Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 19

[quoipourquoi]

Procedure

• You will be presented with 10+ players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list (10 players plus anyone with 99% of the voting points of the 10th ranked player)
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
• Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
• The top-4 players will be added to The List in Vote 1, while the top-5 players will be added to The List in subsequent voting cycles (#1-4 in Vote 1, #5-9 in Vote 2, #10-14 in Vote 3, #15-19 in Vote 4, #20-24 in Vote 5, #25-29 in Vote 6, #30-34 in Vote 7, #35-39 in Vote 8, #40-44 in Vote 9, #45-49 in Vote 10, #50-54 in Vote 11, #55-59 in Vote 12, #60-64 in Vote 13, #65-69 in Vote 14, #70-74 in Vote 15, #75-79 in Vote 16, #80-84 in Vote 17, #85-89 in Vote 18, #90-94 in Vote 19, #95-99 in Vote 20)
• A 100th player will be added to The List in Vote 21 from an expanded group of 15 candidates

Eligible Voters

• Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 120 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
• Art of Sedinery, Batis, BenchBrawl, blogofmike, bobholly39, Canadiens1958, ChiTownPhilly, DannyGallivan, Dennis Bonvie, Dr John Carlson, ehhedler, Hockey Outsider, Iceman, ImporterExporter, Johnny Engine, JoseTheodore2002, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, Mike Farkas, MXD, pappyline, quoipourquoi, ResilientBeast, Sentinel, seventieslord, steve141, ted1971, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGeneral, The Macho Man, tony d, VanIslander

Guidelines

• Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
• Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
• Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
• Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

House Rules

• Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
• We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
  
• Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
• Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, March 22nd at midnight and continue through Sunday, March 24th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, March 25th.


Vote 19 Candidates

• Bill Gadsby
• Brian Leetch
• Dave Keon
• Duncan Keith
• Eddie Gerard
• Eric Lindros
• Erik Karlsson
• Jarome Iginla
• Joe Thornton
• Mark Howe
• Martin St. Louis
• Nels Stewart
• Norm Ullman
• Patrick Kane
• Peter Stastny
• Serge Savard
• Sid Abel
• Toe Blake
• Tony Esposito
• Valeri Vasiliev

Click to read more...

 

[quoipourquoi]

Still just ranking 10, so you’ll have 10 NRs. Have fun, you crazy kids.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Now we're talking.

Happy to see Dave Keon, Serge Savard, Patrick Kane and Eddie Gerard in particular among the new candidates.

Tony Esposito?! Peter Stastny!?!?!?

Karlsson there but no Doughty = Meh.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Hart trophy shares (5% voting share minimum)

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th+	Total
Joe Thornton	1			1	2	1		5
Eric Lindros	1		1			1	1	4
Tony Esposito		1	1		1	1		4
Nels Stewart	2				1			3
Patrick Kane	1					2		3
Jarome Iginla		2	1					3
Martin St. Louis	1		1					2
Sid Abel	1			1				2
Norm Ullman		1			1			2
Mark Howe			1		1			2
Dave Keon				1		1		2
Toe Blake	1							1
Erik Karlsson					1			1
Bill Gadsby								0
Brian Leetch								0
Duncan Keith								0
Peter Stastny								0
Serge Savard								0

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I've listed the 18 players who spent all (or substantially all) of their careers in NHL - Eddie Gerard and Valeri Vasiliev are excluded.

Note that in 2002, Jarome Iginla tied for the Hart trophy, but he lost it to Jose Theodore, who had more first-place votes. This is the only time where I'm breaking a tie in the Hart trophy data that I've been presenting.

As I mentioned last time, Nels Stewart's first Hart trophy was earned during the 1925-26 season, which was right before the NHL consolidated North American talent. Therefore that award should be discounted somewhat (but it was still a dominant season).

How are people going to treat Patrick Kane's current season? Seventy games in, you'd have to think he has a good chance of placing in the top five in Hart voting this year (but, of course, it's not over until it's over).

Peter Stastny being the only forward here without any "significant" Hart seasons doesn't look great. But keep in mind that he received Hart votes five times in his career. He had the misfortune of peaking at the same time and Gretzky, and voters only had three spots on their ballot each year - so it was tough for another offensive forward to fight for the last two votes.

