Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 19

bobholly39

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Mar 10, 2013
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Of the newcomers i really like Kane, Karlsson and Thornton

Karlsson - the one i'm most unsure about. Need to take a closer look at his longevity vs others and if it's good enough, but the other 2 should do quite well.
 

Canadiens1958

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One week (really 3-4 days) "plenty" for discussing 15 new players? If for no other reason, I think that future readers would want to read at least a little about everyone listed here.

PS. I was "lobbying" for a pool of 15 or so, and that was weeks ago. Don't mind an even larger pool, but I think it would be best to be able to discuss them all!

And you got "..or so". Yet you complain.

This project features a number of first time participants, kibbitzers who rather obviously from their posts, did no significant reading of previous projects.
 

Batis

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Sep 17, 2014
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Vasiliev is going to be hard-pressed to get voted into my top 100. He correctly gets lots of mileage out of being the only defenseman who could regularly get the puck out of his own zone against Canada in the 1970s, but being the best of a relatively mediocre Soviet defense = meh (at this point!)

Don't get me wrong, he'd almost certainly be in my top 150. (I forget if he was on my top 120 Round 1 list; I'm intentionally not looking at it much during Round 2). But he shouldn't be over countryman Alexander Maltsev. Not over fellow non-NHL Euro Vladimir Martinec.

I'm not sold on him over fellow defensmen Keith, Gadsby, Leetch, or Karlsson, either

I am definitely onboard about that both Maltsev and Martinec should rank ahead of Vasiliev and I think that I will have Keith, Gadsby and Leetch ranked ahead of Vasiliev this round. But regarding the bolded it may be worth pointing out that Vasiliev managed to keep his dominance of the Soviet defencemen going into the early 80's as well and during the 78/79-81/82 stretch he finished ahead of both Fetisov and Kasatonov in the Izvestia golden stick voting during 4 straight seasons. And in the SPOTY voting Vasiliev finished ahead of Kasatonov all of those seasons as well and was only beaten by Fetisov in 81/82. Sure neither Fetisov nor Kasatonov had fully reached their primes yet at that point (with the exception of Fetisov in 81/82) but I still think that it is a point in Vasilievs favour that he kept his positional dominance going for so long.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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And you got "..or so". Yet you complain.

This project features a number of first time participants, kibbitzers who rather obviously from their posts, did no significant reading of previous projects.

I agree with everything in your second paragraph; I really wish everyone who participated here had at least skimmed the positional projects; but on the other hand, that's also a lot to ask.

But I don't think "just get it over with" is the right solution. First time participants in particular could be prone to persuasion.
 

Canadiens1958

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Nov 30, 2007
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I agree with everything in your second paragraph; I really wish everyone who participated here had at least skimmed the positional projects; but on the other hand, that's also a lot to ask.

But I don't think "just get it over with" is the right solution. First time participants in particular could be prone to persuasion.

No such phenomena. If a participant presented a round 1 list of 120, discussing 20 given five or more are carryovers is trivial.

Cynicism about first time participants is misplaced.
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
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Who is this "we" that you pretend to represent?

Suggesting that things are incorrect because of the one week voting schedule?

What in the hell are you talking about? I'm suggesting a 2 week period due to the fact that we have so many candidates the next 3 rounds. Please read before you post or simply don't post in my threads.
 
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Canadiens1958

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What in the hell are you talking about? I'm suggesting a 2 week period due to the fact that we have so many candidates the next 3 rounds. Please read before you post or simply don't post in my threads.

Not your thread. Common project thread.

If you as opposed to "we" cannot process the information that surfaced previously or did not do the requisite reading as TDMM idealistically suggested, the group should not be impacted.
 

DN28

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Jan 2, 2014
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Wow, lots of new candidates this time around. My initial thoughts on them...

(...)

Peter Stastny: He has a case here. Remember, he was an elite player in Europe for several years behind the Iron Curtain. As good an offensive player as anyone not named Gretzky during the first half of the 1980s. Probably could have been a 100-point player in the NHL for years before he actually arrived. Another center in the Thornton/Dionne mold, though his playoff results are generally better than theirs are.

(...)

Disagree but it´s good that you´ve brought that up so we can quickly re-visit Stastny´s pre-NHL career.

First and main point: Stastny had only one big season before NHL and that was his last one before he emigrated to Quebec.

