	Lars-Erik Sjoberg	29	WIN	NHL	D	1979-80	35	79	7	27	34	-33	119	28.6
16	Vladimir Krutov	28	VAN	NHL	LW	1989-90	29	61	11	23	34	-5	129	26.4
17	Cliff Schmautz	28	TOT	NHL	RW	1970-71	31	57	13	19	32	-8	90	35.6
18	Jaroslav Pouzar	27	EDM	NHL	LW	1982-83	31	74	15	18	33	18	124	26.6
19	Bob Fitchner	26	QUE	NHL	C	1979-80	29	70	11	20	31	-24	119	26.1
20	Ilja Byakin	25	EDM	NHL	D	1993-94	30	44	8	20	28	-3	120	23.3

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Only Marian Stastny (former Czech league scoring champion) had more raw points. Marian Stastny and Sergei Makarov were the only age 29+ first season players who scored more than 60 points. Makarov had the best VsX score and best +/- of any age 29+ first season players.

Let's see. Which forwards who came to the NHL from the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia between the mid-1970s and early 1990s had the most impact? Probably these players:

Jaromír Jágr – 18-19 in his first NHL season. At his best #1 scorer in the league. Multiple Art Ross trophies.
Aleksandr Mogilny – 20-21 in his first NHL season. At his best #7 scorer in the league. Best goal scorer in 1993.
Pavel Bure – 20 in his first NHL season. At his best #2 scorer in the league. Best goal scorer multiple times.
Sergey Fyodorov – 20-21 in his first NHL season. At his best #2 in league scoring while being Selke-calibre defensively. Hart winner.
Žigmund Pálffy – 21-22 in his first season in NA. At his best #9 in league scoring.
Peter Šťastný – 24 in his first NHL season. At his best #2 in league scoring. One of the best NHL scorers of the 1980s.

For comparison, here are the most prominent players from the same two countries whose NHL impact was limited or at least below exceptations:

Igor Larionov – 28-29 in his first NHL season. At his best #42 in league scoring as a good two-way center.
Václav Nedomanský – 30 in his first season in NA. Never top 10 in WHA scoring.
Milan Nový – 31 in his first (and last) NHL season. #130 in league scoring.
Sergey Makarov – 31 in his first NHL season. At his best #27 in league scoring.
Ivan Hlinka – 31-32 in his first NHL season. At his best #81 in league scoring.

Players from the second group impressed fans and teammates with their skill level, but didn't have the scoring impact the younger group had. You don't see a pattern there?

Again, I'm not saying 20 and 24 is the same. While still being young, Šťastný already had a few years of experience in international hockey under his belt. That's certainly one of the main reasons he was able to hit the ground running in the NHL while players who were even younger like Bure or Jágr took a little more time to improve over the course of their first two (or so) seasons.

 

[overpass]

I went and found the actual quote. Overpass originally posted it during the defensemen project. It's actually far more damning of Mark Howe than I remembered, specifically comparing him unfavorably to Chelios, Pronger, and Leetch:

This is what overpass said about Howe (minus the usage tables which were destroyed in the migration:

​

It’s true that Mark Howe did not play as much on special teams than most Norris-contending defencemen. But there is another defenceman on this list who also had relatively low special teams usage—Larry Robinson. Robinson had 49% PP usage and 45% PK usage over 1384 NHL games. Howe had 59% PP usage and 40% PK usage over 929 NHL games.

Special teams roles - 1960-2017

Howe, like Robinson, had an extremely strong plus-minus record at even strength. He was +400 in the regular season and +42 in the playoffs, on teams that were basically even with him off the ice.

Some credit should also go to his partner Brad McCrimmon, but Howe was the leader of the partnership. Howe was +195 in the regular season and +22 in the playoffs over the three seasons they played as partners (1984-85 to 1986-87), so he was at his best with McCrimmon, but he was still over +200 in the rest of his NHL career. When Howe nearly won the 1982-83 Norris, he was partnered with semi-goon Glen Cochrane.