Joe Thornton looks pretty good based on this metric.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

VsX summary

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th	10th	7YR	10YR
Joe Thornton	117.9	100.0	97.1	92.1	90.6	87.4	83.9	81.7	79.4	78.2	95.6	90.8
Martin St. Louis	108.0	105.3	100.0	89.5	86.2	79.3	78.3	76.3	72.7	67.3	92.4	86.3
Nels Stewart	100.0	97.1	90.7	90.7	88.7	83.0	81.8	81.8	79.5	77.8	90.3	87.1
Norm Ullman	100.0	100.0	94.4	92.3	85.7	77.8	76.2	75.8	72.5	72.0	89.5	84.7
Patrick Kane	119.1	100.0	96.5	80.7	79.3	74.5	74.4	73.7	68.0	67.9	89.2	83.4
Peter Stastny	100.0	98.3	94.6	86.5	84.7	80.7	74.1	71.3	61.2	56.6	88.4	80.8
Sid Abel	100.0	100.0	92.4	90.7	76.8	76.2	75.0	73.3	58.3	14.8	87.3	75.8
Jarome Iginla	106.7	92.5	86.9	83.9	82.5	80.9	74.0	70.1	69.1	68.6	86.7	81.5
Toe Blake	106.8	85.9	83.7	83.3	83.3	81.9	79.4	75.0	72.7	62.1	86.3	81.4
Eric Lindros	100.0	95.8	86.9	81.1	80.8	78.0	72.5	62.8	51.0	50.7	85.0	76.0
Erik Karlsson	92.1	85.1	80.4	79.8	76.7	60.8	45.5	24.6	23.9		74.3	56.9
Dave Keon	84.4	76.9	74.3	72.6	72.1	70.2	69.2	69.1	60.2	58.2	74.3	70.7
Brian Leetch	87.9	82.3	76.5	71.6	70.8	65.8	61.1	58.6	58.6	54.9	73.7	68.8
Bill Gadsby	71.8	67.2	64.8	61.4	53.2	50.7	44.0	38.9	38.8	36.1	59.0	52.7
Duncan Keith	70.1	63.3	59.6	52.3	48.3	47.4	45.5	41.2	40.0	31.4	55.2	49.9
Mark Howe	67.2	58.2	54.0	53.7	48.1	47.3	43.8	42.2	36.1	27.3	53.2	47.8
Serge Savard	49.6	40.0	39.5	38.5	37.5	36.0	29.0	28.4	19.8	17.9	38.6	33.6

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Here are the 17 skaters who played all (or substantially all) of their careers in the NHL - Esposito, Gerard and Vasiliev are excluded.

Given that we have 11 forwards, there's not a lot separating them. Ten of them have 7-year score between 85 and 96; only Keon lags behind.

Two listed players are active - Kane and Karlsson. Kane is having an excellent season (currently 3rd in scoring) and if he holds off, his 7-year and 10-year scores would jump to approximate 92 and 86 respectively. Karlsson isn't having a great year by his standards, and his 7-year score won't change, but his 10-year score should increase to about 61. (Pretty amazing that he already matches Leetch's 7-yr score, though the American has him beat on longevity and playoffs).

Joe Thornon leads this metric too. How can a player with such a good regular season resume on paper still be available? It's almost as if he has a big weakness elsewhere in his resume...

I'll try to post the playoff R-On/R-Off data when I have time.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

At a quick glance... I like Ullman, Thornton, Kane, Gerard, and Karlsson of the new adds.

Savard has a few prominent supporters that I'm interested in hearing more from.

 

[MXD]

... I think I still have Brian Leetch last.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Interesting executive decision there. When I posted in the "Voting Results" thread, I thought 'might as well resign myself to it- NLs are coming' (and I don't mean Newfoundlanders). But...

if someone told me we'd be offloading a list of 20 at this time- and there'd only be three (3) NLs, I would have said "I'll take it."

However, in a way, it's kind of sad that players who didn't get a whiff of my list will receive the same point-totals as some players who just missed out on my 100th, this Round.

I had a few agonizing last-minute cuts from my 120, which would have at least made for an interesting way to separate one NL from another, should it be needed. NONE of those close-calls are part of the discussion at this time.

