Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 15

[DannyGallivan]

Post #50. Bowman talks in generalities "excellent" player mentioning Firsov's passing skills BUT Bowman does not praise Firsov in the same fashion after coaching against his team in 1965.

Dubious interpretation and use of Bowman's 2010 quote.

With all due respect to Scotty Bowman, didn't he come up with a list of best players that was largely criticized (well, out-right mocked) in these forums? I'm going from memory on this.

 

[Theokritos]

Post #50. Bowman talks in generalities "excellent" player mentioning Firsov's passing skills (...)

Dubious interpretation and use of Bowman's 2010 quote.

Bowman singled out Firsov as the best Russian player he had seen. The quote is what it is.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Surprisingly, perhaps, Hitchcock also said Hull was the best passer on the team.

on a team with sergei zubov, that's very high praise indeed.

on the other hand, wtf does ken hitchcock know about judging offense?

 

[sr edler]

With all due respect to Scotty Bowman, didn't he come up with a list of best players that was largely criticized (well, out-right mocked) in these forums? I'm going from memory on this.

My memory is that he ranked Wendel Clark above Doug Gilmour.

 

[Canadiens1958]

With all due respect to Scotty Bowman, didn't he come up with a list of best players that was largely criticized (well, out-right mocked) in these forums? I'm going from memory on this.

Top 100 Canadian Players by Scotty Bowman:

Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players

 

[DN28]

Some more thoughts about the quality of pre-1972 European hockey.

I believe that the distinction of 1960s Soviet teams compared to previous and subsequent generations has to be made. Since USSR entered the international competition at WHC 1954, they were one of the best teams, but not the best team, up to 1963. Between 1954-1961, Soviets had 2 golden medals, 4 silver medals and 2 bronze medals. Eastern bloc countries then decided not to participate for political reasons at WHC 1962. Soviet dynasty followed afterwards, when they won every single major international tournament from 1963 till Olympics 1972.

As mentioned in my previous post, Canadians started to send their “official” National team in 1964. Before that, teams representing Canada were usually Allan Cup winners, just one amateur club team from a specific town which happened to be good enough. I assume that these pre-1964 Canadian teams had to be significantly worse than Father Bauer´s ‘Canada Nationals’. Yet we know that ever since Firsov became a member of Soviet National team in 1964, Canadian National team could not hold their own versus the Soviets.

Let´s examine the changes in Soviet roster in early 60s.

OG 1960, Soviet roster:
Yuri Tsitsinov
Vladimir Grebennikov
Mikhail Bychkov
Viktor Pryazhnikov
Nikolai Karpov
Nikolai Puchkov
Yevgeny Groshev
Viktor Yakushev
Stanislav Petukhov
Yevgeny Yorkin
Nikolai Sologubov
Yuri Baulin
Aleksandr Almetov
Konstantin Loktev
Veniamin Alexandrov
Genrikh Sidorenkov
Alfred Kuchevski

Bolded players are the only one who were still members of USSR team at OG 1964. Only five players (all forwards) were solid enough to withstand the ongoing shake-up.

OG 1964, Soviet roster:
Viktor Konovalenko
Boris Zaitsev
Vitaly Davydov
Eduard Ivanov
Alexandr Ragulin
Oleg Zaitsev
Viktor Kuzkin
Vyacheslav Starshinov
Boris Maiorov
Viktor Yakushev
Konstantin Loktev
Veniamin Alexandrov
Anatoli Firsov
Alexander Almetov
Leonid Volkov
Stanislav Petukhov
Evgeni Maiorov

More to the point, here´s the Soviet roster from WHC 1961:
Boris Maiorov
Konstantin Loktev
Vyacheslav Starshinov
Veniamin Alexandrov
Nikolai Snetkov
Alexander Almetov
Genrikh Sidorenkov
Evgeni Maiorov
Ivan Tregubov
Viktor Yakushev
Alexander Ragulin
Nikolai Sologubov
Vladimir Yurzinov
Viktor Tsyplakov
Vladimir Brezhnev
Vladimir Chinov
Viktor Konovalenko

Bolded players are the ones who continue to play at the next Championship that Soviets played which was 1963 (remember Soviets skipped the ´62 WHC). We can see that 6 players were cut off, what do they have in common? 4 of these 6 players were d-men (Snetkov, Sidorenkov, Tregubov, Brezhnev), 5th was goalie (Chinov) and 6th was the only forward who did not survive the 1962 skip (Tsyplakov). Ragulin and Sologubov were only d-men who played internationally before and after 1962 – and Sologubov played only one single game at the ´63 WHC, while Ragulin was just 19 y/o rookie in 1961. In other words, in order for Soviets to establish their dynasty in 1963, they threw out almost all the blueliners they had relied on previously.

