Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 19

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I have a suggestion, since the list is so big now, maybe we should have 2 weeks of discussions to make sure that we get this correct?

I'm quoting this because it's too important to just "like."

I think that with so many new candidates appearing at once, we should make this a 2 week round.

Assuming we stay at around 20, that means only 5 or so new candidates next round, so we could go back to 1 week then.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He wasn't robbed. I think he went on a scoring spree late in the season when the Flames were already out of the playoffs picture and they fed him big minutes to pad his stats. And, even if he had won that Hart it would have been a pretty weak one.

I'm going to have Iginla fairly high, but I agree with you on 2001-02. I think it was an even weaker season for forwards than 2003-04, and Iginla had the benefit of the Flames doing nothing but padding his stats the last month or so of the season.

I actually think there's a case that the best season of Iginla's career was 2007-08 when he finished 3rd behind Ovechkin in Malkin in both scoring and Hart voting (and was very close to Malkin in Hart voting for #2). And as to be expected, Iginla led his team in scoring by 30+ points in 2007-08 (though he did have young Phaneuf shooting bombs on the PP before the rest of the league figured out Dion).

 

[MXD]

Iginla was robbed of a Hart Trophy in '02 and was one goal away from the Conn Smythe/Stanley Cup in 2004. He was scoring tons of goals in an era where goals were a rarity. And yes, he could fight, and hit, and backchecked, and forechecked. I have him somewhere in the middle of this group.

1 voter left Jarome Iginla off its ballot.
4 voters left Jose Theodore off theirs.

So, no, he wasn't. Theodore might've been robbed, however.

 

[seventieslord]

Patrick Kane is a major liability defensively. Check his +/-.

Patrick Kane Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

+4 over 127 playoff games means covered and protected. Advantage of 1 ES goal every 31.75 playoff gamesishis contribution.

Norm Ullman. Worse than Kane defensively:

Norm Ullman Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Canadiens if they controlled the match-ups felt comfortable playing the 3rd or 4th line centered by Ralph Backstrom,Phil Goyette against Ullman's line.

Ullman being bad defensively is not supported by any contemporary opinion I can find.

 

[seventieslord]

I'm quoting this because it's too important to just "like."

I think that with so many new candidates appearing at once, we should make this a 2 week round.

Assuming we stay at around 20, that means only 5 or so new candidates next round, so we could go back to 1 week then.

With this much discussion in front of us, we should definitely streatch this to two weeks.

 

[MXD]

To be honest...
At this point, I think there's really only three skaters left who, I think, HAVE to make this list, only two of them available, and I'm pretty sure everyone figured out who I see as absolutely essential in this round. The other is non-available, so I'm not gonna disclose his name or anything; as a clue, I'd say that his career was over by 1960.

But there is indeed a few players with good cases.

 

[DannyGallivan]

1 voter left Jarome Iginla off its ballot.
4 voters left Jose Theodore off theirs.

So, no, he wasn't. Theodore might've been robbed, however.

Remind me again, who is this Theodore you speak of?

 

[MXD]

Remind me again, who is this Theodore you speak of?

The player who rightfully won the Hart award in 2002, despite being left of the ballots of 4 voters.

Also led its team to playoffs, on a year where the best skater would've been 3rd C on Iginla's team.

 

[DannyGallivan]

The player who rightfully won the Hart award in 2002, despite being left of the ballots of 4 voters.

Back in the days when goalkeeping consisted of dropping to one's knees and letting the puck hit the massive equipment. I was far more impressed with Iginla's play that season (as was others, hence his Ted Lindsay award). And not to linger over that one Hart-or-no-Hart point too long, but his body of work makes him a logical choice to at least garner strong consideration in the top ten this round.

 

[sr edler]

I was far more impressed with Iginla's play that season (as was others, hence his Ted Lindsay award).

Markus Näslund won a Lindsay over Forsberg in that exact same mini era, i.e. the bleak late stages of the DPE.

