Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 19

[Hockey Outsider]

Is that really fair to him though, he's playing in an era where 1 player is sweeping the awards. I personally find Stastny and Perrault were underrated in this project and there is too much of a bias towards 90s players. I would easily take Stastny on my team over Kurri or Brett Hull, but I guess this board disagrees.

I already wrote about that in my post.

 

[sr edler]

I know that I will be taking up the cause of Mark Howe, who might be the most underrated defenseman ever.

Don't you mean offenseman?




Of the new ones I guess I like Keon and Kane. Most of the others, meh.

 

[DannyGallivan]

For those of us who remember the 70's, Tony O was an icon. Bad luck in the playoffs, specifically against the Habs. Stats took a beating as he got older and his notorious bad eyesight got worse.

 

[wetcoast]

Kane and Karlsson instantly look great here. I'd like to see a good comparison between Karlsson and Keith.

the only reason Kane isn't right there with St. Louis in regular season offense, is because this regular season isn't counted. But you could assume he misses the rest of the season, give him a score for that, and he'd tie MSL. A more balanced player with better goal scoring ability. A super clutch scorer and playoff performer. More team success. More "star power/it factor". I don't know what would put MSL over him right now - can anyone explain?

I think Thornton is the strongest current player to come up as the current season isn't in play.

Glad to see Mark Howe was a top forward in the WHA and an excellent 2 way Dman in the 90s, should be ahead of Savard easily.

 

[seventieslord]

I think Thornton is the strongest current player to come up as the current season isn't in play.

Glad to see Mark Howe was a top forward in the WHA and an excellent 2 way Dman in the 90s, should be ahead of Savard easily.

Why is the current season not in play?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Why is the current season not in play?

It is.

 

[seventieslord]

It is.

Yeah, I would expect that anything that has already happened to date would count.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Wow, lots of new candidates this time around. My initial thoughts on them...

Dave Keon: One of my highest ranking unavailable players up until now. Revered for his leadership and all-around game. Key cog on 1960s Toronto dynasty, arguably their most important player. More than worthy of induction to the list at this stage.

Eddie Gerard: Considered one of the all-time greats at the time of his retirement. Versatile, well-respected leader of the Ottawa dynasty. I would have no problem calling him the second most important player on those teams after Nighbor. Mainly a defenseman, but could shift to forward as needed. I'm not sure Gerard's career is significantly different from Red Kelly's Red Wings career. An easy choice for induction at this point.

Erik Karlsson: Maybe one day, but not now. Career mirrors that of Brian Leetch pretty closely up until age 28, and while Leetch didn't add a ton to his case after that, being a top-pairing defenseman in the NHL for several years is still much more valuable than seasons that have yet to be played.

Jarome Iginla: Great player, not top-100 of all time great though. A rare case of Eastern media somewhat overrating a Western-based player. "Hits, fights, scores" was the mantra, and it was true to an extent, but Iginla took plenty of nights off too.

Joe Thornton: Superb longevity, consistency, and production. At some point being great in the regular season in a pretty difficult environment (went up against Getzlaf and Kopitar within his division for many years now) has to count for something. Playoffs are not good, no way around that. But I really question why Marcel Dionne would go so many rounds in front of Thornton. Jumbo Joe wouldn't be a bad induction in this round.

Mark Howe: He's on my radar. Perhaps a little lacking for elite seasons at first glance, but he didn't enter the NHL until age 24. His +/- numbers are staggering for a guy who didn't play on a dynasty or even a Cup-winner.

Norm Ullman: Curious to hear more about him from those who watched him. Truly great, or was he more just "good" for a long time?

Patrick Kane: The trophy case has certainly ballooned in recent seasons, but the team success has gone in the opposite direction. Remains to be seen if him (and Toews) can reboot the Blackhawks after the loss of strong depth players from their Cup-winning teams. The most clutch playoff goal-scorer of his generation is a nice feather in his cap, not sure if it's enough to make the list though.

Peter Stastny: He has a case here. Remember, he was an elite player in Europe for several years behind the Iron Curtain. As good an offensive player as anyone not named Gretzky during the first half of the 1980s. Probably could have been a 100-point player in the NHL for years before he actually arrived. Another center in the Thornton/Dionne mold, though his playoff results are generally better than theirs are.