Peter Stastny´s Golden Stick voting record: 15th (1976), 12th (1977), 12th (1978), 6th (1979), 1st (1980).

I think we can safely put off his first three international seasons since he was not even considered a top 10 player within his own country. 1979 - the season where Stastny won the League title, Slovan Bratislava upset the SONP Kladno and became the first Slovak team to win the 1st Czechoslovak League.. pretty good, but...

There were two forwards who dominated the whole Golden stick voting + the League´s All-Star team voting + the League´s scoring --> Vladimir Martinec and Peter´s linemate Marian Stastny (older brother). Furthermore, despite finishing decent 6th place, a Slovan´s goalie (Marcel Sakac) also finished ahead of Peter at 5th place, so Peter Stastny was considered still just a 3rd best player on his own team. I don´t think it was a particularly noteworthy season in an all-time sense, Stastny as 3rd-5th best CSSR forward in the season when Soviet hockey was arguably peaking.. USSR absolutely dominated the Czechoslovaks at the 1979 World Championship (11:1 and then 6:1 wins!), and at this championship, P. Stastny scored 5 points in 8 games, 6th in his own team. In sum, I think Stastny was not a top 20 player in 1979 Europe yet.

On the brighter side, 1980 should definitely be considered as the one season in Peter Stastny´s resume that adds some decent value. First, he won the Golden Stick award for the best CSSR player of the season. That has to count for something even though it was a weaker season for the Czechoslovak hockey overall (disappointing 5th place finish at OG 1980, and also League´s quality of play generally declining).

The top 10 of 1980 GS voting:
1. Peter Šťastný 687 TJ Slovan CHZJD Bratislava
2. Milan Nový 681 TJ Poldi SONP Kladno
3. Jaroslav Pouzar 477 TJ Motor České Budějovice
4. Jiří Králík 471 ASD Dukla Jihlava
5. Vladimír Martinec 442 TJ Tesla Pardubice
6. Miroslav Fryčer 329 TJ Vítkovice
7. Vincent Lukáč 308 TJ VSŽ Košice
8. Karel Lang 245 ASVŠ Dukla Trenčín
9. Jiří Novák 198 TJ Tesla Pardubice
10. Jindřich Kokrment 174 ASD Dukla Jihlava


Stastny also featured in 1980 Izvestia trophy voting for the best player in Europe with decent 8th place finish (the highest place among CSSR players as it would be expected):

1979/80:

1) Sergey Makarov 550 (137-62-27)
2) Boris Mikhaylov 384
3) Valery Vasilyev 175
4) Mats Näslund 166
5) Jukka Porvari 163
6) Vladislav Tretyak 143
7) Vladimir Krutov 114
8) Peter Šťastný 102
9) Pelle Lindbergh 81
10) Aleksandr Maltsev 77

This is also supported by the actual scoring numbers. The only time, pre-NHL P. Stastny ended up in top 10 tournament scoring, happened precisely at Lake Placid 1980, where he registered fairly impressive 14 points (7+7) in just 6 games, which was good enough for 2nd overall scoring finish (1 point behind his fellow teammate Milan Novy). EDIT: Stastny actually finished top 10 also at 1976 WHC.

On a more positive side and not to sell Stastny short here, it´s true that Peter did have a couple of pretty good WHC showings given his age (WHC 76 - 5th in CSSR team with 12 points in 9 games, WHC 78 - 3rd in CSSR team with 11 points in 10 games). It´s also true that Stastny did impress Czech and Slovak observers with his skills very early on, as he entered the international competition when he was 19 y/o - little bit younger than most of other CSSR hockey stars from the 1960s up to 1980s. Finally, right before Stastny´s breakout season, Jan Starsi (CSSR assistant coach between 1974-1979) in 1979 had already proclaimed Peter as one of the most talented Czechoslovak players ever:

(...)

After WHC ´79, there was an interesting interview with Jan Starsi, assistant coach to Karel Gut at the National Team between 1974-1979 (Gut left a year later). Given that Starsi officially finished this tenure, interview was conducted in a balanced appraising mode. I picked just a three questions and answers that caught my attention the most:

Journalist: Which rookie during your tenure fit into the team the most quickly?
Starší: “Definitely Peter Šťastný in a year 1976, one of the most striking talents of our hockey. Already then, three years ago, he managed to increase the level of Nový´s line and to score goals.”