If it's a relatively even race, Lindsay voting often seems to benefit nice guys (Yzerman, Iginla, Näslund) and not grumpy divers like Forsberg or emotional head case goalies.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Kane and Karlsson instantly look great here. I'd like to see a good comparison between Karlsson and Keith.

the only reason Kane isn't right there with St. Louis in regular season offense, is because this regular season isn't counted. But you could assume he misses the rest of the season, give him a score for that, and he'd tie MSL. A more balanced player with better goal scoring ability. A super clutch scorer and playoff performer. More team success. More "star power/it factor". I don't know what would put MSL over him right now - can anyone explain?

i think even assuming this season ends ten games early and kane gets a 3rd in goals and points, he is *slightly* behind MSL in regular season scoring.

2003: MSL, 28th
2004: MSL, 1st
2006: MSL, 76th
2007: MSL, 5th
2008: MSL, 12th - kane, 28th
2009: MSL, 16th - kane, 39th
2010: MSL, 6th - kane, 9th
2011: MSL, 2nd - kane, 15th
2012: MSL, 18th - kane, 33rd
2013: MSL, 1st - kane, 5th
2014: MSL, 19th - kane, 19th
2015: MSL, 79th - kane, 29th
2016: kane, 1st
2017: kane, 2nd
2018: kane, 26th
2019: kane, 3rd*

so if you look at the year by year, with their identical-length primes, MSL has the slight edge in top tens (basically, the difference between their 2010 seasons, the 5th best season for both guys), and more seasons in the 10-20 range.

kane maybe pulls even if you value goals, but it's not like MSL was really that slanted of an assists guy. he does have a 4th and 5th place finish in goals and as late as his second last season he still outscored kane by one goal.

but i also have kane ahead overall, because of the playoffs.

EDIT: but the sizable gap in two-way ability makes kane's overall lead over MSL very very small.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Markus Näslund won a Lindsay over Forsberg in that exact same mini era, i.e. the bleak late stages of the DPE.

If it's a relatively even race, Lindsay voting often seems to benefit nice guys (Yzerman, Iginla, Näslund) and not grumpy divers like Forsberg or emotional head case goalies.

That's actually an interesting point I hadn't really thought of.

 

[Batis]

Here you have a breakdown of the SPOTY, Izvestia Golden Stick and WHC All-Star voting records of Vasiliev compared to the other top defencemen.

Soviet player of the year voting shares (67/68-89/90)

3-year average:
1. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.558
2. Valery Vasiliev 0.187
3. Alexey Kasatonov 0.089

5-year average:
1. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.520
2. Valery Vasiliev 0.154
3. Alexey Kasatonov 0.073

7-year average:
1. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.456
2. Valery Vasiliev 0.129
3. Alexey Kasatonov 0.060

And here are their results season by season.

Vyacheslav Fetisov
85/86: 184/282 = 0.652
81/82: 116/222 = 0.523
87/88: 129/258 = 0.500
88/89: 110/237 = 0.464
84/85: 122/264 = 0.462
83/84: 82/261 = 0.314
77/78: 61/219 = 0.279
82/83: 44/243 = 0.181
86/87: 27/267 = 0.101
3-year average: 0.558
5-year average: 0.520
7-year average: 0.456

Valery Vasiliev
73/74: 39/168 = 0.232
78/79: 345/1734 = 0.199
79/80: 27/207 = 0.130
74/75: 23/195 = 0.118
80/81: 20/222 = 0.090
81/82: 17/222 = 0.077
72/73: 10/177 = 0.056
76/77: 9/228 = 0.039
75/76: 2/192 = 0.010
77/78: 2/219 = 0.009
3-year average: 0.187
5-year average: 0.154
7-year average: 0.129

Alexey Kasatonov
82/83: 29/243 = 0.119
83/84: 20/261 = 0.077
84/85: 19/264 = 0.072
86/87: 16/267 = 0.060
81/82: 8/222 = 0.036
80/81: 7/222 = 0.032
87/88: 7/258 = 0.027
88/89: 5/237 = 0.021
85/86: 3/282 = 0.011
79/80: 2/207= 0.010
3-year average: 0.089
5-year average: 0.073
7-year average: 0.060

Looking at the voting shares it becomes perhaps even more clear just how much of an outlier Fetisov was among Soviet defencemen. Additionally Fetisov compares very well to most of the top forwards in the voting as well and when it comes to 7-year average Makarov is the only forward ahead of Fetisov for example. The only relative weakness on Fetisovs SPOTY voting record is that he "only" recieved votes in 9 seasons which actually is less than Vasiliev and Kasatonov who both recieved votes in 10 seasons.

