Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 19

[vadim sharifijanov]

I went and found the actual quote. Overpass originally posted it during the defensemen project. It's actually far more damning of Mark Howe than I remembered, specifically comparing him unfavorably to Chelios, Pronger, and Leetch:

This is what overpass said about Howe (minus the usage tables which were destroyed in the migration:

Howe's special teams usage is a bit lower than one would expect, based on his reputation. I guess he was just more of a skating/transition/even-strength player.

Howe was listed at 5'11", 185 lbs. Every great penalty killing defenceman (post-expansion) has been bigger. Most have been 6'2 or taller. Among the shorter ones were Ray Bourque (5'11, 220 lbs) and Chris Chelios (6'0, 191 lbs).

Howe was also a much better offensive player at even strength than on the power play. His skating would have been more of an advantage at even strength. He used his great wrist shot more than a slap shot, but maybe this wasn't as good a fit for the power play?

Here are the year-by-year special teams numbers for Howe, as well as his rank among defenceman on his team and who he was behind, if anyone. Keeping in mind that single season numbers are imprecise...


*Howe played forward on the PK this season.

Edit: Another factor, at least during the Mike Keenan years of 84/85 to 87/88, might have been the fact that Keenan preferred to go with four defencemen as much as possible in Philadelphia. So he wouldn't want to play one defenceman on special teams too much, to avoid messing up the rotation.

the bolded is interesting. i wonder which season... i'm assuming 1986 when he scored six SHG?

but actually, man his SH scoring in his five year norris prime in philly is amazing even for a forward. 21 SHG + 8 SHA.

Got me wondering this hypothetical: Is there any point in time where any GM in the league not named Mike O'Connell would have traded Thornton for Iginla?

Certainly not at any point after about 2003.

disagree. i bet there were plenty of GMs that would have happily swapped them straight up as late as 2011, if not later due to both players' reputations, if he was the one losing surfer joe and getting iginla.

 

[VMBM]

It certainly is interesting that Stastny immediately excelled to the extent he did in the NHL, while other guys who outscored him in Czechoslovakia like Novy, Pouzar, Hlinka were nowhere close to that level upon coming to the NHL. They were older mind you, which was obviously one factor.

I don't think it's only one factor, it's the main factor. The big reason Novy, Pouzar and Hlinka were allowed to go to the NHL in the first place was that they weren't considered indispensable - or not even good enough - for the national team (and to lesser extent, their club teams) anymore. For example, the last time Hlinka had been a big factor on the national team was at the 1979 World Championship, and his first NHL season was only in 1981-82. I think it also helped Peter Stastny that his brother Anton defected at the same time and they played on the same team/line (and later they were joined by their brother Marian too).

Of course one can also suspect that Peter Stastny had the suitable qualities for the NHL maybe moreso than most of his fellow Czechoslovak stars, especially size.

 

[VMBM]

Valeri Vasiliev- Suppose what I like about Vasiliev is that he strikes me as the kind of guy who could take it to you any way you want to play it. Trained purpose-specific for the International Ice- but retained a hardness that translated well to the smaller surface(s).

I'll give him that he would have almost certainly succeeded in the NHL. However, to me it seems that these players with 'North American attributes' are sometimes being given too many extra points here.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

And if the rest of [Karlsson's] career plays out like, say, Mike Green's has, what's the worst we're going to rank a guy with two Norrises and two runner-ups?

Well, I know they're two different kinds of players- but if Karlsson out-Langways Langway for career drop off, I'd have to consider putting him... you know- behind Langway.

I find the gap between [Iginla and Thornton interesting (read: Baffling).

A case for best-in-the-world at his position over the course of more than half-a-dozen years vs. a case for best-in-the-world at his position for maybe 1+.

I'll give him that [Vasiliev] would have almost certainly succeeded in the NHL. However, to me it seems that these players with 'North American attributes' are sometimes being given too many extra points here.

I think you touched on something pretty important here- but I think the other side of the portal is where you find the better vantage-point. Players who are trained in the International Game and succeed wildly in the International Game, but are not as good at the North American Game are uniformly underrated or ignored completely- as though it's their fault that that they weren't trained to compete in that manner. Project's almost over, can't do anything about that now- spilt milk and all that.

By my count, we're now discussing 17 players who occupy the territory south of Martinec. However, we don't have the option of reviewing Martinec this Round. We DO have the option of assessing Vasiliev. And Vasiliev is very much in-the-mix in this particular group. He almost certainly won't advance this Round, but I really hope he gets consideration next Vote. His omission from a top-100 list would say more about ourselves than it would say about Vasiliev.

 

[ted2019]

The main problem I have with Mark Howe is that he struggled to string together a number of healthy seasons when he was in his prime. As a result, his Norris record is somewhat disappointing compared to other defensemen this round (other than Serge Savard, who is generally considered better than his Norris record mainly due to his defensive role for a dynasty).