Soviet roster from WHC 1963:
Vladimir Yurzinov
Alexander Almetov
Vyacheslav Starshinov
Veniamin Alexandrov
Boris Maiorov
Stanislav Petukhov
Yuri Volkov
Evgeni Maiorov
Viktor Yakushev
Eduard Ivanov
Alexander Ragulin
Vitali Davydov
Viktor Kuzkin
Nikolai Sologubov
Yuri Paramoshkin
Viktor Konovalenko
Boris Zaitsev

So regardless of if we looked at the Soviets or Canadians, I´d identify the 1963 as the benchmark or milestone. In terms of periodization, there is post-war European hockey 1946-1962, then there is the transition period in between 1963-1972, and then we have post-Summit Series 1972-1989 European hockey. Each stage was a bit different. Post-war 40s, 50s, early 60s hockey was shaped by stars that were mainly offense-only forwards such as Vsevolod Bobrov, Sven Tumba, Vladimir Zabrodsky. Not that there weren´t notable two-way skaters (Nikolai Sologubov, Vlastimil Bubnik), but European teams were more shaped by elite one-way forwards for whom other linemates had to play for, compared to following eras.

On one hand, I´d like to think that given the approximately 5 decades of organized European hockey, the post-WW2 European hockey stars had already so much of history behind them that it´s hard to imagine they couldn´t compete with everyone in every league in their times with the skills the likes of Tumba, Zabrodsky or Bobrov possessed. On the other hand, it´s harder to achieve recognition for these players when it appears they didn´t separate themselves from North American international forwards too much. One example could be Jackie McLeod who played for New York Rangers for 5 seasons between 1950-1955 and in only two of those seasons McLeod played more than half the season for the Rangers. Doesn´t seem that McLeod became anything more than below-average NHL player. After his NHL departure, McLeod spent the next 5 seasons playing in WHL. When he was 30 until 32 years old, he played in international competition between 1961-1963. Based on my quick count, no one scored more points during these three subsequent championships than him. Thus McLeod is a little bit of head-scratcher to me because it sheds some dim light on achievements of pre-1963 Euro players, if somewhat of a former average to below-average NHL player could have played on par with the best of what Europe had to offer at the time.

This all is what finally separates Firsov from his great European predecessors. No other forward, regardless of continent, could have matched the scoring numbers that Firsov was recording in his peak. No other forward before was so consistently voted as the best forward of those championships. And no European star from pre-Firsov generation probably reached the same offensive heights while actually maintaining an outstanding two-way play.

It looks that Firsov defines that 1963-1972 transition period by becoming the best forward without sacrificing the needs of the team. In a way, Firsov was a prototypical Soviet player who always submits to whatever coach´s strategy or plan. Playing defensively while mentoring rookies in the team? Sure. Playing as team´s prime offensive weapon? Sure. Switching between positions (LW to C) if the collective demands it? Of course. Leading all by example with his well noted strict conscientious approach to training despite becoming arguably biggest star on European rinks? Of course. Playmaking? Yes. Goalscoring, shooting? Yes. Penalty killing? Yes, I can excel in that too…

With all the talk, doubts and questions about Firsov´s or in general pre-1972 competition - as legitimite as they are - people may be forgetting that Firsov distinguished himself from the pre-1963 pack of players MORE than how the post-1972 European players distinguished themselves from Firsov and his era.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Brett Hull, for all his faults, must be given credit for successfully integrating championship teams coached by notoriously defensive and demanding coaches like Ken Hitchcock and Scotty Bowman at the tail end of his career.

If this never happened from lack of opportunity, no one would believe he could have done it, and anyone arguing for it would be laughed out of the thread.Brett Hull and Ken Hitchcock or Scotty Bowman doesn't exactly sound like a match made in heaven.

I'm not saying he should make it now, but that's a huge point in his favor.

It is a point in his favor, but still... even in Dallas, Brett Hull's plus/minuses relative to the rest of his team were quite poor.