It is also very clear that Vasilievs voting record is far stronger than Kasatonovs even without taking into account for that one of Vasilievs strongest seasons was in 78/79 where we only have the Izvestia golden stick voting in which it seems to have been somewhat more difficult to get a high voting share.

Izvestia golden stick voting:

Voting finishes: 2nd, 3rd, 8th and 8th

Even if Vasiliev already was 29 years old the first season that the Izvestia Golden Stick was awarded he very clearly has the second strongest voting record among defencemen behind Fetisov. Here below you have his results in detail.

Izvestia golden stick voting

1978/79:
1) Boris Mikhaylov 435 (120-27-21)
2) Valery Vasilyev 345 (48-66-69)
3) Valery Kharlamov 300 (84-21-6)
4) Sergey Makarov 279 (48-45-45)
5) Vladislav Tretyak 189 (24-42-33)
6) Vladimir Petrov 129 (15-27-30)

1979/80:
1) Sergey Makarov 550 (137-62-27)
2) Boris Mikhaylov 384
3) Valery Vasilyev 175
4) Mats Näslund 166
5) Jukka Porvari 163
6) Vladislav Tretyak 143
7) Vladimir Krutov 114
8) Peter Šťastný 102
9) Pelle Lindbergh 81
10) Aleksandr Maltsev 77

1980/81
1) Vladislav Tretyak 462 (119-51-3)
2) Aleksandr Maltsev 453 (115-54-0)
3) Jiří Lála 160 (27-31-17)
4) Sergey Makarov 151 (25-27-22)
5) Peter Lindmark 142 (25-24-9)
6) ?
7) Vladimír Martinec
8) Valery Vasilyev

1981/82
1) Vladislav Tretyak 224 (61-11-19)
2) Milan Nový 217 (46-31-17)
3) Viktor Shalimov 191 (58-7-3)
4) Jiří Lála 175 (56-2-3)
5) Miroslav Dvořák 160 (24-27-34)
6) Sergey Makarov
7) Jiří Králik (or 9th)?
8) Valery Vasilyev
9) ?

WHC All-Star voting record:

Here you can see how Vasiliev compares to the other 3 defencemen with the strongest WHC All-Star voting records.

Vyacheslav Fetisov: 1st (1978), 1st (1982), 1st (1985), 1st (1986), Tied for 1st (1987), 1st (1989), 2nd (1990), Top 2 (1983), Top 2 (1991)

Fetisov has by far the most impressive WHC All.Star voting record among defencemen. 6 times finishing first or tied for first in the voting which means that he was voted the top defenceman by the media one more time than by the directorate. Fetisov having 11 years between his first and last 1st place finish in the voting and 13 years between his first and last top 2 finish also really stands out.

Valeri Vasiliev: 1st (1975), Tied for 1st (1981), 2nd (1974), Top 2 (1977), Top 2 (1979), Top 4 (1978)

Even if both Suchy and Kasatonov have very strong voting records I would probably say that Vasiliev has the second strongest WHC All-Star voting record among defencemen. Considering that Vasiliev was voted the top defenceman by the directorate in both 1977 and 1979 (tied with Bubla) it seems likely that he did very well in the All-Star voting at those tournaments as well. It is perhaps also worth noting that Vasiliev in 1981 was tied for 1st place in the All-Star voting with Larry Robinson and with both Fetisov and Kasatonov playing at that tournament as well I think that it is fair to say that the competition at the position was very strong. Considering that Vasiliev was voted the top defenceman of the 1973 WHC by the directorate it seems likely that he recieved some voting support from the media that tournament as well even when we know that he did not make the First All-Star Team.