Serge Savard: A defensive anchor on an all-time great dynasty. Those who witnessed his career live seem to be in agreement that awards/all-star voting sells him short. Descriptions give me the impression of a player who could be great both offensively and defensively as the situation required.

Sid Abel: Abel is every bit as good as Elmer Lach (inducted two rounds ago) in my books. In addition, he lost three prime seasons to WWII. I suspect it will be between him and Keon for who my top rated centre is for this vote. Hart Trophy voters considered him the best player on the Production Line until Howe truly broke out in the early 50s.

Toe Blake: Not out of place, but I might need to be sold here. I'm not sure he really has a better case than Jarome Iginla (who I'm not high on at this stage).

Tony Esposito: Not entirely sure what to make of Tony O. First part of his career seems quite comparable to Ed Belfour, who just got inducted. Unlike Belfour, who eventually signed with a franchise on the rise and won a Stanley Cup, Esposito played out his entire career on a Chicago team that declined pretty quickly after Bobby Hull left town. Leaning towards "no" on whether or not he's a top 100 guy.

Valeri Vasiliev: In my mind, I have him in the same neighbourhood as Serge Savard. People that are more familiar with him than myself will outline his case, and I look forward to what they have to say.

 

[MXD]

Kane and Karlsson instantly look great here. I'd like to see a good comparison between Karlsson and Keith.

the only reason Kane isn't right there with St. Louis in regular season offense, is because this regular season isn't counted. But you could assume he misses the rest of the season, give him a score for that, and he'd tie MSL. A more balanced player with better goal scoring ability. A super clutch scorer and playoff performer. More team success. More "star power/it factor". I don't know what would put MSL over him right now - can anyone explain?

Patrick Kane is and was a very sheltered player.
(And he doesn't even look bad in this group)

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Since I've already been 'known' by Bill Cowley, it's Erik Karlsson, Joe Thornton and Serge Savard who are left to vie for that thing that Sean Avery talked about...

Capital Crime if omitted from final list:
1) Jarome Iginla. When I was rendering placings on my Prelim List, he went from "all right, he's good" to "hey, he's really good" to "what was wrong with me for overlooking him earlier?!" Maybe you'll think the same, upon review.

2) Valeri Vasiliev. Fetisov & Kasatanov didn't play the entire game for Team CCCP, you know. Another star we can eye-test. Let's make sure we do.

Felony if omitted from final list:
1) Brian Leetch. The way people are ranking him, you'd think that he asked to be used/abused/injured in the final third of his career.
2) Eric Lindros. If you have Forsberg in your upper-half and think Lindros should be out of the top-100, I really have to ask why you're holding the Surveying Transit at a different angle now.
3) Bill Gadsby. Mark Howe is NOT the most underrated Defenseman. This man is.
4) Duncan Keith. Underratings follow hemi-dynasty BlackHawks players everywhere, it seems.
5) Sid Abel. Don't overlook the Wartime time-loss with this one...

Misdemeanor if omitted from list:
1) Tony Esposito. Yeah- is he really that much worse than Belfour?!?
2) Toe Blake - although maybe we gave too much shine to Lach to have any left over for him.

 

[Michael Farkas]

A biography I made of Eddie Gerard.

Quoting this so people read it.

I have a lot of time for Eddie Gerard and Mark Howe. They will likely feature prominently for me in this expansive list.

Savard and Keon are guys I like a lot too...

Tough travel week for me as the USHL season winds down...but hopefully I can contribute...

 

[Michael Farkas]

Capital Crime if omitted from final list:
1) Jarome Iginla. When I was rendering placings on my Prelim List, he went from "all right, he's good" to "hey, he's really good" to "what was wrong with me for overlooking him earlier?!" Maybe you'll think the same, upon review.

2) Valeri Vasiliev. Fetisov & Kasatanov didn't play the entire game for Team CCCP, you know. Another star we can eye-test. Let's make sure we do.

For my last meal...

(I don't like either of these players for the top 100...was pretty unimpressed given the scale of VV. Coming from a guy who had Fetisov in his top-15...)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

20 candidates is kind of a mess, but at least we have choices.