It's the story of Hull's career - weak even strength plus/minus numbers (R-on, R-off) compared to the rest of his team. Really gives the impression of a guy who tends to end possession when the puck is on his stick - either by taking a shot or turning the puck over.

 

[BenchBrawl]

It is a point in his favor, but still... even in Dallas, Brett Hull's plus/minuses relative to the rest of his team were quite poor.

It's the story of Hull's career - weak even strength plus/minus numbers (R-on, R-off) compared to the rest of his team. Really gives the impression of a guy who tends to end possession when the puck is on his stick - either by taking a shot or turning the puck over.

Hull is a weapon, a take it or leave it situation.

Clearly Hitchcock and Bowman thought having this weapon brought some "meta value" to their chances of winning, even if he was seemingly a black hole at even-strenght.

That being said, he's going against Denneny, Kurri and Mahovlich right now, all of which contributed to championship teams too.I don't particularly like him over any of those guys.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Top 100 Canadian Players by Scotty Bowman:

Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players

At least he got 1 and 2 correct.

 

[BenchBrawl]

The most interesting ranking in Bowman's list is Serge Savard over Larry Robinson.

Still waiting for Savard to become eligible...

 

[wetcoast]

Disagreeing that Firsov should rank here is one thing. Putting him in the same breath as Tony Hand another.

And we know why tony Hand won't come up for discussion right? It was the level of competition that he played against putting up those video game numbers.

Surely we must use the same analysis to look at every players level of competition right?

or does it only apply to guys Tony Hand and Erich Kühnhackl who while being very good players, even more so for Eric played on really weak hockey national teams.

It was an exaggeration to prove a point, obviously Hand doesn't apply here due to the level of competition he lays against, even though he showed quite well as a 19 year old in a short 3 game stint with the WHL Victoria cougars going 3-4-4-8 before returning home to Scotland because he was homesick.

Of Course Firsov became a better player than Tony Hand (Hand playing back in the UK did extremely little for his development) but Firsov also faced very weak competition in the pond he was dominant in (international events).

How many other top 100 or even 200 players would lose exhibition games after training with their professional team for a long period of time to a put together junior team with s a couple of other players, like firsov did in the 60's tour that C1958 has documented?

Glossing over that major point seems very bewildering, especially when wingers like Hull and Kurri are available this round.

Even if one does think that Firsov is a top 120ish player is he really better than hull who led the NHL in goals for 3 consecutive years from 90-92 by a margin of 70 goals over the 2nd place Steve Yzerman.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Let that sink in for a minute, even if Brett hull was injured and plays zero games in 91-92, his 2 season goal scoring would equal what Steve Yzerman did in the 3 year time period.

Hull, as mentioned upthread also was a very good international player in best on best tournaments, also was very good in playoff play and has great longevity.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Some more thoughts about the quality of pre-1972 European hockey.

I believe that the distinction of 1960s Soviet teams compared to previous and subsequent generations has to be made. Since USSR entered the international competition at WHC 1954, they were one of the best teams, but not the best team, up to 1963. Between 1954-1961, Soviets had 2 golden medals, 4 silver medals and 2 bronze medals. Eastern bloc countries then decided not to participate for political reasons at WHC 1962. Soviet dynasty followed afterwards, when they won every single major international tournament from 1963 till Olympics 1972.

As mentioned in my previous post, Canadians started to send their “official” National team in 1964. Before that, teams representing Canada were usually Allan Cup winners, just one amateur club team from a specific town which happened to be good enough. I assume that these pre-1964 Canadian teams had to be significantly worse than Father Bauer´s ‘Canada Nationals’. Yet we know that ever since Firsov became a member of Soviet National team in 1964, Canadian National team could not hold their own versus the Soviets.

Let´s examine the changes in Soviet roster in early 60s.

OG 1960, Soviet roster:
Yuri Tsitsinov
Vladimir Grebennikov
Mikhail Bychkov
Viktor Pryazhnikov
Nikolai Karpov
Nikolai Puchkov
Yevgeny Groshev
Viktor Yakushev
Stanislav Petukhov
Yevgeny Yorkin
Nikolai Sologubov
Yuri Baulin
Aleksandr Almetov
Konstantin Loktev
Veniamin Alexandrov
Genrikh Sidorenkov
Alfred Kuchevski

Bolded players are the only one who were still members of USSR team at OG 1964. Only five players (all forwards) were solid enough to withstand the ongoing shake-up.