Norris records of NHL defensemen this round
(min 2 top 3 votes)

Bill Gadsby

53-54: 3rd
55-56: 2nd
56-57: 4th
57-58: 2nd
58-59: 2nd
59-60: 6th
60-61: 10th
62-63: 5th
64-65: 3rd
65-66: 11th

Overall: 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 11

Serge Savard

72-73: 6th
74-75: 5th
75-76: 5th
76-77: 5th
77-78: 8th
78-79: 4th

Overall: 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, 8

Mark Howe

79-80: 5th
80-81: 11th
82-83: 2nd
84-85: 6th
85-86: 2nd
86-87: 2nd
87-88: 9th

Overall: 2, 2, 2, 5, 6, 9, 11


Brian Leetch

88-89: 11th
90-91: 4th
91-92: 1st
93-94: 5th
95-96: 3rd
96-97: 1st
98-99: 8th
00-01: 5th
03-04: 11th

Overall: 1, 1, 3, 4, 5, 5, 8, 11, 11

Duncan Keith

07-08: 11th
08-09: 6th
09-10: 1st
10-11: 9th
12-13: 6th
13-14: 1st
14-15: 7th
15-16: 11th
16-17: 4th

Overall: 1, 1, 4, 6, 6, 7, 9, 11, 11

_____________

A smaller problem I have with Mark Howe is that when Mike Keenan was discussing the few straight #1 defensemen he had - defensemen capable of playing #1 minutes across all 3 special teams, he mentioned Brian Leetch and Chris Pronger but not Mark Howe. Perhaps because Howe was something of an even strength specialist, but I don't know if he was ever a top notch PP QB?

Mark Howe's in his prime from 1982-83 season to 1987-88, he played in 441 games out of 480 ( so he played in 91.8% of the games played). Howe was an incredible 2 way defenseman who could skate ( not as well as Coffey mind you), play positional defense ( wasn't much of a hitter). Howe was the #1 defenseman on a team that went to 2 finals during his prime ( lost to the dynasty known as the Oilers and in both finals, injures hurt the Flyers really bad, especially in 86-87 and they still took Edmonton to 7 games).

 

[overpass]

the bolded is interesting. i wonder which season... i'm assuming 1986 when he scored six SHG?

but actually, man his SH scoring in his five year norris prime in philly is amazing even for a forward. 21 SHG + 8 SHA.

1982-83 was the season that Howe played forward on the PK for part of the year. After that he was strictly a defenceman.

Yeah, he was still a very good shorthanded scorer from the defence position, maybe the best ever, with great wheels and and hockey sense and the hands of a scoring winger.

 

[Nick Hansen]

By the way, it is nice to see that Niedermayer didn't show up. Great player but media pumped him up too big.

 

[ted2019]

The main problem I have with Mark Howe is that he struggled to string together a number of healthy seasons when he was in his prime. As a result, his Norris record is somewhat disappointing compared to other defensemen this round (other than Serge Savard, who is generally considered better than his Norris record mainly due to his defensive role for a dynasty).

Norris records of NHL defensemen this round
(min 2 top 3 votes)

Bill Gadsby

53-54: 3rd
55-56: 2nd
56-57: 4th
57-58: 2nd
58-59: 2nd
59-60: 6th
60-61: 10th
62-63: 5th
64-65: 3rd
65-66: 11th

Overall: 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 11

Serge Savard

72-73: 6th
74-75: 5th
75-76: 5th
76-77: 5th
77-78: 8th
78-79: 4th

Overall: 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, 8

Mark Howe

79-80: 5th
80-81: 11th
82-83: 2nd
84-85: 6th
85-86: 2nd
86-87: 2nd
87-88: 9th

Overall: 2, 2, 2, 5, 6, 9, 11


Brian Leetch

88-89: 11th
90-91: 4th
91-92: 1st
93-94: 5th
95-96: 3rd
96-97: 1st
98-99: 8th
00-01: 5th
03-04: 11th

Overall: 1, 1, 3, 4, 5, 5, 8, 11, 11

Duncan Keith

07-08: 11th
08-09: 6th
09-10: 1st
10-11: 9th
12-13: 6th
13-14: 1st
14-15: 7th
15-16: 11th
16-17: 4th

Overall: 1, 1, 4, 6, 6, 7, 9, 11, 11

_____________

A smaller problem I have with Mark Howe is that when Mike Keenan was discussing the few straight #1 defensemen he had - defensemen capable of playing #1 minutes across all 3 special teams, he mentioned Brian Leetch and Chris Pronger but not Mark Howe. Perhaps because Howe was something of an even strength specialist, but I don't know if he was ever a top notch PP QB?

Howe had Roughly a 33.7 % of his points as a Flyer came on the PP and in the short time he was in Detroit, he had 45.3% of his points on the PP.