Journalist: 43 players have played during your tenure. Which of them have you perceived as a world class players?
Starší: “Goaltenders Holeček and Dzurilla, defensemen Pospíšil, Bubla and forwards Jiří Holík, Martinec, Hlinka, Ebermann, from younger generation Marián and Peter Šťastný.”

Journalist: Any player whom you gave a chance and left you disappointed?
Starší: “It was an honor for everyone whom we gave an opportunity to fight for a national jersey and their biggest goal was to play for Team Czechoslovakia. Of course not everybody has fully succeeded. For example I expected more from very talented Vincent Lukáč.”

The last sentence was a bit revealing to me. Anybody who closely followed the scoring of CSSR league of 70s and 80s had to notice excellent numbers that Lukac was producing. His domestic scoring finishes are no worse than Martinec´s for example.. Yet, Lukac´s international record looks nothing like a Czechoslovak hockey star of late 70s/early 80s. To add to information that at late 70s he was somewhat of an underachiever internationally, Lukac tended not to provide anything more than scoring and was reputed as quite one-dimensional winger, as his this season´s +/- indicates: of all ‘top 30’ forwards and ‘top 15’ defensemen, Lukac´s -119 was by far the worst record.

Still, after all of this, I stand at my position, saying that Stastny had only one meaningful season before 1981, and that was the forementioned 1980. How many points could have Stastny scored in 1980?

In 1981, Stastny scored 109 points in 77 games, 6th overall scoring. In 1982, Stastny scored 139 points in 80 games, 3rd overall scoring. In 1983, Stastny scored 124 points in 75 games, 2nd overall scoring.... I think something between 90-99 points for Stastny, 1980´ edition, is a reasonable hypothesis. This would be 9th to 17th scoring range in NHL for that season.

I don´t think we can assume Stastny would have hit a 100 point mark in any season of his European pre-NHL career. Remember, there were still a bunch of Soviet forwards who were considered better even in 1980.
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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Dec 29, 2007
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If Serge Savard is a top 100 player all-time, so is Brad McCrimmon

Speaking of McCrimmon, Mark Howe will be in my Top 5

Now that Bill "can't be bothered with defense" Cowley is in, shouldn't Nels Stewart be up? Only 2 time Hart winner left

Tony O probably stole more games for his team than any goalie in history

Lindros & Keon really need to make the list

Thornton was suppose to be Lindros-lite, instead he chose to be Surfer Joe. Not that there's anything wrong with that.....

Brian Leetch wants the voters who love offense to vote him in. Top 5 offensive defensemen all-time
 
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Kyle McMahon

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I'm also not super sold on Iginla and views him like a slightly better glorified but perhaps less versatile Markus Näslund who could fight and thus looked more consistently engaged. Iginla's valleys = Shanahan, is perhaps even giving him too much. He had that one run in 04 though, on the plus side, but that Flames team carried a lot of weight on goalie/defense.

This is one of my concerns with Iginla, as somebody who probably watched him play more often than most participants here. For a guy who could contribute by going out and banging bodies and imposing his will on meeker players even if he wasn't scoring, Iginla had a lot of quiet nights, at least in the latter stages of his Flames career. And while it wasn't typically spoken of out in the open, I think a quiet frustration with his inability to get the Flames over the hump started to exist by 2010 or so.

Calgary looked poised to finally make some serious noise in 2008-09 after three years of first round knockouts. They looked pretty comfortably locked into the 3rd playoff seed in March of that season, but a late season slump by both Iginla and the team ended up costing them the division after the Canucks went on a solid run down the stretch. Instead of having home ice advantage against either St. Louis or Columbus (both teams got swept in the first round), the Flames ended up in 5th place and had to play Chicago in the opening round. Iginla had a pretty poor series and a very promising season ended in another first round ouster.

Summer rolls around, Calgary makes a big splash landing Jay Bouwmeester. Expectations were high, and the Flames flew out of the gate. Halfway through the season the Flames were on pace for 106 points, right up there with San Jose and Chicago in the West. Iginla was his usual self, cruising along at 40 goal/80 point pace. Then the wheels just completely fell off. The Flames lost nine in a row in January to suddenly find themselves on thin ice heading down the stretch. In the end, a late-season slump led to them missing the playoffs entirely. Iginla had one point in their final nine games.