First glance - Patrick Kane, Norm Ullman, Joe Thornton, and Jarome Iginla look quite good among newcomers. Toe Blake is pretty good too.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Since I've already been 'known' by Bill Cowley, it's Erik Karlsson, Joe Thornton and Serge Savard who are left to via for that thing that Sean Avery talked about...

Capital Crime if omitted from final list:
1) Jarome Iginla. When I was rendering placings on my Prelim List, he went from "all right, he's good" to "hey, he's really good" to "what was wrong with me for overlooking him earlier?!" Maybe you'll think the same, upon review.

2) Valeri Vasiliev. Fetisov & Kasatanov didn't play the entire game for Team CCCP, you know. Another star we can eye-test. Let's make sure we do.

Felony if omitted from final list:
1) Brian Leetch. The way people are ranking him, you'd think that he asked to be used/abused/injured in the final third of his career.
2) Eric Lindros. If you have Forsberg in your upper-half and think Lindros should be out of the top-100, I really have to ask why you're holding the Surveying Transit at a different angle now.
3) Bill Gadsby. Mark Howe is NOT the most underrated Defenseman. This man is.
4) Duncan Keith. Underratings follow hemi-dynasty BlackHawks players everywhere, it seems.
5) Sid Abel. Don't overlook the Wartime time-loss with this one...

Misdemeanor if omitted from list:
1) Tony Esposito. Yeah- is he really that much worse than Belfour?!?
2) Toe Blake - although maybe we gave too much shine to Lach to have any left over for him.

You've been quite high on Iginla throughout it seems...what is your case for him?

I think an awful lot of weight would need to be placed on Iginla's best couple of seasons for him to crack this list. After his big breakout in 2001-02, be basically turned into Brendan Shanahan for four years.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

VsX summary

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th	10th	7YR	10YR
Joe Thornton	117.9	100.0	97.1	92.1	90.6	87.4	83.9	81.7	79.4	78.2	95.6	90.8
Martin St. Louis	108.0	105.3	100.0	89.5	86.2	79.3	78.3	76.3	72.7	67.3	92.4	86.3
Nels Stewart	100.0	97.1	90.7	90.7	88.7	83.0	81.8	81.8	79.5	77.8	90.3	87.1
Norm Ullman	100.0	100.0	94.4	92.3	85.7	77.8	76.2	75.8	72.5	72.0	89.5	84.7
Patrick Kane	119.1	100.0	96.5	80.7	79.3	74.5	74.4	73.7	68.0	67.9	89.2	83.4
Peter Stastny	100.0	98.3	94.6	86.5	84.7	80.7	74.1	71.3	61.2	56.6	88.4	80.8
Sid Abel	100.0	100.0	92.4	90.7	76.8	76.2	75.0	73.3	58.3	14.8	87.3	75.8
Jarome Iginla	106.7	92.5	86.9	83.9	82.5	80.9	74.0	70.1	69.1	68.6	86.7	81.5
Toe Blake	106.8	85.9	83.7	83.3	83.3	81.9	79.4	75.0	72.7	62.1	86.3	81.4
Eric Lindros	100.0	95.8	86.9	81.1	80.8	78.0	72.5	62.8	51.0	50.7	85.0	76.0
Erik Karlsson	92.1	85.1	80.4	79.8	76.7	60.8	45.5	24.6	23.9		74.3	56.9
Dave Keon	84.4	76.9	74.3	72.6	72.1	70.2	69.2	69.1	60.2	58.2	74.3	70.7
Brian Leetch	87.9	82.3	76.5	71.6	70.8	65.8	61.1	58.6	58.6	54.9	73.7	68.8
Bill Gadsby	71.8	67.2	64.8	61.4	53.2	50.7	44.0	38.9	38.8	36.1	59.0	52.7
Duncan Keith	70.1	63.3	59.6	52.3	48.3	47.4	45.5	41.2	40.0	31.4	55.2	49.9
Mark Howe	67.2	58.2	54.0	53.7	48.1	47.3	43.8	42.2	36.1	27.3	53.2	47.8
Serge Savard	49.6	40.0	39.5	38.5	37.5	36.0	29.0	28.4	19.8	17.9	38.6	33.6

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Here are the 17 skaters who played all (or substantially all) of their careers in the NHL - Esposito, Gerard and Vasiliev are excluded.

Given that we have 11 forwards, there's not a lot separating them. Ten of them have 7-year score between 85 and 96; only Keon lags behind.