 

[ted2019]

Courtesy of Leafs Forever Bio:

He instead relied on a high skill level. He was a constant scorer and playmaker in the WHA. He relied on his strong hockey sense and puck handling skills-Joe Pelletier
His vision of the ice plus his elite intelligence allowed him to control the game like a quarterback.-Joe Pelletier
Blessed with excellent skating, speed and agility, his defensive approach was definitely more finesse than physical. His uncanny ice vision and tremendous passing allowed him to control the game. He added a valuable dimension to a physical Flyers defense - he provided the ability to rush the puck out of the zone or make a beautiful break out pass.-Joe Pelletier
"He's not real physical, but he doesn't have to be. He's so mobile he always gets a piece of you, just enough to throw you off the puck."-Bobby Clarke
He is an unselfish hockey player. He could score a lot more goals if he gambled a little more offensively, but he's so dedicated defensively, he's so concerned about the defensive side of the game, that's the most important thing to him. I think he could be leading this league by 20 points if not for the fact that he's such a conscientious defensive hockey player.-Former coach of this player
The only Flyer defenseman who has the speed to match Gretzky's is Mark Howe. His performance—and Howe has been spectacular in the playoffs—will be the key to keeping Gretzky off a spree. Howe, along with Edmonton's Paul Coffey, is probably the finest skating defenseman in the NHL. Unlike Coffey, he seldom gets so involved in his team's offensive thrusts that he is out of position defensively. Howe is also accustomed to an inordinate amount of ice time, especially now that XXX is out for the duration with a separated left shoulder. Look for XXX to have Howe on the ice whenever Gretzky's there.-Sports Illustrated Finals preview, 1985

Since Nov. 21, when Philadelphia penalty killers were the second worst in the league with 22 goals allowed in 80 shorthanded situations, the Flyers have moved to first place in that department, giving up 11 goals in 127 chances. More impressive, over a 22-game span, from Dec. 26 through Feb. 13, the Flyers allowed only seven goals in man-down situations while scoring eight shorthanded goals. In other words, their penalty-killing unit was plus one.
"The key is Mark Howe," says [Flyers’ coach] of his top defenseman. "In late November, Howe came to me and said that when he was with the Whalers he sometimes killed penalties as a forward and he thought he could help us doing that. I moved him up with Bobby Clarke. With Clarkie's puck-handling ability and Howe's breakaway speed, they not only kill penalties but they actually give us a scoring threat." At week's end Howe had five shorthanded goals, which tied him for the league lead. -Sports Illustrated, March 7, 1983


Awards and Achievements
3 x NHL First Team All-Star defenceman (1983, 1986, 1987)
3 x Norris Trophy Runner-Up (1983 to langway who he beat in all-star voting, 1986 to Coffey who broke Orr's scoring record that year, 1987 to Ray Bourque)
2 x Stanley Cup Finalist (1985, 1987)
1 x WHA First Team All-Star left wing (1979)
1 x WHA Second Team All-Star left wing (1974)
1 x WHA Second Team All-Star defenceman (1977)
1 x Olympic Silver Medalist (1972)

Top 20s

Points Amongst defenceman- 1st(1980)10th (1981), 19th (1982) 8th(1983), 16th(1984), 13th(1985), 2nd(1986), 10th(1987), 7th(1988)

Playoff Goals Amongst defenceman- 5th(1985), 11th(1987), 7th(1988)

Playoff Assists Amongst defenceman- 5th(1985), 3rd(1987), 13th(1988), 2nd(1989)

Playoff Points amongst defenceman- 4th(1985), 4th(1987), 10th(1988), 3rd(1989)

Biography
Mark Howe began his pro career in the WHA with the Houston Aeros. He would remain there for four seasons before moving onto the Hartford Whalers. During his time in the WHA, he would get to play on a line with his father and brother- a highlight in his career.

Mark Howe would truly star in the WHA, and was considered one of it's best players. When the WHA folded into the NHL, he would be protected and kept on the Whalers team. Early in his NHL career, however, he would suffer one of the worst injuries in hockey history- he would impale himself on a goal post, no longeru sed due to the injury. The injury was very serious, and narrowly missed his spine which would have likely caused him to never play again.

He would fortunately recover however, and spend three seasons in Hartford before moving to Philadelphia Flyers in a blockbuster trade as a defenceman. It would be here where he would truly shine, becoming one of the league's best defenceman of the 80s, coming runner-up for the norris three times an a deep era for defenceman. His skills were very important to the Flyers team, who would twice make the cup finals with Howe and be defeated by the Oilers dynasty.​

 

[ted2019]

Curious on where folks think about Toe Blake this round. Is he comparable to Iginla?

 

[seventieslord]

Well, I know they're two different kinds of players- but if Karlsson out-Langways Langway for career drop off, I'd have to consider putting him... you know- behind Langway.

I'm not sure that answers the question, though, because beyond the two Norrises, 2-2 is a lot more significant than 3-5 already.