Expectations weren't quite so high in subsequent years, but a fairly similar pattern followed, which was Calgary coming up a day late and a dollar short in their playoff push. They narrowly missed in 2011 and 2012, and both instances it was again a big losing streak in March that sealed their fate.

I think the characterization of Iginla as that skilled but gritty, win-at-all-costs warrior that started way back in 2004 may have still persisted from afar, but the myth seemed to outgrow the man as time wore on.
 

Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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Disagree but it´s good that you´ve brought that up so we can quickly re-visit Stastny´s pre-NHL career.

First and main point: Stastny had only one big season before NHL and that was his last one before he emigrated to Quebec.

Peter Stastny´s Golden Stick voting record: 15th (1976), 12th (1977), 12th (1978), 6th (1979), 1st (1980).

I think we can safely put off his first three international seasons since he was not even considered a top 10 player within his own country. 1979 - the season where Stastny won the League title, Slovan Bratislava upset the SONP Kladno and became the first Slovak team to win the 1st Czechoslovak League.. pretty good, but...

There were two forwards who dominated the whole Golden stick voting + the League´s All-Star team voting + the League´s scoring --> Vladimir Martinec and Peter´s linemate Marian Stastny (older brother). Furthermore, despite finishing decent 6th place, a Slovan´s goalie (Marcel Sakac) also finished ahead of Peter at 5th place, so Peter Stastny was considered still just a 3rd best player on his own team. I don´t think it was a particularly noteworthy season in an all-time sense, Stastny as 3rd-5th best CSSR forward in the season when Soviet hockey was arguably peaking.. USSR absolutely dominated the Czechoslovaks at the 1979 World Championship (11:1 and then 6:1 wins!), and at this championship, P. Stastny scored 5 points in 8 games, 6th in his own team. In sum, I think Stastny was not a top 20 player in 1979 Europe yet.

On the brighter side, 1980 should definitely be considered as the one season in Peter Stastny´s resume that adds some decent value. First, he won the Golden Stick award for the best CSSR player of the season. That has to count for something even though it was a weaker season for the Czechoslovak hockey overall (disappointing 5th place finish at OG 1980, and also League´s quality of play generally declining).

The top 10 of 1980 GS voting:
1. Peter Šťastný 687 TJ Slovan CHZJD Bratislava
2. Milan Nový 681 TJ Poldi SONP Kladno
3. Jaroslav Pouzar 477 TJ Motor České Budějovice
4. Jiří Králík 471 ASD Dukla Jihlava
5. Vladimír Martinec 442 TJ Tesla Pardubice
6. Miroslav Fryčer 329 TJ Vítkovice
7. Vincent Lukáč 308 TJ VSŽ Košice
8. Karel Lang 245 ASVŠ Dukla Trenčín
9. Jiří Novák 198 TJ Tesla Pardubice
10. Jindřich Kokrment 174 ASD Dukla Jihlava


Stastny also featured in 1980 Izvestia trophy voting for the best player in Europe with decent 8th place finish (the highest place among CSSR players as it would be expected):



This is also supported by the actual scoring numbers. The only time, pre-NHL P. Stastny ended up in top 10 tournament scoring, happened precisely at Lake Placid 1980, where he registered fairly impressive 14 points (7+7) in just 6 games, which was good enough for 2nd overall scoring finish (1 point behind his fellow teammate Milan Novy).

On a more positive side and not to sell Stastny short here, it´s true that Peter did have a couple of pretty good WHC showings given his age (WHC 76 - 5th in CSSR team with 12 points in 9 games, WHC 78 - 3rd in CSSR team with 11 points in 10 games). It´s also true that Stastny did impress Czech and Slovak observers with his skills very early on, as he entered the international competition when he was 19 y/o - little bit younger than most of other CSSR hockey stars from the 1960s up to 1980s. Finally, right before Stastny´s breakout season, Jan Starsi (CSSR assistant coach between 1974-1979) in 1979 had already proclaimed Peter as one of the most talented Czechoslovak players ever:



Still, after all of this, I stand at my position, saying that Stastny had only one meaningful season before 1981, and that was the forementioned 1980. How many points could have Stastny scored in 1980?