Also, something you’ll miss just by looking at seasonal stats—Howe was the best rushing defenceman in the NHL for the calendar year of 1980 before his major injury, and would almost certainly have won an imaginary regular season award for best defenceman of 1980, with 25 goals and 94 points in 79 games. Yeah I know it may seem a bit random to look at a calendar year, but it’s the period of time between Howe learning a new position and almost having his career ended with a gruesome injury.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?agg...r=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=points,goals,assists

 

[Captain Bowie]

Overseeing the Out-House: Serge Savard & Joe Thornton. I guess Savard has some playoff beasting to distinguish himself (markedly) from Thornton... but not a single Norris podium, ever?! Hate to have to choose between these two. Hopefully, it won't be relevant.

===HUGE GAP===

Jarome Iginla. Finally. Inarguable Alpha and Boss of his team. What he could have accomplished with just a little bit of help is almost beyond imagination. I mean- just look at what the hell he had to work with.

I find the gap between these two interesting (read: Baffling).

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I find the gap between these two interesting (read: Baffling).

Got me wondering this hypothetical: Is there any point in time where any GM in the league not named Mike O'Connell would have traded Thornton for Iginla?

 

[wetcoast]

If he played for the Rangers he'd have had better numbers. And the Rangers would have been a better team.

Toronto was all defense in the 60's. Keon pretty much being their version of Henri Richard.

This isn't based on reality though, Keon had plenty of seasons as the top or one of the top SOG for the Leafs.

Sure the Rangers would have been better with Keon than without him but his playoff resume would no doubt be worse than it is.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Got me wondering this hypothetical: Is there any point in time where any GM in the league not named Mike O'Connell would have traded Thornton for Iginla?

Certainly not at any point after about 2003.

 

[wetcoast]

It certainly is interesting that Stastny immediately excelled to the extent he did in the NHL, while other guys who outscored him in Czechoslovakia like Novy, Pouzar, Hlinka were nowhere close to that level upon coming to the NHL. They were older mind you, which was obviously one factor.

Hlinka just didn't have the self motivation when he came to Vancouver.

We saw glimpses of his skill but his effort level just didn't match the skill level

I think one of the reasons that Stastny did so well, besides youth and his skillset was that he defected and that takes motivation and drive.


Stastny was a solid 2nd(basically first since Wayne Gretzky is #1) in points over his first 8 years in the NHL.

He played with grit, was a good playoff performer and would look very in place on a top 100 of all time list.



Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Any strong opinions on Sid Abel? I like him for advancement in this round. One thing that makes him stand out to me at this stage is that he's a player with no identifiable weaknesses to his case.

Peak play. Abel's best season is as good as anyone else's. A Hart Trophy win in 1948-49 in which he led the NHL goals and was third in points. Bill Durnan was the only challenger to Abel in Hart voting, so a fairly strong win I would say.

Prime. Abel never finished lower than 7th in the scoring race over a four year span that saw him collect three AST nominations, two of them 1st team. He also placed 5th in the scoring race in 1941-42, before the league was significantly weakened by the war. 2nd AST at LW that season, a position he played prior to the wartime interruption of his career.

Longevity. Strong for his era. He was an all-star 10 seasons apart. He was still a great player upon being sold to Chicago in 1952-53. His numbers dropped off sharply, but Abel was player-coach and his focus therefore split. The next season he only appeared in a few games, electing to focus mainly on coaching. Chicago made the playoffs for the first time in a long time in Abel's first season there.

Leadership. Abel was considered the leader of the Red Wings. He was named captain in 1942-43 at the young age of 24, a position he held for the remainder of his career in Detroit. Upon moving to C after the war, Abel was given promising youngsters Ted Lindsay and Gordie Howe as his wingers. Under his guidance, the trio quickly formed into one of the most dominant lines of all time. Even as late as 1949-50, when Lindsay won the Art Ross, Abel was the leading Red Wings player in Hart balloting.

Well Rounded. Abel was both a great goal scorer and strong playmaker. He has finishes of 1st and 3rd in goals, as well as six top-5 finishes in assists. No doubt utilizing the skill set that made him a great winger, Abel was known to go into the corners to dig out pucks to feed to Howe and Lindsay even after moving to centre. He was considered a hard hitter and also generally acknowledged as the more defense-oriented member of the Production Line.

War Years. Abel established himself as a star player before the war, and didn't miss a beat upon returning. His service cost him his age 25-27 seasons, which are generally an athlete's athletic peak years. Abel managing to turn in 8 seasons where his play ranged from star player to MVP-level is quite impressive considering he lost these prime seasons.