 

[seventieslord]

By the way, it is nice to see that Niedermayer didn't show up. Great player but media pumped him up too big.

He became an all-time great eventually. I think he was appropriately recognized from 2004-2008, so good on him, but the problem was this sudden mindset that he was always that good, right from the start. His "current" greatness began to be projected backwards. Everyone forgot that he took a long time to become as dominant as he was, and prior to that he wasn't all that great.

 

[wetcoast]

By the way, it is nice to see that Niedermayer didn't show up. Great player but media pumped him up too big.

Well we do have the ATD version of Niedermeyer in Firsov so at this point there are probably 100+ players with better resumes not in yet including Niedermeyer who probably won't come up for voting.

 

[ted2019]

I'm going to try and come up with a mid-week list top 4.
1. Nels Stewart. He was my highest last round that didn't get in, so I have to put him here.
2. Mark Howe. I'm sure that I will have him higher then most here, but I saw him play basically every game as a Flyer growing up and he was out there for every important shift, whether it was ES/PP/PK. That should tell you something.
3. Eric Lindros. Most dominating player I've ever seen. Had a tremendous peak ( even though injures shortened it) Dominated even as an 18 year old in the Olympics.
4. Eddie Gerard: Has been underrated and should have be in the voting before now.

Middle of the pack ( no particular order) Dave Keon/Joe Thornton/Peter Stastny/Serge Savard/Sid Abel/Valeri Vasiliev/Martin St. Louis/Bill Gadsby

The rest no particular order) Erik Karlsson/Jarome Iginla/Toe Blake/Norm Ullman/Patrick Kane/Tony Esposito/Brian Leetch/Duncan Keith

 

[DannyGallivan]

He became an all-time great eventually. I think he was appropriately recognized from 2004-2008, so good on him, but the problem was this sudden mindset that he was always that good, right from the start. His "current" greatness began to be projected backwards. Everyone forgot that he took a long time to become as dominant as he was, and prior to that he wasn't all that great.

Well, he did crack my top 120... closer to 120 than 100, though.

 

[Nick Hansen]

I'm going to try and come up with a mid-week list top 4.
1. Nels Stewart. He was my highest last round that didn't get in, so I have to put him here.
2. Mark Howe. I'm sure that I will have him higher then most here, but I saw him play basically every game as a Flyer growing up and he was out there for every important shift, whether it was ES/PP/PK. That should tell you something.
3. Eric Lindros. Most dominating player I've ever seen. Had a tremendous peak ( even though injures shortened it) Dominated even as an 18 year old in the Olympics.
4. Zdeno Chara. Big Z does a lot of things that can't be quantified.

Big Z already was voted in, for spot #89.

 

[ted2019]

Big Z already was voted in, for spot #89.

Saw my mistake and fixed it. Working off of 2 different pages.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i think i'm seeing a lot of similarities between mark howe and duncan keith. great skating defensemen, not especially physical but great positionally, not really A+ offensive guys but extremely good in transition, QBed the PP but not in the upper echelon of guys who did it.

if niedermayer's peak was twice as long, i'd probably have him in that conversation too, though i think he'd still be third out of those three.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

One thing I realized earlier this week is that, with 20 nominees vying for 11 remaining spots, and a highly limited number of additional nominees to come on line in the next two Rounds, the last word on the Top-100 will probably rest with one of the players we're discussing now.

Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion.

All right- and having reminded myself of this, I went into self-assessment mode and worked out how much I'd be willing to move up or down on each nominee. Four clear breaks manifested themselves...

Iginla
Vasiliev
Leetch
Abel
Lindros
Gadsby
Keith
(medium-hard break)
Toe Blake
Kane
Tony Esposito
Gerard
(hard break)
Mark Howe
Ullman
Nels Stewart
Keon
St Louis
(hard break)
Št'astný
Thornton
Serge Savard
(hard break)
Karlsson

... and there's more to it than that, as I've discovered that some players I have higher-rated than others, I'm more willing to move downwards. And vice-versa, of course. Hope to discuss each grouping in turn sometime soon.

[edit- I f***ing forgot Abel, who definitely has a place in my top tier...]

 

[blogofmike]

i think i'm seeing a lot of similarities between mark howe and duncan keith. great skating defensemen, not especially physical but great positionally, not really A+ offensive guys but extremely good in transition, QBed the PP but not in the upper echelon of guys who did it.

if niedermayer's peak was twice as long, i'd probably have him in that conversation too, though i think he'd still be third out of those three.

I had Niedermayer at #109, behind those guys and Karlsson/Leetch. Beyond the Ducks run mentioned by 70s, he also had good runs that helped the Devils win Cups. Leading the NHL playoffs in points in 2003 for example is part of a really good run that no one remembers, though he was big in the last two series against Ottawa and Anaheim.