In 1981, Stastny scored 109 points in 77 games, 6th overall scoring. In 1982, Stastny scored 139 points in 80 games, 3rd overall scoring. In 1983, Stastny scored 124 points in 75 games, 2nd overall scoring.... I think something between 90-99 points for Stastny, 1980´ edition, is a reasonable hypothesis. This would be 9th to 17th scoring range in NHL for that season.

I don´t think we can assume Stastny would have hit a 100 point mark in any season of his European pre-NHL career. Remember, there were still a bunch of Soviet forwards who were considered better even in 1980.

Excellent contribution.

What do you make of the fact that Stastny's scoring totals in the Czech league were very consistent from 1976-77 onwards? This was more or less the basis for my assertion that he may have had 100-point potential in the NHL for a few years before actually defecting. Is it possible he was an underrated commodity in the Czech/European awards voting?
 
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kruezer

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This is one of my concerns with Iginla, as somebody who probably watched him play more often than most participants here. For a guy who could contribute by going out and banging bodies and imposing his will on meeker players even if he wasn't scoring, Iginla had a lot of quiet nights, at least in the latter stages of his Flames career. And while it wasn't typically spoken of out in the open, I think a quiet frustration with his inability to get the Flames over the hump started to exist by 2010 or so.

Calgary looked poised to finally make some serious noise in 2008-09 after three years of first round knockouts. They looked pretty comfortably locked into the 3rd playoff seed in March of that season, but a late season slump by both Iginla and the team ended up costing them the division after the Canucks went on a solid run down the stretch. Instead of having home ice advantage against either St. Louis or Columbus (both teams got swept in the first round), the Flames ended up in 5th place and had to play Chicago in the opening round. Iginla had a pretty poor series and a very promising season ended in another first round ouster.

Summer rolls around, Calgary makes a big splash landing Jay Bouwmeester. Expectations were high, and the Flames flew out of the gate. Halfway through the season the Flames were on pace for 106 points, right up there with San Jose and Chicago in the West. Iginla was his usual self, cruising along at 40 goal/80 point pace. Then the wheels just completely fell off. The Flames lost nine in a row in January to suddenly find themselves on thin ice heading down the stretch. In the end, a late-season slump led to them missing the playoffs entirely. Iginla had one point in their final nine games.

Expectations weren't quite so high in subsequent years, but a fairly similar pattern followed, which was Calgary coming up a day late and a dollar short in their playoff push. They narrowly missed in 2011 and 2012, and both instances it was again a big losing streak in March that sealed their fate.

I think the characterization of Iginla as that skilled but gritty, win-at-all-costs warrior that started way back in 2004 may have still persisted from afar, but the myth seemed to outgrow the man as time wore on.

I can get behind a lot of this despite my love for Iginla. He has to own a lot of the guilt for the failures of the flames in the late 2000s.

For the record (from earlier posts, not yours Kyle) Iginla had a very divided season in 01-02 he had 37 points in 25 games in October and November and then finished hot with 30 in 22 in March and April, he was cold in between, I think the characterization of that season as getting a bunch on points once Calgary was out of the playoff picture only represents half the picture.
 

Captain Bowie

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Jan 18, 2012
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Some quick scoring tables on the modern forwards:

GPPPPG
Martin St. Louis04-136977471.07
Joe Thornton04-136937701.11
Alex Ovechkin06-136017351.22
Ilya Kovalchuk04-136706981.04
Henrik Sedin04-136986880.99
GPPPPG
Joe Thornton03-16101210941.08
Alex Ovechkin06-168399661.15
Sidney Crosby06-167079381.33
Martin St. Louis03-169349381.00
Jarome Iginla03-1610049100.91
GPPPPG
Jarome Iginla02-117187391.03
Joe Thornton02-117058221.17
Mart St. Louis02-117077181.02
Ilya Kovalchuk02-117027021.00
Dany Heatley02-116696891.03
GPPPPG
Patrick Kane10-197307851.08
Sidney Crosby10-196448111.26
Alex Ovechkin10-197507831.04
Claude Giroux10-197667260.95
Nick Backstrom10-197227090.98
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

To me very telling that Joe Thornton is the top scoring of 3 of these players scoring primes, including his own. I see a bit of a gap between the top two and the bottom two.
 
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ted2019

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I'm pretty high on Iginla. He put up those numbers playing in the more defensive conference on a team with a good goalie and not much else.