Two listed players are active - Kane and Karlsson. Kane is having an excellent season (currently 3rd in scoring) and if he holds off, his 7-year and 10-year scores would jump to approximate 92 and 86 respectively. Karlsson isn't having a great year by his standards, and his 7-year score won't change, but his 10-year score should increase to about 61. (Pretty amazing that he already matches Leetch's 7-yr score, though the American has him beat on longevity and playoffs).

Joe Thornon leads this metric too. How can a player with such a good regular season resume on paper still be available? It's almost as if he has a big weakness elsewhere in his resume...

I'll try to post the playoff R-On/R-Off data when I have time.

IIMO, Thornton, Ullman, and Kane are the only forwards left without whom our final list would be defective.

What would Kane's scores be if the current season ended today?

Keep in mind that Ullman was in something of a Henri Richard situation, where he was a great two-way player who scored most of his points at even stength. Unlike Richard, Ullman never won the Cup, but he had some great personal performances. He also usually played on a different line from Gordie Howe.

I think Stastny is the first guy to appear who wasn't in my top 120 at all.

----

Re defensemen: I was pretty high on Karlsson in round 1, but I'm actually surprised his 7 year prime already looks similar to Leetch's from an offensive perspective.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You've been quite high on Iginla throughout it seems...what is your case for him?

I think an awful lot of weight would need to be placed on Iginla's best couple of seasons for him to crack this list. After his big breakout in 2001-02, be basically turned into Brendan Shanahan for four years.

I'm pretty high on Iginla. He put up those numbers playing in the more defensive conference on a team with a good goalie and not much else.

Of course the tables from the wingers project got destroyed in the migration, but his R-on / R-off ratios were insane; as in historically strong. Much better than Martin St Louis's ratios. Evidence that Iginla's grinding game really helped his team control the puck.

He was also voted best leader in the NHL by fellow players at one point.

 

[Canadiens1958]

20 candidates is kind of a mess, but at least we have choices.

First glance - Patrick Kane, Norm Ullman, Joe Thornton, and Jarome Iginla look quite good among newcomers. Toe Blake is pretty good too.

Patrick Kane is a major liability defensively. Check his +/-.

Patrick Kane Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

+4 over 127 playoff games means covered and protected. Advantage of 1 ES goal every 31.75 playoff gamesishis contribution.

Norm Ullman. Worse than Kane defensively:

Norm Ullman Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Canadiens if they controlled the match-ups felt comfortable playing the 3rd or 4th line centered by Ralph Backstrom,Phil Goyette against Ullman's line.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I'm pretty high on Iginla. He put up those numbers playing in the more defensive conference on a team with a good goalie and not much else.

Of course the tables from the wingers project got destroyed in the migration, but his R-on / R-off ratios were insane; as in historically strong. Much better than Martin St Louis's ratios. Evidence that Iginla's grinding game really helped his team control the puck.

He was also voted best leader in the NHL by fellow players at one point.

I'll certainly give Iginla credit for coming within a whisker of winning the Stanley Cup on a roster where Craig Conroy might have been the second-best skater.

 

[sr edler]

I think an awful lot of weight would need to be placed on Iginla's best couple of seasons for him to crack this list. After his big breakout in 2001-02, be basically turned into Brendan Shanahan for four years.

I'm also not super sold on Iginla and views him like a slightly better glorified but perhaps less versatile Markus Näslund who could fight and thus looked more consistently engaged. Iginla's valleys = Shanahan, is perhaps even giving him too much. He had that one run in 04 though, on the plus side, but that Flames team carried a lot of weight on goalie/defense.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

IIMO, Thornton, Ullman, and Kane are the only forwards left without whom our final list would be defective.

What would Kane's scores be if the current season ended today?

Keep in mind that Ullman was in something of a Henri Richard situation, where he was a great two-way player who scored most of his points at even stength. Unlike Richard, Ullman never won the Cup, but he had some great personal performances. He also usually played on a different line from Gordie Howe.

I think Stastny is the first guy to appear who wasn't in my top 120 at all.

----

Re defensemen: I was pretty high on Karlsson in round 1, but I'm actually surprised his 7 year prime already looks similar to Leetch's from an offensive perspective.