​

He instead relied on a high skill level. He was a constant scorer and playmaker in the WHA. He relied on his strong hockey sense and puck handling skills-Joe Pelletier
His vision of the ice plus his elite intelligence allowed him to control the game like a quarterback.-Joe Pelletier
Blessed with excellent skating, speed and agility, his defensive approach was definitely more finesse than physical. His uncanny ice vision and tremendous passing allowed him to control the game. He added a valuable dimension to a physical Flyers defense - he provided the ability to rush the puck out of the zone or make a beautiful break out pass.-Joe Pelletier
"He's not real physical, but he doesn't have to be. He's so mobile he always gets a piece of you, just enough to throw you off the puck."-Bobby Clarke
He is an unselfish hockey player. He could score a lot more goals if he gambled a little more offensively, but he's so dedicated defensively, he's so concerned about the defensive side of the game, that's the most important thing to him. I think he could be leading this league by 20 points if not for the fact that he's such a conscientious defensive hockey player.-Former coach of this player
The only Flyer defenseman who has the speed to match Gretzky's is Mark Howe. His performance—and Howe has been spectacular in the playoffs—will be the key to keeping Gretzky off a spree. Howe, along with Edmonton's Paul Coffey, is probably the finest skating defenseman in the NHL. Unlike Coffey, he seldom gets so involved in his team's offensive thrusts that he is out of position defensively. Howe is also accustomed to an inordinate amount of ice time, especially now that XXX is out for the duration with a separated left shoulder. Look for XXX to have Howe on the ice whenever Gretzky's there.-Sports Illustrated Finals preview, 1985

Since Nov. 21, when Philadelphia penalty killers were the second worst in the league with 22 goals allowed in 80 shorthanded situations, the Flyers have moved to first place in that department, giving up 11 goals in 127 chances. More impressive, over a 22-game span, from Dec. 26 through Feb. 13, the Flyers allowed only seven goals in man-down situations while scoring eight shorthanded goals. In other words, their penalty-killing unit was plus one.
"The key is Mark Howe," says [Flyers’ coach] of his top defenseman. "In late November, Howe came to me and said that when he was with the Whalers he sometimes killed penalties as a forward and he thought he could help us doing that. I moved him up with Bobby Clarke. With Clarkie's puck-handling ability and Howe's breakaway speed, they not only kill penalties but they actually give us a scoring threat." At week's end Howe had five shorthanded goals, which tied him for the league lead. -Sports Illustrated, March 7, 1983


Awards and Achievements
3 x NHL First Team All-Star defenceman (1983, 1986, 1987)
3 x Norris Trophy Runner-Up (1983 to langway who he beat in all-star voting, 1986 to Coffey who broke Orr's scoring record that year, 1987 to Ray Bourque)
2 x Stanley Cup Finalist (1985, 1987)
1 x WHA First Team All-Star left wing (1979)
1 x WHA Second Team All-Star left wing (1974)
1 x WHA Second Team All-Star defenceman (1977)
1 x Olympic Silver Medalist (1972)

Top 20s

Points Amongst defenceman- 1st(1980)10th (1981), 19th (1982) 8th(1983), 16th(1984), 13th(1985), 2nd(1986), 10th(1987), 7th(1988)

Playoff Goals Amongst defenceman- 5th(1985), 11th(1987), 7th(1988)

Playoff Assists Amongst defenceman- 5th(1985), 3rd(1987), 13th(1988), 2nd(1989)

Playoff Points amongst defenceman- 4th(1985), 4th(1987), 10th(1988), 3rd(1989)

Biography
Mark Howe began his pro career in the WHA with the Houston Aeros. He would remain there for four seasons before moving onto the Hartford Whalers. During his time in the WHA, he would get to play on a line with his father and brother- a highlight in his career.

Mark Howe would truly star in the WHA, and was considered one of it's best players. When the WHA folded into the NHL, he would be protected and kept on the Whalers team. Early in his NHL career, however, he would suffer one of the worst injuries in hockey history- he would impale himself on a goal post, no longeru sed due to the injury. The injury was very serious, and narrowly missed his spine which would have likely caused him to never play again.

He would fortunately recover however, and spend three seasons in Hartford before moving to Philadelphia Flyers in a blockbuster trade as a defenceman. It would be here where he would truly shine, becoming one of the league's best defenceman of the 80s, coming runner-up for the norris three times an a deep era for defenceman. His skills were very important to the Flyers team, who would twice make the cup finals with Howe and be defeated by the Oilers dynasty.​

​

I am also high on Howe, though maybe not quite as high. For the r-on/r-off crowd, I believe Mark Howe's 1985-86 score beats the best of Bobby Orr.
​

 

[Captain Bowie]

A case for best-in-the-world at his position over the course of more than half-a-dozen years vs. a case for best-in-the-world at his position for maybe 1+.