Of course the tables from the wingers project got destroyed in the migration, but his R-on / R-off ratios were insane; as in historically strong. Much better than Martin St Louis's ratios. Evidence that Iginla's grinding game really helped his team control the puck.

He was also voted best leader in the NHL by fellow players at one point.

Imagine if Iginla actually played with a #1 center his entire career in Calgary? Conroy, Savard, Langkow isn't exactly a murders row for centers.
 
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vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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a case for mark howe--

he was runner for the norris three times. kind of park-esque in that way where he had the bad luck to have his peak coincide with multiple exceptional other players' peaks.

first you have the bizarre langway overcorrect in '83, then you have coffey having the greatest non-orr offensive dman season ever, then you have bourque's first MVP year and long overdue first norris. it's not quite orr and potvin but it was a gauntlet where if he had peaked in the late '90s or, say, anytime between the late 2000s to now, he might have three norrises.

also important to note he has two top 5 hart finishes. brian leetch and erik karlsson can't say that. afaict, the only defensemen who can make the same claim post-orr are potvin, bourque, and coffey.

howe also has basically duncan keith's playoff resume, with a stronger regular season resume and higher end offense.

for longevity, he has almost a 1,000 game NHL career, which seems low compared to the next generation (coffey, murphy, macinnis, stevens, housley, etc.) but for players whose careers began when his did is about right: for other young defensemen whose careers began in 1980 and the years immediately before, howe is within range of mike ramsey, keith brown, jay wells, mark hardy, rob ramage, brad marsh, curt giles, doug wilson, gordie roberts, mario marois, reed larson, rick green, randy carlyle, and mike o'connell. that long list came from me running a h-r search of players who had their 1st-to-5th seasons in 1980 and eyeballing the longest careers. the only players from that timespan to play significantly longer than howe did are bourque, kevin lowe, and mccrimmon.

and on top of all that, he has this whole other career six year career in the WHA where is the all-time leader in playoff points and second in playoff goals, two measly goals behind bobby hull.
 

VanIslander

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Dave Keon: One of my highest ranking unavailable players up until now. Revered for his leadership and all-around game. Key cog on 1960s Toronto dynasty, arguably their most important player. More than worthy of induction to the list at this stage.

Eddie Gerard: Considered one of the all-time greats at the time of his retirement. Versatile, well-respected leader of the Ottawa dynasty. I would have no problem calling him the second most important player on those teams after Nighbor. Mainly a defenseman, but could shift to forward as needed. I'm not sure Gerard's career is significantly different from Red Kelly's Red Wings career. An easy choice for induction at this point.
Two MUST-INDUCT candidates. Whether 91st or 99th... how could the greatest of their eras be represented and not include them?

Unfathomable.

The two dynasties may not be the Habs, but they are equally important.

Keon was chosen by a large knowledgeable committee in 2016 to be the greatest Leaf ever. But he doesn't make our top-100 greats of hockey history?

Gerard had a 10-year hockey career including Stanley Cup winning heroics BEFORE he began his NHL career that saw him win 4 consecutive cups. Captain oh my captain! How he was so often mentioned as an early hockey era great.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Two MUST-INDUCT candidates. Whether 91st or 99th... how could the greatest of their eras be represented and not include them?

Unfathomable.

The two dynasties may not be the Habs, but they are equally important.

Keon was chosen by a large knowledgeable committee in 2016 to be the greatest Leaf ever. But he doesn't make our top-100 greats of hockey history?

Gerard had a 10-year hockey career including Stanley Cup winning heroics BEFORE he began his NHL career that saw him win 4 consecutive cups. Captain oh my captain! How he was so often mentioned as an early hockey era great.

I get what you're saying but...

We already have Nighbor, Benedict, Denneny from Ottawa. Clancy and Cleghorn for some of the years.

Kelly (more for Detroit), Horton, and Mahovlich for 60s Toronto.

And nobody from recent Chicago.

That said, I am pleasantly surprised to see Gerard available. I think he was #2 behind Nighbor on the Ottawa dynasty, but did less outside the dynasty than guys who have been ranked over him. Definitely a player worth talking about at least.

And do we have a link to just who was on that panel that voted for Keon?
 

Captain Bowie

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Jan 18, 2012
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I get what you're saying but...

We already have Nighbor, Benedict, Denneny from Ottawa. Clancy and Cleghorn for some of the years.