Jan Suchy: 1st (1968), 1st (1969), 1st (1970), 1st (1971), Tied for 9th (1974)

Suchys 1968-1971 stretch with four straight times leading the All-Star voting among defencemen is very impressive and something that only Fetisov managed to equal between 1985 and 1989. The problem with Suchy is of course that he outside of his incredible peak did not achieve very much of value although he did get some fringe support in 1974 as well. If one values peak performance highly I think that a case could be made for Suchy having the second most impressive voting record among defencemen though.

Alexei Kasatonov: 2nd (1982), 2nd (1985), 2nd (1986), Top 2 (1983), Top 2 (1991), 4th (1987)

While Kasatonov played in Fetisovs shadow during his prime his voting record is still very impressive. Being a 5-time First Team All-Star and a 1-time Second Team All-Star is a testiment to his great consistency and elite longevity on the international stage. With that said I think that it is harder to argue for Kasatonov being ahead of Vasiliev when it comes to WHC All-Star voting records than doing the same for Suchy considering that Vasiliev had similar consistency and elite longevity while clearly peaking higher than Kasatonov.

And here you have the results of other defencemen with more than one top 3 finish.

Frantisek Pospisil: 1st (1976), 2nd (1972), Top 2 (1977)
Lennart Svedberg: 2nd (1968), 2nd (1969), 2nd (1970), Tied for 5th (1965), Tied for 8th (1971)
Alexander Ragulin: 2nd (1965), 2nd (1967), Top 2 (1963), Top 2 (1964), Top 2 (1966), Tied for 13th (1972)
Jiri Bubla: 2nd (1978), Top 2 (1979), Tied for 6th (1974), Tied for 13th (1972)
Oldrich Machac: 1st (1972), 3rd (1974), 4th (1969)
Anders Eldebrink: 2nd (1989), 3rd (1990)

Conclusion:
Both in the SPOTY and the Izvestia golden stick voting Vasiliev very clearly has the second most impressive voting records among defencemen behind Fetisov. When it comes to WHC All-Star voting I would rank Vasiliev in second place as well but I think that a case could be made for Suchy if one highly values peak performance.

However while I do think that Vasiliev has a rather strong case for being a top 100 player I personally think that he is more of a 95-100 range player than a 90-94 range player so I doubt that I will rank him in my top 5 already in this round.

 

[MXD]

Back in the days when goalkeeping consisted of dropping to one's knees and letting the puck hit the massive equipment. I was far more impressed with Iginla's play that season (as was others, hence his Ted Lindsay award). And not to linger over that one Hart-or-no-Hart point too long, but his body of work makes him a logical choice to at least garner strong consideration in the top ten this round.

... That's the era of Brodeur, Hasek, Belfour and Roy, by the way.

I mean, no issue with Iginla winning the Pearson.
But saying he was robbed of the Hart because of a rogue voter is, for a lack of a better word and in the best case, wrong.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Markus Näslund won a Lindsay over Forsberg in that exact same mini era, i.e. the bleak late stages of the DPE.

If it's a relatively even race, Lindsay voting often seems to benefit nice guys (Yzerman, Iginla, Näslund) and not grumpy divers like Forsberg or emotional head case goalies.

Lindsay voters favor the best player with 1 month left in the season because that's when most of the players vote. Hart voters (correctly) put a lot of emphasis on peformance down the stretch . It's the main reason I take Hart voting a lot more seriously than Lindsay voting.

 

[DannyGallivan]

... That's the era of Brodeur, Hasek, Belfour and Roy, by the way.

I mean, no issue with Iginla winning the Pearson.
But saying he was robbed of the Hart because of a rogue voter is, for a lack of a better word and in the best case, wrong.

I never said anything about a rogue voter. I just thought that he was clearly the best player in the NHL that season. Again, my issue with the Hart... is it MVP or is it MOP. In my view, it should be MOP. But whatever...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Here you have a breakdown of the SPOTY, Izvestia Golden Stick and WHC All-Star voting records of Vasiliev compared to the other top defencemen.