Iginla's competition at RW (02-11):
Martin St. Louis (Eligible for #91-100)
Daniel Alfredsson
Marian Hossa
Teemu Selanne (2ndANA/SJS version) (#69)
Hejduk/Kovalev/Gaborik

Thornton's competition at C (03-16):
Sidney Crosby (#12)
Henrik Sedin
Pavel Datsyuk
Evgeni Malkin (#52)
Ryan Getzlaf
Nicklas Backstrom
Spezza/Richards/Lecavalier/Staal/Kopitar/Bergeron

Not really all that comparable.

 

[Captain Bowie]

disagree. i bet there were plenty of GMs that would have happily swapped them straight up as late as 2011, if not later due to both players' reputations, if he was the one losing surfer joe and getting iginla.

I can accept that, given Mike Milbury was still employed as an NHL GM during this time.

 

[Michael Farkas]

The more I read the discussion and think about Iginla, I realize how little he deserves to be here...

Howe and Gerard should probably already be up on the board though...

Pass on Ullman, Stastny and Vasilev, not difference makers...there's still difference makers on the board. Let's take those guys...

 

[Canadiens1958]

Toe Blake. One of the second half of the 1930s Rookies to enter the NHL and shine. Two way game, cornerstone of the Canadiens until 1948 injury forced his retirement.

Pre WWII Hart and league scoring leader, 1st and 2nd AST member. Best LW from the 1936-48 era, ahead of Schriner.

Toe Blake Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Averaged over a point a game in the playoffs, leading scorer once.

Team leader.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

PLAYOFF R-ON/R-OFF

I'm not re-posting the results from everyone I talked about before; see the previous thread.

Dave Keon

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1960-61	5	0.50	0.33	50%
1961-62	12	2.50	0.90	178%
1962-63	10	6.00	1.67	260%
1963-64	14	1.63	1.06	53%
1964-65	6	1.50	2.25	-33%
1965-66	4	0.50	0.50	0%
1966-67	12	1.25	0.89	40%
1968-69	4	0.60	0.09	560%
1970-71	6	1.50	0.63	140%
1971-72	5	0.60	0.36	65%
1973-74	4	0.60	0.50	20%
1974-75	7	1.00	0.36	175%
1979-80	3	0.40	0.55	-27%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Let's be honest - Keon's regular season resume is unimpressive for a potential top 100 player. But his two-way play in the postseason is nearly unparalleled. In thirteen postseasons, he outperformed his team's average ten times (with one more season being a tie) - all ten of those out-performances were by at least a 20% margin (with eight of those being by a 50% margin). Yes, a lot of the years have small samples sizes, but his consistency can't be overlooked. Among forwards with 80+ playoff games, Keon has a better out-performance ratio (R-On divided by R-Off) than any forward dating back to 1960, with the exception of Peter Forsberg.

Erik Karlsson

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
2009-10	6	0.33	0.91	-63%
2011-12	7	1.00	1.00	0%
2012-13	10	1.00	1.08	-7%
2014-15	6	0.50	0.71	-30%
2016-17	19	2.00	0.54	271%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Karlsson's playoff resume through his first four seasons was disappointing - two springs where he was weaker than his teammates, and two where he was roughly on par. But his 2017 playoff run was one for the ages - his numbers were similar to (but better than) Bourque in 1990. His career out-performance ratio is, believe it or not, virtually identical to Bobby Orr - though of course that's over a much smaller sample size, and his one big run covers up many weaker ones.

Jarome Iginla

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1995-96	2	2.00	0.30	567%
2003-04	26	2.44	1.00	144%
2005-06	7	2.50	0.56	350%
2006-07	6	0.50	0.22	125%
2007-08	7	0.83	0.86	-3%
2008-09	6	0.50	1.67	-70%
2012-13	15	0.73	1.19	-38%
2013-14	12	1.00	1.50	-33%

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Strong results overall. We all know that Iginla dragged a weak team to game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals (along with Kipprusoff), but he also performed extremely well in first-round losses in the two following seasons. After that, his numbers plummet (which I found somewhat surprising - I mean, we all know 2013 and 2014 didn't work out as planned for him, but those are some ugly numbers in 2009 - and even a relative disappointment in 2008 given he was a Hart finalist). Still, overall Iginla's career numbers are strong - his out-performance ratio puts him on par with Alfredsson, Fedorov and Jagr.