OG 1964, Soviet roster:
Viktor Konovalenko
Boris Zaitsev
Vitaly Davydov
Eduard Ivanov
Alexandr Ragulin
Oleg Zaitsev
Viktor Kuzkin
Vyacheslav Starshinov
Boris Maiorov
Viktor Yakushev
Konstantin Loktev
Veniamin Alexandrov
Anatoli Firsov
Alexander Almetov
Leonid Volkov
Stanislav Petukhov
Evgeni Maiorov

More to the point, here´s the Soviet roster from WHC 1961:
Boris Maiorov
Konstantin Loktev
Vyacheslav Starshinov
Veniamin Alexandrov
Nikolai Snetkov
Alexander Almetov
Genrikh Sidorenkov
Evgeni Maiorov
Ivan Tregubov
Viktor Yakushev
Alexander Ragulin
Nikolai Sologubov
Vladimir Yurzinov
Viktor Tsyplakov
Vladimir Brezhnev
Vladimir Chinov
Viktor Konovalenko

Bolded players are the ones who continue to play at the next Championship that Soviets played which was 1963 (remember Soviets skipped the ´62 WHC). We can see that 6 players were cut off, what do they have in common? 4 of these 6 players were d-men (Snetkov, Sidorenkov, Tregubov, Brezhnev), 5th was goalie (Chinov) and 6th was the only forward who did not survive the 1962 skip (Tsyplakov). Ragulin and Sologubov were only d-men who played internationally before and after 1962 – and Sologubov played only one single game at the ´63 WHC, while Ragulin was just 19 y/o rookie in 1961. In other words, in order for Soviets to establish their dynasty in 1963, they threw out almost all the blueliners they had relied on previously.

Soviet roster from WHC 1963:
Vladimir Yurzinov
Alexander Almetov
Vyacheslav Starshinov
Veniamin Alexandrov
Boris Maiorov
Stanislav Petukhov
Yuri Volkov
Evgeni Maiorov
Viktor Yakushev
Eduard Ivanov
Alexander Ragulin
Vitali Davydov
Viktor Kuzkin
Nikolai Sologubov
Yuri Paramoshkin
Viktor Konovalenko
Boris Zaitsev

So regardless of if we looked at the Soviets or Canadians, I´d identify the 1963 as the benchmark or milestone. In terms of periodization, there is post-war European hockey 1946-1962, then there is the transition period in between 1963-1972, and then we have post-Summit Series 1972-1989 European hockey. Each stage was a bit different. Post-war 40s, 50s, early 60s hockey was shaped by stars that were mainly offense-only forwards such as Vsevolod Bobrov, Sven Tumba, Vladimir Zabrodsky. Not that there weren´t notable two-way skaters (Nikolai Sologubov, Vlastimil Bubnik), but European teams were more shaped by elite one-way forwards for whom other linemates had to play for, compared to following eras.

On one hand, I´d like to think that given the approximately 5 decades of organized European hockey, the post-WW2 European hockey stars had already so much of history behind them that it´s hard to imagine they couldn´t compete with everyone in every league in their times with the skills the likes of Tumba, Zabrodsky or Bobrov possessed. On the other hand, it´s harder to achieve recognition for these players when it appears they didn´t separate themselves from North American international forwards too much. One example could be Jackie McLeod who played for New York Rangers for 5 seasons between 1950-1955 and in only two of those seasons McLeod played more than half the season for the Rangers. Doesn´t seem that McLeod became anything more than below-average NHL player. After his NHL departure, McLeod spent the next 5 seasons playing in WHL. When he was 30 until 32 years old, he played in international competition between 1961-1963. Based on my quick count, no one scored more points during these three subsequent championships than him. Thus McLeod is a little bit of head-scratcher to me because it sheds some dim light on achievements of pre-1963 Euro players, if somewhat of a former average to below-average NHL player could have played on par with the best of what Europe had to offer at the time.

This all is what finally separates Firsov from his great European predecessors. No other forward, regardless of continent, could have matched the scoring numbers that Firsov was recording in his peak. No other forward before was so consistently voted as the best forward of those championships. And no European star from pre-Firsov generation probably reached the same offensive heights while actually maintaining an outstanding two-way play.