See my first post: "Two listed players are active - Kane and Karlsson. Kane is having an excellent season (currently 3rd in scoring) and if he holds off, his 7-year and 10-year scores would jump to approximate 92 and 86 respectively. Karlsson isn't having a great year by his standards, and his 7-year score won't change, but his 10-year score should increase to about 61. (Pretty amazing that he already matches Leetch's 7-yr score, though the American has him beat on longevity and playoffs)."

Among forwards, I think Ullman and Stewart would be serious omissions from our final list. I think I'm there with Kane as well (I'll admit I underrated him on my initial list - though part of it is he's having any outstanding season this year). I definitely see the argument for Thornton but he has enough negatives (despite a ton of positives) that I think it wouldn't be crucial if he was excluded from our final list.

At this point, all but Johnny Bower from my top 100 list are either on our list, or up for discussion.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I'm also not super sold on Iginla and views him like a slightly better glorified but perhaps less versatile Markus Näslund who could fight and thus looked more consistently engaged. Iginla's valleys = Shanahan, is perhaps even giving him too much. He had that one run in 04 though, on the plus side, but that Flames team carried a lot of weight on goalie/defense.

Iginla was robbed of a Hart Trophy in '02 and was one goal away from the Conn Smythe/Stanley Cup in 2004. He was scoring tons of goals in an era where goals were a rarity. And yes, he could fight, and hit, and backchecked, and forechecked. I have him somewhere in the middle of this group.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

See my first post: "Two listed players are active - Kane and Karlsson. Kane is having an excellent season (currently 3rd in scoring) and if he holds off, his 7-year and 10-year scores would jump to approximate 92 and 86 respectively. Karlsson isn't having a great year by his standards, and his 7-year score won't change, but his 10-year score should increase to about 61. (Pretty amazing that he already matches Leetch's 7-yr score, though the American has him beat on longevity and playoffs)."

Among forwards, I think Ullman and Stewart would be serious omissions from our final list. I think I'm there with Kane as well (I'll admit I underrated him on my initial list - though part of it is he's having any outstanding season this year). I definitely see the argument for Thornton but he has enough negatives (despite a ton of positives) that I think it wouldn't be crucial if he was excluded from our final list.

At this point, all but Johnny Bower from my top 100 list are either on our list, or up for discussion.

Oops, missed that. With those VsX scores, Kane ends up within the margin of error of Selanne, right? And that's just regular season.

Thornton's negatives are the playoffs. Or more specifically, he goes too easily into "passive playmaker" mode, which is easier to defend. (Versus a playmaker like Forsberg who kept defenses honest with his shot in the playoffs). His positives are that he's developed into a really responsible two-way player the second half of his career. Plus, of course, having the best regular season offensive record left, now that Cowley is gone.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

At a quick glance... I like Ullman, Thornton, Kane, Gerard, and Karlsson of the new adds.

Savard has a few prominent supporters that I'm interested in hearing more from.

I'm just going to throw this out there in response to your post - Isn't the main argument for Savard that he was just that important to a dynasty team? And isn't there a similar (and IMO better) argument for Duncan Keith?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Punch Imlach picked Norm Ullman (NOT Dave Keon) as the best center he ever coached

First off, this detailed Norm Ullman bio goes into his all-round game: ATD2011 Bio Thread

No, Ullman certainly wasn't an all-time great defensive center on the level of Dave Keon. But he was a good defensive player, by every contemporary source I've read. And his offense was much better than Keon's.

Was the offensive advantage in favor of Ullman enough to make him a better player than Dave Keon? Maple Leafs coach Punch Imlach seems to have thought so.

In 1968-69, Imlach made a personal "All-Star team" of the best players he coached over the last 10 years.

This was his team:

Frank Mahovlich-Norm Ullman-George Armstrong
Tim Horton - Carl Brewer
Johnny Bower

Imlach is quoted in the article announcing the team as saying that Norm Ullman was "the best all-round player he's had in the last 10 years."

The Montreal Gazette - Google News Archive Search

 

[sr edler]

Iginla was robbed of a Hart Trophy in '02

He wasn't robbed. I think he went on a scoring spree late in the season when the Flames were already out of the playoffs picture and they fed him big minutes to pad his stats. And, even if he had won that Hart it would have been a pretty weak one.