Joe Thornton

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1997-98	6	#DIV/0!	0.58	#DIV/0!
1998-99	11	1.17	1.08	8%
2001-02	6	1.00	0.90	11%
2002-03	5	0.29	1.00	-71%
2003-04	7	0.33	1.29	-74%
2005-06	11	0.50	1.56	-68%
2006-07	11	1.22	1.00	22%
2007-08	13	1.43	0.86	67%
2008-09	6	0.50	0.43	17%
2009-10	15	0.48	1.55	-69%
2010-11	18	0.69	1.08	-37%
2011-12	5	2.00	0.33	500%
2012-13	11	2.67	0.50	433%
2013-14	7	0.14	1.31	-89%
2015-16	24	1.13	1.44	-22%
2016-17	4	0.67	1.00	-33%

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As I alluded to earlier, Thornton has an excellent regular season resume - possibly the best out of any remaining player. But he's been branded a playoff choker ever since being held scoreless in seven games at age 24 (he was definitely injured that series - I think he had some broken ribs). Thornton has had a few solid playoff runs (2008 and especially 2013 stand out), but overall his results are poor. He was below his team's average in eight of his team's sixteen playoffs (including all three of the years they made it to, or past, the conference finals). Thornton's teams, on average, have been a bit better than even when he was off the ice, but his personal R-On ratio is a weak 0.79. He's scored 123 playoff points - a significant number - but I can't help but think he's just a playoff compiler. Of the 54 forwards (1960-present) who have played in 150+ games, he has the worst R-On ratio and the 3rd worst out-performance ratio. Instead of being a shoe-in for the top 100, I have to seriously think if his playoff resume is weak enough to keep him out.

Mark Howe

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1979-80	3	0.33	0.71	-53%
1982-83	3	0.25	0.50	-50%
1983-84	3	1.00	0.27	267%
1984-85	19	1.58	0.92	72%
1985-86	5	1.00	0.83	20%
1986-87	26	1.75	1.00	75%
1987-88	7	2.17	0.41	426%
1988-89	19	2.08	0.81	157%
1992-93	7	2.50	0.63	300%
1993-94	6	1.00	1.54	-35%
1994-95	3	#DIV/0!	1.23	#DIV/0!

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Howe put up superb individual numbers (his career R-On is slightly better than Larry Robinson's) on teams that were, on average, below even at ES. As a result, Howe has the highest out-performance ratio of any defenseman in playoff history (minimum 100 games). Even if we lower the threshold to 50 games, he's only passed by five blueliners, and only one of them (Carl Brewer) would be taking tough matchups the way Howe did (I don't think that's true of, say, Janne Laukkanen and Garth Butcher). What also stands out is how crucial he was during each of his team's three longest playoff runs - again he posted superb numbers on teams that were, at best, even at ES. I was a bit of a skeptic when it came to Howe (I think highly of him, but I wasn't convinced he should be a shoe-in for the top 100), but this certainly boosts his case.

Norm Ullman

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1959-60	6	0.43	0.90	-52%
1960-61	11	0.71	1.00	-29%
1962-63	11	0.93	1.09	-14%
1963-64	14	1.09	0.76	43%
1964-65	7	0.67	0.50	33%
1965-66	12	1.00	1.50	-33%
1968-69	4	0.33	0.23	44%
1970-71	6	0.80	1.00	-20%
1971-72	5	0.25	0.63	-60%
1973-74	4	0.50	0.55	-8%
1974-75	7	-	0.64	-100%

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Perhaps the biggest disappointment here. That's not to say that he's objectively worse than, say, Joe Thornton, but I always thought of Ullman as a good two-way player. His R-on is poor; a bit weaker than Thornton, Mahovlich, Selanne and H. Sedin. His teams, in general, were fairly weak too, so his relative performance isn't terrible (around the level of Robitaille, Federko and Mogilny) but it's still well below even.

Patrick Kane

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
2008-09	16	0.53	1.19	-56%
2009-10	22	0.91	1.60	-43%
2010-11	7	0.75	1.63	-54%
2011-12	6	1.33	0.70	90%
2012-13	23	1.47	1.31	12%
2013-14	19	1.38	0.88	58%
2014-15	23	1.54	1.09	41%
2015-16	7	0.83	1.13	-26%
2016-17	4	-	0.11	-100%

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Just as I was getting on board the Patrick Kane bandwagon, I see these results. They're not terrible (Kane still has a slightly positive ES ratio overall), but he's well behind the rest of his team. Of the Blackhawks' three main stairs, Keith has by far the best ES ratio and Kane has by far the worst. His out-performance ratio falls right in the range of Ullman, Robitaille, Federko, etc. One argument in his favour - his results are very strong during that dominant stretch from 2013 to 2015 (two Cups and a conference finals).

Peter Stastny

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1980-81	5	0.67	0.55	22%
1981-82	12	1.11	0.64	74%
1982-83	4	2.00	0.33	500%
1983-84	9	1.50	0.81	85%
1984-85	18	1.13	0.83	36%
1985-86	3	0.17	0.60	-72%
1986-87	13	1.23	0.81	52%
1989-90	6	0.83	0.73	15%
1990-91	7	0.60	1.11	-46%
1991-92	7	1.10	1.00	10%
1992-93	5	1.00	0.50	100%
1993-94	4	-	1.17	-100%

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Stastny falls under the "pleasant surprise" category. He generally played on weak teams (only made it out of the first round 4 times, and the second round twice). His R-On ratio is just below even but given the poor quality of his team, that represents a significant out-performance. Of the 356 forwards played in 80+ playoff games from 1960 onwards, Stastny had the 5th weakest team R-Off. His out-performance ratio, surprisingly, is on par with Beliveau, Lafleur, Kurri and Datsyuk.