It looks that Firsov defines that 1963-1972 transition period by becoming the best forward without sacrificing the needs of the team. In a way, Firsov was a prototypical Soviet player who always submits to whatever coach´s strategy or plan. Playing defensively while mentoring rookies in the team? Sure. Playing as team´s prime offensive weapon? Sure. Switching between positions (LW to C) if the collective demands it? Of course. Leading all by example with his well noted strict conscientious approach to training despite becoming arguably biggest star on European rinks? Of course. Playmaking? Yes. Goalscoring, shooting? Yes. Penalty killing? Yes, I can excel in that too…

With all the talk, doubts and questions about Firsov´s or in general pre-1972 competition - as legitimite as they are - people may be forgetting that Firsov distinguished himself from the pre-1963 pack of players MORE than how the post-1972 European players distinguished themselves from Firsov and his era.

Excellent effort.

Three points.

Soviets were the first mainstream European team to tour Canada/North America. Such tours increased after 1962. This has to be looked at especially in terms of measuring and evaluating players.

Soviet defencemen. Excellent point. Really the motor behind their team offence. The transitions are rather interesting and reflect the Soviet perception of NHL defencemen.Sologubov group ressembles the Harvey influence.The Ragulin group, more passive, post Harvey/pre Orr.Followed by theVasiliev group,more complete, Orr to date.

Jackie McLeod reflects the rule differences between the IIHF and the NHL. Post NHL players, like McLeod who did well under IIHF rules and pre NHL players, Charlie Burns, Red Berenson, Bobby Rousseau whose careers received a push.

 

[Canadiens1958]

The most interesting ranking in Bowman's list is Serge Savard over Larry Robinson.

Still waiting for Savard to become eligible...

Yes,the lack of logical coherence of those who cherry pick Bowman's list and opinions.

 

[wetcoast]

Top 100 Canadian Players by Scotty Bowman:

Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players

Yes and by looking at that list he had the Big M 18th, surely those relying on quotes by Scotty Bowman will have in this round as well?

That's the problem with looking at quotes and how they pertain to this project, its a rel guess as to exactly what is surrounding certain quotes unless one can have a Q&A with the person being quoted as it pertains to this project.

to the screeners of this project would they have allowed Bowman's list of Candian players, say with 20 non NHLers sprinkled in acceptable order or would alot of his Canadian rankings have been questioned and poster Bowman would have been asked to refine his list?

I think the answer to that question is extremely obvious with
Gretzky at 5
Keon at 11,
Gainey at 33
Esposito at 40 (I actually can get on board with that one a bit, but I digress)
Steve Shutt 53
Bill Barber 57
George Armstrong 61
Bryan Trottier 62
Tim Horton 81

Man that's just a really bad list

 

[wetcoast]

Hull is a weapon, a take it or leave it situation.

Clearly Hitchcock and Bowman thought having this weapon brought some "meta value" to their chances of winning, even if he was seemingly a black hole at even-strenght.

That being said, he's going against Denneny, Kurri and Mahovlich right now, all of which contributed to championship teams too.I don't particularly like him over any of those guys.

Isn't he going against Firsov as well?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Playoff R-On and R-Off

Jari Kurri

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1980-81	9	4.00	0.63	540%
1981-82	5	1.33	0.85	58%
1982-83	16	2.14	2.00	7%
1983-84	19	1.53	2.68	-43%
1984-85	18	2.44	1.76	38%
1985-86	10	1.00	1.92	-48%
1986-87	21	1.73	1.57	10%
1987-88	19	2.36	1.16	104%
1988-89	7	0.71	1.29	-44%
1989-90	22	1.93	1.41	37%
1991-92	4	1.50	0.82	83%
1992-93	24	1.12	1.08	3%
1995-96	11	0.78	0.71	9%
1996-97	11	1.33	0.39	243%
1997-98	4	-	1.00	-100%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Kurri has excellent results. He has the 3rd highest R-On of all-time (among forwards with 100+ playoff games). He generally played on strong teams, so his R-Off is very high as well, but overall he has a very favourable ratio. His career numbers are very similar to Guy Lafleur. It's possible that his numbers are skewed because he spent so many years playing with prime Gretzky, the most dominant ES scorer in hockey history. But, aside from 1989 and 1998, his results away from Gretzky are very positive as well.