... I think I still have Brian Leetch last.

I'm looking on the bright side on this one. This Round, you'll be forced to do an equal amount of damage to nine other nominees!

 

[Nick Hansen]

It feels like we're forgetting someone here when Peter Stastny is involved... he could score 'til his face went blue, no doubt, and he did play in a terribly tough era (in terms of competition) but still looks a bit weak here.

 

[MXD]

... Actually, I think I'm just having one NL here

Edit : Two. Didn't list Lindros. Still wondering whether that was a mistake.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Didn't think Št'astný would be the next Czechoslovak. He's not "de-listed," but he's still well within NR-crosshairs in this group.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Woulda put Hawerchuk before Stastny.

 

[seventieslord]

Now we're talking.

Happy to see Dave Keon, Serge Savard, Patrick Kane and Eddie Gerard in particular among the new candidates.

Tony Esposito?! Peter Stastny!?!?!?

Karlsson there but no Doughty = Meh.

With Belfour just going in, I have no problem with Tony O being here. Stastny? Yeah, he shouldn't get a vote at all.

 

[seventieslord]

Kane and Karlsson instantly look great here. I'd like to see a good comparison between Karlsson and Keith.

the only reason Kane isn't right there with St. Louis in regular season offense, is because this regular season isn't counted. But you could assume he misses the rest of the season, give him a score for that, and he'd tie MSL. A more balanced player with better goal scoring ability. A super clutch scorer and playoff performer. More team success. More "star power/it factor". I don't know what would put MSL over him right now - can anyone explain?

 

[canucks4ever]

Hart trophy shares

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th+	Total
Joe Thornton	1			1	2	1		5
Eric Lindros	1		1			1	1	4
Tony Esposito		1	1		1	1		4
Nels Stewart	2				1			3
Patrick Kane	1					2		3
Jarome Iginla		2	1					3
Martin St. Louis	1		1					2
Sid Abel	1			1				2
Norm Ullman		1			1			2
Mark Howe			1		1			2
Dave Keon				1		1		2
Toe Blake	1							1
Erik Karlsson					1			1
Bill Gadsby								0
Brian Leetch								0
Duncan Keith								0
Peter Stastny								0
Serge Savard								0

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I've listed the 18 players who spent all (or substantially all) of their careers in NHL - Eddie Gerard and Valeri Vasiliev are excluded.

Note that in 2002, Jarome Iginla tied for the Hart trophy, but he lost it to Jose Theodore, who had more first-place votes. This is the only time where I'm breaking a tie in the Hart trophy data that I've been presenting.

As I mentioned last time, Nels Stewart's first Hart trophy was earned during the 1925-26 season, which was right before the NHL consolidated North American talent. Therefore that award should be discounted somewhat (but it was still a dominant season).

How are people going to treat Patrick Kane's current season? Seventy games in, you'd have to think he has a good chance of placing in the top five in Hart voting this year (but, of course, it's not over until it's over).

Peter Stastny being the only forward here without any "significant" Hart seasons doesn't look great. But keep in mind that he received Hart votes five times in his career. He had the misfortune of peaking at the same time and Gretzky, and voters only had three spots on their ballot each year - so it was tough for another offensive forward to fight for the last two votes.

Joe Thornton looks pretty good based on this metric.

According to hockey reference, Peter Stastny finished 4th, 7th and 7th in hart voting.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

According to hockey reference, Peter Stastny finished 4th, 7th and 7th in hart voting.

I'm only posting seasons where a player gets at least 5% of the voting share (to avoid having a couple of throwaway votes distort the rankings). I've updated the post title to make that clearer.

 

[ted2019]

There are 2 rounds left, correct?
The following below didn't make my original list.
Keon
Karlsson
Iginla
Kane
Esposito

 

[canucks4ever]

I'm only posting seasons where a player gets at least 5% of the voting share (to avoid having a couple of throwaway votes distort the rankings). I've updated the post title to make that clearer.