Playoffs. Abel's playoff resume is pretty solid. He was Detroit's second-leading scorer behind Carl Liscombe when they won the Stanley Cup in 1943. A little quiet in the years immediately after the war, but the Production Line got rolling by 1949. The trio were the Red Wings' three best scorers in their playoff campaign, which ended with a Finals loss to Toronto. With Gordie Howe out injured in 1950, Abel was Detroit's leading goal scorer as they were finally able to knock off the Leafs and then defeat the Rangers for the Stanley Cup. Abel tied with Howe for the team scoring lead in 1951, though the Bruins upset them. He was great along with the rest of his team in 1952, Detroit winning the Stanley Cup in perfect 8-0 fashion. Overall, a very strong contributor to three Stanley Cups, and won with two completely different rosters.

At a stage of the project where many of the candidates have an obvious weakness or two, Abel checks every box. A strong and consistent career from a versatile player.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Any strong opinions on Sid Abel? I like him for advancement in this round. One thing that makes him stand out to me at this stage is that he's a player with no identifiable weaknesses to his case.

Peak play. Abel's best season is as good as anyone else's. A Hart Trophy win in 1948-49 in which he led the NHL goals and was third in points. Bill Durnan was the only challenger to Abel in Hart voting, so a fairly strong win I would say.

Prime. Abel never finished lower than 7th in the scoring race over a four year span that saw him collect three AST nominations, two of them 1st team. He also placed 5th in the scoring race in 1941-42, before the league was significantly weakened by the war. 2nd AST at LW that season, a position he played prior to the wartime interruption of his career.

Longevity. Strong for his era. He was an all-star 10 seasons apart. He was still a great player upon being sold to Chicago in 1952-53. His numbers dropped off sharply, but Abel was player-coach and his focus therefore split. The next season he only appeared in a few games, electing to focus mainly on coaching. Chicago made the playoffs for the first time in a long time in Abel's first season there.

Leadership. Abel was considered the leader of the Red Wings. He was named captain in 1942-43 at the young age of 24, a position he held for the remainder of his career in Detroit. Upon moving to C after the war, Abel was given promising youngsters Ted Lindsay and Gordie Howe as his wingers. Under his guidance, the trio quickly formed into one of the most dominant lines of all time. Even as late as 1949-50, when Lindsay won the Art Ross, Abel was the leading Red Wings player in Hart balloting.

Well Rounded. Abel was both a great goal scorer and strong playmaker. He has finishes of 1st and 3rd in goals, as well as six top-5 finishes in assists. No doubt utilizing the skill set that made him a great winger, Abel was known to go into the corners to dig out pucks to feed to Howe and Lindsay even after moving to centre. He was considered a hard hitter and also generally acknowledged as the more defense-oriented member of the Production Line.

War Years. Abel established himself as a star player before the war, and didn't miss a beat upon returning. His service cost him his age 25-27 seasons, which are generally an athlete's athletic peak years. Abel managing to turn in 8 seasons where his play ranged from star player to MVP-level is quite impressive considering he lost these prime seasons.

Playoffs. Abel's playoff resume is pretty solid. He was Detroit's second-leading scorer behind Carl Liscombe when they won the Stanley Cup in 1943. A little quiet in the years immediately after the war, but the Production Line got rolling by 1949. The trio were the Red Wings' three best scorers in their playoff campaign, which ended with a Finals loss to Toronto. With Gordie Howe out injured in 1950, Abel was Detroit's leading goal scorer as they were finally able to knock off the Leafs and then defeat the Rangers for the Stanley Cup. Abel tied with Howe for the team scoring lead in 1951, though the Bruins upset them. He was great along with the rest of his team in 1952, Detroit winning the Stanley Cup in perfect 8-0 fashion. Overall, a very strong contributor to three Stanley Cups, and won with two completely different rosters.

At a stage of the project where many of the candidates have an obvious weakness or two, Abel checks every box. A strong and consistent career from a versatile player.

Excellent overview touching Sid Abel's career.

His career as a player-coach, later coach touches two of the candidates as well.

1952-53 with Chicago and Bill Gadsby the Hawks extend the Canadiens to seven games. Eventually Gadsby would play for Red Wing SC finalist teams coached by Abel in 1963, 1964 and 1966.

Taking over from Jimmy Skinner midway in 1957-58, he split Ullman and Howe permanently.Previous season the Howe/Lindsay/Ullman line had set the scoring record for a line during the RS.