Brett Hull

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1985-86	2	#DIV/0!	1.04	#DIV/0!
1986-87	4	#DIV/0!	0.43	#DIV/0!
1987-88	10	1.14	0.58	97%
1988-89	10	0.71	1.21	-41%
1989-90	12	1.10	0.68	61%
1990-91	13	1.36	0.86	58%
1991-92	6	1.67	0.64	162%
1992-93	11	0.71	0.75	-5%
1993-94	4	1.33	0.43	211%
1994-95	7	1.00	1.63	-38%
1995-96	13	1.40	1.12	25%
1996-97	6	2.33	-	#DIV/0!
1997-98	10	0.63	0.69	-9%
1998-99	22	1.25	1.57	-20%
1999-00	23	1.19	1.00	19%
2000-01	10	0.86	0.85	1%
2001-02	23	1.06	2.12	-50%
2002-03	4	0.20	0.60	-67%
2003-04	12	1.00	1.07	-6%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Hull has good results overall, albeit inconsistent. His R-On to R-Off ratio is 111% (which, believe it or not, is exactly the same as Lemieux's). His results in Detroit in 2002 were unimpressive relative to his teams. He had a few missteps earlier in his career, but generally his run from 1988 to 1996 is very impressive.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Interesting - Hull's regular season

Playoff R-On and R-Off

Jari Kurri

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1980-81	9	4.00	0.63	540%
1981-82	5	1.33	0.85	58%
1982-83	16	2.14	2.00	7%
1983-84	19	1.53	2.68	-43%
1984-85	18	2.44	1.76	38%
1985-86	10	1.00	1.92	-48%
1986-87	21	1.73	1.57	10%
1987-88	19	2.36	1.16	104%
1988-89	7	0.71	1.29	-44%
1989-90	22	1.93	1.41	37%
1991-92	4	1.50	0.82	83%
1992-93	24	1.12	1.08	3%
1995-96	11	0.78	0.71	9%
1996-97	11	1.33	0.39	243%
1997-98	4	-	1.00	-100%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Kurri has excellent results. He has the 3rd highest R-On of all-time (among forwards with 100+ playoff games). He generally played on strong teams, so his R-Off is very high as well, but overall he has a very favourable ratio. His career numbers are very similar to Guy Lafleur. It's possible that his numbers are skewed because he spent so many years playing with prime Gretzky, the most dominant ES scorer in hockey history. But, aside from 1989 and 1998, his results away from Gretzky are very positive as well.

Brett Hull

Season	Games	R ON	R OFF	INCREASE
1985-86	2	#DIV/0!	1.04	#DIV/0!
1986-87	4	#DIV/0!	0.43	#DIV/0!
1987-88	10	1.14	0.58	97%
1988-89	10	0.71	1.21	-41%
1989-90	12	1.10	0.68	61%
1990-91	13	1.36	0.86	58%
1991-92	6	1.67	0.64	162%
1992-93	11	0.71	0.75	-5%
1993-94	4	1.33	0.43	211%
1994-95	7	1.00	1.63	-38%
1995-96	13	1.40	1.12	25%
1996-97	6	2.33	-	#DIV/0!
1997-98	10	0.63	0.69	-9%
1998-99	22	1.25	1.57	-20%
1999-00	23	1.19	1.00	19%
2000-01	10	0.86	0.85	1%
2001-02	23	1.06	2.12	-50%
2002-03	4	0.20	0.60	-67%
2003-04	12	1.00	1.07	-6%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Hull has good results overall, albeit inconsistent. His R-On to R-Off ratio is 111% (which, believe it or not, is exactly the same as Lemieux's). His results in Detroit in 2002 were unimpressive relative to his teams. He had a few missteps earlier in his career, but generally his run from 1988 to 1996 is very impressive.

Interesting. Hull's R-on/R-off presented during the wingers project showed that he consistently bled goals against in the regular season, but seems he (or at least his line!) wasn't nearly so bad in the playoffs.

 

[Theokritos]

With all due respect to Scotty Bowman, didn't he come up with a list of best players that was largely criticized (well, out-right mocked) in these forums?

Yes and by looking at that list he had the Big M 18th, surely those relying on quotes by Scotty Bowman will have in this round as well?

Folks, no-one is saying Bowman's statement is the final gospel. It is being taken with a grain of salt, otherwise Firsov would have to rank in the mid-20s of the top 100 list or higher.