Soviet player of the year voting shares (67/68-89/90)

3-year average:
1. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.558
2. Valery Vasiliev 0.187
3. Alexey Kasatonov 0.089

5-year average:
1. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.520
2. Valery Vasiliev 0.154
3. Alexey Kasatonov 0.073

7-year average:
1. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.456
2. Valery Vasiliev 0.129
3. Alexey Kasatonov 0.060

And here are their results season by season.

Vyacheslav Fetisov
85/86: 184/282 = 0.652
81/82: 116/222 = 0.523
87/88: 129/258 = 0.500
88/89: 110/237 = 0.464
84/85: 122/264 = 0.462
83/84: 82/261 = 0.314
77/78: 61/219 = 0.279
82/83: 44/243 = 0.181
86/87: 27/267 = 0.101
3-year average: 0.558
5-year average: 0.520
7-year average: 0.456

Valery Vasiliev
73/74: 39/168 = 0.232
78/79: 345/1734 = 0.199
79/80: 27/207 = 0.130
74/75: 23/195 = 0.118
80/81: 20/222 = 0.090
81/82: 17/222 = 0.077
72/73: 10/177 = 0.056
76/77: 9/228 = 0.039
75/76: 2/192 = 0.010
77/78: 2/219 = 0.009
3-year average: 0.187
5-year average: 0.154
7-year average: 0.129

Alexey Kasatonov
82/83: 29/243 = 0.119
83/84: 20/261 = 0.077
84/85: 19/264 = 0.072
86/87: 16/267 = 0.060
81/82: 8/222 = 0.036
80/81: 7/222 = 0.032
87/88: 7/258 = 0.027
88/89: 5/237 = 0.021
85/86: 3/282 = 0.011
79/80: 2/207= 0.010
3-year average: 0.089
5-year average: 0.073
7-year average: 0.060

Looking at the voting shares it becomes perhaps even more clear just how much of an outlier Fetisov was among Soviet defencemen. Additionally Fetisov compares very well to most of the top forwards in the voting as well and when it comes to 7-year average Makarov is the only forward ahead of Fetisov for example. The only relative weakness on Fetisovs SPOTY voting record is that he "only" recieved votes in 9 seasons which actually is less than Vasiliev and Kasatonov who both recieved votes in 10 seasons.

It is also very clear that Vasilievs voting record is far stronger than Kasatonovs even without taking into account for that one of Vasilievs strongest seasons was in 78/79 where we only have the Izvestia golden stick voting in which it seems to have been somewhat more difficult to get a high voting share.

Izvestia golden stick voting:

Voting finishes: 2nd, 3rd, 8th and 8th

Even if Vasiliev already was 29 years old the first season that the Izvestia Golden Stick was awarded he very clearly has the second strongest voting record among defencemen behind Fetisov. Here below you have his results in detail.



WHC All-Star voting record:

Here you can see how Vasiliev compares to the other 3 defencemen with the strongest WHC All-Star voting records.

Vyacheslav Fetisov: 1st (1978), 1st (1982), 1st (1985), 1st (1986), Tied for 1st (1987), 1st (1989), 2nd (1990), Top 2 (1983), Top 2 (1991)

Fetisov has by far the most impressive WHC All.Star voting record among defencemen. 6 times finishing first or tied for first in the voting which means that he was voted the top defenceman by the media one more time than by the directorate. Fetisov having 11 years between his first and last 1st place finish in the voting and 13 years between his first and last top 2 finish also really stands out.

Valeri Vasiliev: 1st (1975), Tied for 1st (1981), 2nd (1974), Top 2 (1977), Top 2 (1979), Top 4 (1978)

Even if both Suchy and Kasatonov have very strong voting records I would probably say that Vasiliev has the second strongest WHC All-Star voting record among defencemen. Considering that Vasiliev was voted the top defenceman by the directorate in both 1977 and 1979 (tied with Bubla) it seems likely that he did very well in the All-Star voting at those tournaments as well. It is perhaps also worth noting that Vasiliev in 1981 was tied for 1st place in the All-Star voting with Larry Robinson and with both Fetisov and Kasatonov playing at that tournament as well I think that it is fair to say that the competition at the position was very strong. Considering that Vasiliev was voted the top defenceman of the 1973 WHC by the directorate it seems likely that he recieved some voting support from the media that tournament as well even when we know that he did not make the First All-Star Team.