Kelly (more for Detroit), Horton, and Mahovlich for 60s Toronto.

And nobody from recent Chicago.

That said, I am pleasantly surprised to see Gerard available. I think he was #2 behind Nighbor on the Ottawa dynasty, but did less outside the dynasty than guys who have been ranked over him. Definitely a player worth talking about at least.

And do we have a link to just who was on that panel that voted for Keon?
To be fair, none of those guys have played a full career. And as mentioned by others and myself, I'd much rather under-rate a current player now and have a chance to correct it next time around, than overrate them now, only to have their careers viewed in not as good a light upon a few years of reflection.
 

Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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IIMO, Thornton, Ullman, and Kane are the only forwards left without whom our final list would be defective.

What would Kane's scores be if the current season ended today?

Keep in mind that Ullman was in something of a Henri Richard situation, where he was a great two-way player who scored most of his points at even stength. Unlike Richard, Ullman never won the Cup, but he had some great personal performances. He also usually played on a different line from Gordie Howe.

I think Stastny is the first guy to appear who wasn't in my top 120 at all.

----

Re defensemen: I was pretty high on Karlsson in round 1, but I'm actually surprised his 7 year prime already looks similar to Leetch's from an offensive perspective.

It seems the numbers only half-agree with the bolded, at least for the Detroit portion of his career. Ullman indeed got most of his production at even strength. But evidently the Red Wings bled goals against at a high rate while he was on the ice to create the really poor plus/minus ratings. It's hard to explain how Ullman could have been even an average defensive player in a season like 1961-62 where he was minus-20, despite scoring 64 points (most of them at ES) in 70 games.

The trend seems to be present in the playoffs as well. Ullman produced fantastically from 1963 to 1966, leading the playoffs in scoring twice in losing efforts. 58 points in 44 games in total. Yet a minus-3 rating in spite of it all.

This might all be explainable if Ullman was drawing the tough matchups, but nothing so far suggests that this was the case. @Canadiens1958 has stated that Montreal could get away with playing Ralph Backstrom against him. You mentioned above that he usually played on a different line than Howe, and I have to assume (though would like to confirm, of course) that other teams were generally playing their strongest personnel against Gordie's line, rather than Ullman's.
 
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VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
Sep 24, 2008
3,797
754
Helsinki, Finland
Vasiliev is going to be hard-pressed to get voted into my top 100. He correctly gets lots of mileage out of being the only defenseman who could regularly get the puck out of his own zone against Canada in the 1970s, but being the best of a relatively mediocre Soviet defense = meh (at this point!)

No doubt he was the best Soviet defenceman just prior to Fetisov's arrival, but I don't necessarily agree on the bolded there; defencemen like Gusev and Lyapkin were better puck-carriers and playmakers than him, not to mention there were better shooters; I think that what Vasiliev did without the puck was more impressive than what he did with it. Namely, he was arguably one of the best and most hurtful hitters/hip-checkers ever, not just at European level, known also as 'guillotine', a terrific defensive defenceman.
To be fair, he was a strong & fast skater too, and a pretty good passer (though not quite as well known for long breakout passes as his fellow dmen Fetisov and Ragulin). It's just that (based on eye test) I've occasionally been a little unimpressed by him with the puck, like on power plays (really erratic/poorly-timed shooting and decision-making sometimes). I might have a slightly limited view, though.

Don't get me wrong, he'd almost certainly be in my top 150. (I forget if he was on my top 120 Round 1 list; I'm intentionally not looking at it much during Round 2). But he shouldn't be over countryman Alexander Maltsev. Not over fellow non-NHL Euro Vladimir Martinec.

I agree whole-heartedly.
 
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bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
22,078
14,589
The lists were submitted before the season started and if I had a vote all players would be frozen after the 17-18 season.

At least that's the way I would look at it.

I don't see why it makes a difference. Just evaluate on what the player has done to date, period.

It's not like Kane's position is going to be final and some exact specific and accurate representation of where he ranks all-time forever - he's still active and has more to add. So regardless of whether he slots 94th or 97th because you look at current year or not - we all know when his career is done his final placement will probably be quite a bit higher, so it matters less in my opinion.

Personally i judge up to today. And if Kane has 2 8 point games this week - i'll count those heavily too and likely move him up a rank or two than previously based on just those 2 games.
 

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