Since we don't have a direct comparison between Firsov and the NHL, we either leave him out of the top 100 completely or we look for circumstantial evidence. Like Firsov's prime (- 1972) overlapping with the primes of players like Kharlamov (1968 -) and Firsov being considered the superior player until 1971. Like Veli-Pekka Ketola saying that Firsov was a better overall player than Kharlamov. Like the coaches of the Canadian national team putting the Soviet team on par with the NHL (minus the SC finalists) and claiming Firsov would be one of the very few Soviets who could play in the NHL despite of the different styles. Like Marshall Johnson saying Firsov might have been the greatest player he has seen. Like Bowman claiming Firsov was the best Russian player he had seen.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Additional Musings- Dit Clapper

Dit Clapper's career is almost perfectly bisected (chronologically, anyway) by his stints at RW and D, respectively- 10 seasons at one, and 10 seasons at the other. To be sure, it's been pointed out that Clapper's final two campaigns were stub-years and don't add anything of significance to his legacy. Yeah- sucks getting old. But looking at the shape of his career, I think I have some additional insight as to why he was so respected by his contemporaries that they dispensed with the waiting period for his Hall of Fame induction.

To return to a discovery I made in my Depression-Era Hart voting research, the early part of Clapper's era placed a really high premium on being available for as many of your team's games as biologically possible. Preferably, all of them. A different mentality then- choose your metaphor: Ride or Die, March or Die, or (if you like 'Deadliest Catch')- be there for your crew-mates unless the bone's sticking out of your skin. Effort-cost management- f*** that!

No great wonder, then, that we see so many careers during that time came to a screeching halt not long after guys made their way into their 30s. The fact that Clapper was productive into his mid-30s was, in the context of his era, impressive-- even allowing for some mental parenthetical adjustment for diluted War Years.

So how did Clapper do, by those standards, during his years as a RW? 10 seasons played- 11 games missed. The span 1931-32 to 1934-35 was four consecutive seasons of 'perfect attendance.' In an era that placed such a high value on 'answering the bell' every game, it must have been widely admired...

Then, he switched over to D. A period of adjustment could be expected, and is (I believe) fully understandable. Still, a season after the switch, he set out on a three-year journey that involved back-to-back-to-back AS-1 placings, and two Stanley Cups.

To recycle a flight-of-fancy that I've used previously, imagine having such a man as a teammate. Imagine having him on your bench if you're a coach.

 

[blogofmike]

In a way, Firsov was a prototypical Soviet player who always submits to whatever coach´s strategy or plan.

Good post, but I'm sure Tikhonov would have disagreed with that assessment.

Here's the 1968 Olympics roster next to the 1972 Summit roster. Anyone who played a game is in, even if it is just one. Sorted by position, and then by points. Red means they were 1968 holdovers. From 2 different sources so there will be occasional spelling differences. I caught a couple of Yevgeni/Evgeni, but something else might have slipped by.

1968 Olympic Team	Age	1972 Summit Team	Age
Goaltenders
Viktor Konovalenko	29	Vladislav Tretiak	20
Viktor Zinger	26
Defence
Viktor Blinov	22	Yuri Liapkin	27
Vitaly Davydov	28	Vladimir Lutchenko	23
Viktor Kuzkin	27	Valeri Vasiliev	23
Alexander Ragulin	26	Gennady Tsygankov	25
Oleg Zaytsev	28	Alexander Gusev	25
Igor Romishevsky	27	Viktor Kuzkin	32
		Alexander Ragulin	31
		Evgeny Paladiev	24
		Yuri Shatalov	27
Forwards
Anatoly Firsov	27	Alexander Yakushev	25
Vyacheslav Starshinov	27	Vladimir Shadrin	24
Viktor Polupanov	22	Vladimir Petrov	25
Vladimir Vikulov	21	Valeri Kharlamov	24
Boris Mayorov	29	Boris Mikhailov	27
Veniamin Alexandrov	30	Alexander Maltsev	23
Yuri Moiseyev	27	Vyacheslav Anisin	21
Yevgeni Mishakov	26	Vladimir Vikulov	26
Yevgeni Zimin	20	Yuri Blinov	23
Anatoly Ionov	28	Evgeny Zimin	25
		Yuri Lebedev	21
		Alexander Bodunov	21
		Evgeny Mishakov	31
		Alexander Volchkov	20
		Alexander Martynuk	26
		Vyacheslav Solodukhin	21
		Vyacheslav Starshinov	32

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It seems that there was yet another generational change between 1968 and 1972. A lot of the guys who were around for Firsov's peak were thrown out for 1972.