Is that really fair to him though, he's playing in an era where 1 player is sweeping the awards. I personally find Stastny and Perrault were underrated in this project and there is too much of a bias towards 90s players. I would easily take Stastny on my team over Kurri or Brett Hull, but I guess this board disagrees.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

When you're Canada and win an internationnal tournament, it's not necessarily because the brass made the best choices. Also, the best choice isn't necessarily the best player. I mean, Dan Hamhuis was never at any point a better player than Kris Letang...

You're usually making good arguments. This one, while not wrong per se, probably shouldn't be raised in this case, nor should the omission of picking St-Louis (which led directly to his trade to the Rangers) for the OG) be used to explain why the Lightning bowed out in four games in the first round of the 2014 playoffs instead instead of making the SCF, while beating the team that had beaten the Lightning on the way.

Fair points raised. I still find it a little damning though that the highest scoring Canadian winger in the league couldn't crack those rosters though.

The "Lindros-missed-too-many-games" thing always gets overblown, so I think, by people with an agenda against him.

Yes, Lindros missed a lot of games. So did Lemieux and Forsberg and Crosby. Certainly in consideration of career value, Lindros therefore should get dinged for a shorter prime than those guys (although 9 elite seasons in a row -- over a 10 year-period -- isn't exactly shabby), but in comparison of prime years, he played just as often as those three players.

Lindros appeared in 486 games for Philly, out of 626 games Philly played (regular season). So, he appeared in 78% of their games. That's over the eight seasons he was a Flyer.

Over his first eight seasons, Lemieux appeared in 517 games, out of 640 games the Pens played. That's 81% of the games played.

Over his first eight seasons, Forsberg appeared in 494 games, out of 622 games the Avs played. That's 79% of the games played.

Over his first eight seasons, Crosby appeared in 470 of 622 games the Pens played. That's 76% of the games they played.


Now, is eight great seasons as a Flyer, plus one more very good season for the Rangers (and it was a really good season in 2001-02), enough to ignore Lindros's injuries and foreshortened career? Of course not. But make sure you're docking Forsberg and Crosby and Lemieux by the same degree, based on the first 8 seasons (and Lemieux missed WAY more than Lindros after those first eight).

We're not talking about Lafontaine or Turgeon here. When Lemieux was sidelined, Lindros and Jagr (maybe later Forsberg) vied for the position of best player in the world for about five or six years.

Even if the percentages break down as similar, I would still rate Crosby and Forsberg is significantly more durable/reliable than Lindros. Maybe not Lemieux, but Mario remained at a high level far longer.

Forsberg actually only missed more than 10 games in a season twice from 1995 to 2003. He also missed an entire season, but announced this in advance and his team was able to plan accordingly for his absence.

Crosby has proven to be a durable player after the rash of injuries early in his career. Overall, he has four seasons out of 14 where he has been unavailable for significant portions of the season.

Lindros left his team shorthanded for significant stretches of time in five out of eight seasons played in Philadelphia. And in one of the three where he didn't, he suffered a season-ending injury in March and was unavailable for the playoffs. 1995 and 1995-96 are the only two seasons of Lindros' entire career where he survived start to finish without a major injury. IMO, habitually missing 20-some games per year with one ailment after another is worse than missing most or all of an entire season once, but then playing almost every game in the surrounding years. A team can plan accordingly if they know you're on the shelf for the next six months. Constant short-term injuries are more of a nuisance.

 

[quoipourquoi]

There are 2 rounds left, correct?
The following below didn't make my original list.
Keon
Karlsson
Iginla
Kane
Esposito

Yeah, this (90-94), then two more (95-99, 100).

 

[ted2019]

I have a suggestion, since the list is so big now, maybe we should have 2 weeks of discussions to make sure that we get this correct?

 

[ted2019]

I know that I will be taking up the cause of Mark Howe, who might be the most underrated defenseman ever.

 

[BenchBrawl]

A biography I made of Eddie Gerard.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I know that I will be taking up the cause of Mark Howe, who might be the most underrated defenseman ever.

i have always had mark howe a little ahead of brian leetch as the second best american born defenseman

 

[Canadiens1958]

I have a suggestion, since the list is so big now, maybe we should have 2 weeks of discussions to make sure that we get this correct?

Who is this "we" that you pretend to represent?

Suggesting that things are incorrect because of the one week voting schedule?