Jan Suchy: 1st (1968), 1st (1969), 1st (1970), 1st (1971), Tied for 9th (1974)

Suchys 1968-1971 stretch with four straight times leading the All-Star voting among defencemen is very impressive and something that only Fetisov managed to equal between 1985 and 1989. The problem with Suchy is of course that he outside of his incredible peak did not achieve very much of value although he did get some fringe support in 1974 as well. If one values peak performance highly I think that a case could be made for Suchy having the second most impressive voting record among defencemen though.

Alexei Kasatonov: 2nd (1982), 2nd (1985), 2nd (1986), Top 2 (1983), Top 2 (1991), 4th (1987)

While Kasatonov played in Fetisovs shadow during his prime his voting record is still very impressive. Being a 5-time First Team All-Star and a 1-time Second Team All-Star is a testiment to his great consistency and elite longevity on the international stage. With that said I think that it is harder to argue for Kasatonov being ahead of Vasiliev when it comes to WHC All-Star voting records than doing the same for Suchy considering that Vasiliev had similar consistency and elite longevity while clearly peaking higher than Kasatonov.

And here you have the results of other defencemen with more than one top 3 finish.

Frantisek Pospisil: 1st (1976), 2nd (1972), Top 2 (1977)
Lennart Svedberg: 2nd (1968), 2nd (1969), 2nd (1970), Tied for 5th (1965), Tied for 8th (1971)
Alexander Ragulin: 2nd (1965), 2nd (1967), Top 2 (1963), Top 2 (1964), Top 2 (1966), Tied for 13th (1972)
Jiri Bubla: 2nd (1978), Top 2 (1979), Tied for 6th (1974), Tied for 13th (1972)
Oldrich Machac: 1st (1972), 3rd (1974), 4th (1969)
Anders Eldebrink: 2nd (1989), 3rd (1990)

Conclusion:
Both in the SPOTY and the Izvestia golden stick voting Vasiliev very clearly has the second most impressive voting records among defencemen behind Fetisov. When it comes to WHC All-Star voting I would rank Vasiliev in second place as well but I think that a case could be made for Suchy if one highly values peak performance.

However while I do think that Vasiliev has a rather strong case for being a top 100 player I personally think that he is more of a 95-100 range player than a 90-94 range player so I doubt that I will rank him in my top 5 already in this round.

Vasiliev is going to be hard-pressed to get voted into my top 100. He correctly gets lots of mileage out of being the only defenseman who could regularly get the puck out of his own zone against Canada in the 1970s, but being the best of a relatively mediocre Soviet defense = meh (at this point!)

Don't get me wrong, he'd almost certainly be in my top 150. (I forget if he was on my top 120 Round 1 list; I'm intentionally not looking at it much during Round 2). But he shouldn't be over countryman Alexander Maltsev. Not over fellow non-NHL Euro Vladimir Martinec.

I'm not sold on him over fellow defensmen Keith, Gadsby, Leetch, or Karlsson, either

 

[Canadiens1958]

Punch Imlach picked Norm Ullman (NOT Dave Keon) as the best center he ever coached

First off, this detailed Norm Ullman bio goes into his all-round game: ATD2011 Bio Thread

No, Ullman certainly wasn't an all-time great defensive center on the level of Dave Keon. But he was a good defensive player, by every contemporary source I've read. And his offense was much better than Keon's.

Was the offensive advantage in favor of Ullman enough to make him a better player than Dave Keon? Maple Leafs coach Punch Imlach seems to have thought so.

In 1968-69, Imlach made a personal "All-Star team" of the best players he coached over the last 10 years.