Serge Savard

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1967-68	6	#DIV/0!	1.84	#DIV/0!
1968-69	14	1.17	1.67	-30%
1971-72	6	1.00	0.70	43%
1972-73	17	1.16	1.93	-40%
1973-74	6	0.55	1.29	-58%
1974-75	11	1.15	1.75	-34%
1975-76	13	2.88	1.11	159%
1976-77	14	1.92	3.50	-45%
1977-78	15	3.63	1.00	263%
1978-79	16	1.44	1.38	5%
1979-80	2	-	1.60	-100%
1980-81	3	-	0.57	-100%
1981-82	4	0.63	0.30	108%
1982-83	3	0.25	0.25	0%

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Savard's career ratio is almost exactly even. His personal results are very strong (almost identical to Lidstrom, Pronger and Chara), but his teams were consistently excellent (the only defensemen with 100+ playoff games with a better R-Off environment were, basically, all of the Edmonton Oilers, players who were on the 1970s Habs, and Brian Rafalski). Savard's results are basically indistinguishable from longtime teammate Guy Lapointe (keeping in mind Savard had tougher match-ups and contributed more on the PK, while Lapointe contributed more with the man advantage). Another person who put up basically identical R-On and R-Off numbers - Kevin Lowe. I don't think Savard's numbers tell us much that we don't already know - Savard played at a very high level, but it's tricky to disentangle that from the strength of his team.

TABLE WITH CAREER NUMBERS

PLAYER	GAMES	R-ON	R-OFF	RATIO
Mark Howe	101	1.54	0.87	0.76
Dave Keon	92	1.24	0.74	0.67
Erik Karlsson	48	1.19	0.77	0.54
Bill Gadsby	44	1.12	0.79	0.42
Duncan Keith	126	1.30	0.96	0.35
Peter Stastny	93	0.97	0.75	0.29
Jarome Iginla	81	1.13	0.94	0.21
Brian Leetch	95	1.02	0.88	0.15
Eric Lindros	53	1.18	1.12	0.05
Martin St. Louis	107	1.01	1.02	(0.00)
Serge Savard	130	1.35	1.38	(0.02)
Patrick Kane	127	1.04	1.12	(0.07)
Norm Ullman	87	0.73	0.79	(0.08)
Joe Thornton	160	0.79	1.05	(0.25)

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2 somewhat mitigating factors for Ullman:

1) He often was used to check the top opposing center, especially Stan Mikita.

2) His linemates usually stunk,which affects these ratios quite a bit. With the exception of the two years he centered Delvecchio and Howe, he generally centered the leftovers on a very thin Detroit team. Here's an profile of Ullman from 1965-66, shortly after he broke out: A nice guy who learned to be troublesome. It notes that he was being put back with his old linemates, Floyd Smith and Paul Henderson.

More SI profiles of Ullman.
From his breakout season (1964-65): Detroit flies high on beat-up old Red Wings. Notes that Ullman was becoming one of the big stars in the league, and that even before he broke out he was known as a guy who hustled all over the ice and a top notch fore-checker (this is where I previously got the Henri Richard comparison, as forechecking was also one of his fortes).

Here's an article from 1966 describing Ullman's forechecking in the playoffs:

Even more discouraging—from a Chicago point of view—was the forechecking of the Red Wings. Time after time Norm Ullman, the high-scoring Detroit center, pestered the Hawks deep behind their own blue line to disrupt their offense, as Montreal's Jean Beliveau did against Toronto. He would station himself near Chicago Goalie Glenn Hall and go after the puck carrier. With two other wingmen stationed at the blue line, the carrier had absolutely no avenue out of his zone.
Forechecking works best when your team is ahead, and that is when Detroit used it most effectively. In that 7-0 game Detroit scored three goals in the first period, and thereafter Chicago could do nothing.

Detroit would go on to upset Chicago 4-2, before falling to Montreal in the finals.

Here is article from November, 1967 authored by Toe Blake, where he gives his general thoughts about hockey, and the duties of each position. KEEP YOUR EYE ON AN EXCITING GAME

This is what he says about centers:

Basically, the center's job is to maneuver the puck so as to set up scoring chances either by feeding passes to his wings or making his own scoring opportunities. If he also is a 30-goal scorer and plays a sound checking game then you have a superplayer. Jean Beliveau of the Canadiens does all these things exceptionally well, and that is why he has been an All-Star so many times. So do Norm Ullman of Detroit, Dave Keon of Toronto and Henri Richard of the Canadiens. Ullman also has a great fighting heart. I don't mean he is especially rough, just that he is always battling you for the puck.