 

[DN28]

Good post, but I'm sure Tikhonov would have disagreed with that assessment.

Here's the 1968 Olympics roster next to the 1972 Summit roster. Anyone who played a game is in, even if it is just one. Sorted by position, and then by points. Red means they were 1968 holdovers. From 2 different sources so there will be occasional spelling differences. I caught a couple of Yevgeni/Evgeni, but something else might have slipped by.

1968 Olympic Team	Age	1972 Summit Team	Age
Goaltenders
Viktor Konovalenko	29	Vladislav Tretiak	20
Viktor Zinger	26
Defence
Viktor Blinov	22	Yuri Liapkin	27
Vitaly Davydov	28	Vladimir Lutchenko	23
Viktor Kuzkin	27	Valeri Vasiliev	23
Alexander Ragulin	26	Gennady Tsygankov	25
Oleg Zaytsev	28	Alexander Gusev	25
Igor Romishevsky	27	Viktor Kuzkin	32
		Alexander Ragulin	31
		Evgeny Paladiev	24
		Yuri Shatalov	27
Forwards
Anatoly Firsov	27	Alexander Yakushev	25
Vyacheslav Starshinov	27	Vladimir Shadrin	24
Viktor Polupanov	22	Vladimir Petrov	25
Vladimir Vikulov	21	Valeri Kharlamov	24
Boris Mayorov	29	Boris Mikhailov	27
Veniamin Alexandrov	30	Alexander Maltsev	23
Yuri Moiseyev	27	Vyacheslav Anisin	21
Yevgeni Mishakov	26	Vladimir Vikulov	26
Yevgeni Zimin	20	Yuri Blinov	23
Anatoly Ionov	28	Evgeny Zimin	25
		Yuri Lebedev	21
		Alexander Bodunov	21
		Evgeny Mishakov	31
		Alexander Volchkov	20
		Alexander Martynuk	26
		Vyacheslav Solodukhin	21
		Vyacheslav Starshinov	32

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It seems that there was yet another generational change between 1968 and 1972. A lot of the guys who were around for Firsov's peak were thrown out for 1972.

Yes, absolutely there was. In my previous post, I focused on generational change of the Soviets from late 50s to early 60s. There´s no denying that similar change occured in late 60s / early 70s, and then another generational change in late 70s / early 80s.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Nice job BoM.

Not a generational change as such but one caused by the IIHF harmonizing their rules to NHL rules starting in the fall of 1969.

This is the major sticking point with Firsov. Your table shows that a fair number of Firsov contemporaries - A. Yakushev, Kharlamov, Ragulin,amongst them transitioned to the harmonized rules while others including Firsov did not.

 

[seventieslord]

speaking about circumstantial evidence for Firsov, back in 2010 I met Morris Mott at an SIHR conference, and we talked a lot about his time with the team Canada amateurs of the late 60s who played against Firsov. And I asked him, would Firsov have starred in the NHL. He thought for a while, and then said, well I don't know if he would have starred, but he certainly could have played.

 

[DannyGallivan]

speaking about circumstantial evidence for Firsov, back in 2010 I met Morris Mott at an SIHR conference, and we talked a lot about his time with the team Canada amateurs of the late 60s who played against Firsov. And I asked him, would Firsov have starred in the NHL. He thought for a while, and then said, well I don't know if he would have starred, but he certainly could have played.

We would have to assume that he would have been a consistent first or second all-star team guy, consistent top ten scoring finishes or other substantial individual achievements in the NHL if he is to meet this list. Again, we have to make a lot of assumptions and go on the faith of circumstantial evidence for this. But, we do the same for pre-original six players as well. I'm fine with that... there are no wrong answers. I suspect that Firsov may garner the same amount of first place votes in this round as last place votes.

 

[MXD]

We would have to assume that he would have been a consistent first or second all-star team guy, consistent top ten scoring finishes or other substantial individual achievements in the NHL if he is to meet this list. Again, we have to make a lot of assumptions and go on the faith of circumstantial evidence for this. But, we do the same for pre-original six players as well. I'm fine with that... there are no wrong answers. I suspect that Firsov may garner the same amount of first place votes in this round as last place votes.

That requirement would mean he'd already be voted in, probably since a while, but I digress.