This was his team:

Frank Mahovlich-Norm Ullman-George Armstrong
Tim Horton - Carl Brewer
Johnny Bower

Imlach is quoted in the article announcing the team as saying that Norm Ullman was "the best all-round player he's had in the last 10 years."

The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search

Players that Imlach coached. Not saw or coached against. Real measure would be who Imlach played against Ullman given the match-up hammer.

So do revise the list to include Johnny Bower and George Armstrong?

Do we bump Andy Bathgate for George Armstrong? Certainly a supportable idea.

 

[Captain Bowie]

My Initial Thoughts:

Wow! Now it's a party!

4 players available that didn't make my 120; Kane, Keon got consideration and weren't far off. Vasliev, probably had one other Russian/Euro ahead of him off the list, and Gerard. Holy I must have really missed the boat on him, I don't even have him on any of my initial research lists. Must have been an era thing. I look forward to learning about him, I have no pre-conceived notions going in.

All of the modern forwards that I like are here, Marty, Jearome and Jumbo. Kane more on the outside looking in but this season isn't hurting him.

I think I was too high on Stastny on my initial list.

I could see no other goalie making it onto the list the rest of the way, as preposterous as that probably seems to @MXD

 

[Canadiens1958]

I'm quoting this because it's too important to just "like."

I think that with so many new candidates appearing at once, we should make this a 2 week round.

Assuming we stay at around 20, that means only 5 or so new candidates next round, so we could go back to 1 week then.

No. When you lobbied for more candidates you neglected lobbying for a longer voting period.

Quit wasting time and focus on the matter at hand. One week is plenty.

 

[MXD]

My Initial Thoughts:

Wow! Now it's a party!

4 players available that didn't make my 120; Kane, Keon got consideration and weren't far off. Vasliev, probably had one other Russian/Euro ahead of him off the list, and Gerard. Holy I must have really missed the boat on him, I don't even have him on any of my initial research lists. Must have been an era thing. I look forward to learning about him, I have no pre-conceived notions going in.

All of the modern forwards that I like are here, Marty, Jearome and Jumbo. Kane more on the outside looking in but this season isn't hurting him.

I think I was too high on Stastny on my initial list.

I could see no other goalie making it onto the list the rest of the way, as preposterous as that probably seems to @MXD

To be honest, at this point, there's only four guys who I see as "must candidates" (and I'm not even talking about making the final list) : Esposito, Holecek, Worters and Lundqvist. Don't laugh for Lundqvist. He's been really good for rather long, comparatively speaking. Not that much of a difference between him and Esposito. His Vezina record is artificially high, but there's something to be said about being consistently good in a time where no goalie really is.

Still can't decide which would be the most egregious "miss" between the last three. I'm convinced Worters is the best of that bunch, but his playoff record is REALLY inexistent.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Players that Imlach coached. Not saw or coached against. Real measure would be who Imlach played against Ullman given the match-up hammer.

So do revise the list to include Johnny Bower and George Armstrong?

Do we bump Andy Bathgate for George Armstrong? Certainly a supportable idea.

Bathgate never seemed to fit in well in Toronto.

And I do think it's semi-noteworthy that prime Bower > post-prime Sawchuk, but Sawchuk was already raked over the coals for his post-1955 career.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Ullman being bad defensively is not supported by any contemporary opinion I can find.

Look at the NHL archival data.

Twice led the Red Wings forwards, in minus. 1960 and 1962.

Bottom half defensively of O6 centers.

 

[MXD]

Look at the NHL archival data.

Twice led the Red Wings forwards, in minus. 1960 and 1962.

Bottom half defensively of O6 centers.

- He wasn't the worse +/- Wing forward in 1960.
- It might be purely deployment-related.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

No. When you lobbied for more candidates you neglected lobbying for a longer voting period.

Quit wasting time and focus on the matter at hand. One week is plenty.

One week (really 3-4 days) "plenty" for discussing 15 new players? If for no other reason, I think that future readers would want to read at least a little about everyone listed here.

PS. I was "lobbying" for a pool of 15 or so, and that was weeks ago. Don't mind an even larger pool, but I think it would be best to be able to discuss them all!