Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 15

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by quoipourquoi, Feb 17, 2019.

  1. quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    Procedure
    • You will be presented with 10+ players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list (10 players plus anyone with 99% of the voting points of the 10th ranked player)
    • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
    • You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
    • Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
    • The top-4 players will be added to The List in Vote 1, while the top-5 players will be added to The List in subsequent voting cycles (#1-4 in Vote 1, #5-9 in Vote 2, #10-14 in Vote 3, #15-19 in Vote 4, #20-24 in Vote 5, #25-29 in Vote 6, #30-34 in Vote 7, #35-39 in Vote 8, #40-44 in Vote 9, #45-49 in Vote 10, #50-54 in Vote 11, #55-59 in Vote 12, #60-64 in Vote 13, #65-69 in Vote 14, #70-74 in Vote 15, #75-79 in Vote 16, #80-84 in Vote 17, #85-89 in Vote 18, #90-94 in Vote 19, #95-99 in Vote 20)
    • A 100th player will be added to The List in Vote 21 from an expanded group of 15 candidates

    Eligible Voters
    • Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 120 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
    • Art of Sedinery, Batis, BenchBrawl, blogofmike, bobholly39, Canadiens1958, ChiTownPhilly, DannyGallivan, Dennis Bonvie, Dr John Carlson, ehhedler, Hockey Outsider, Iceman, ImporterExporter, Johnny Engine, JoseTheodore2002, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, Mike Farkas, MXD, pappyline, quoipourquoi, ResilientBeast, Sentinel, seventieslord, steve141, ted1971, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGeneral, The Macho Man, tony d, VanIslander

    Guidelines
    • Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
    • Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
    • Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
    • Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

    House Rules
    • Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
    • We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
    • Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
    • Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

    The actual voting period will open up on Friday, February 22nd at midnight and continue through Sunday, February 24th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, February 25th.


    Vote 15 Candidates
    • Anatoli Firsov
    • Bill Durnan
    • Brett Hull
    • Clint Benedict
    • Cy Denneny
    • Dit Clapper
    • Frank Mahovlich
    • Jari Kurri
    • Joe Malone
    • Turk Broda
     
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  2. wetcoast Registered User

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    Firsov before Fedorov?

    Glad to see Kurri and Brett Hull here at least to give some winger context.

    Same with Broda for Durnan.

    Should be a very interesting round.
     
  3. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Sigh. Seems we made a collective decision that we as a group were mostly right on our Round 1 lists, so limit the number of players. Anyway, the group made a decision so I'll try to make this my last post on the matter.

    First thought - yes to Firsov, no to every other goalie before Gardiner appears.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  4. ResilientBeast Resident PCHA Fanboy

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    Oops missed voting last time
     
  5. ChiTownPhilly Not Too Soft

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    Firsov+leftovers FTW!

    I would have had (un-nominated Goaltender) ahead of nine of the options this Round.

    I would have had (un-nominated Center) ahead of nine of the options this Round, as well.

    But-- I can't worry about that. I can only compare/contrast players to other nominated players. So... Malone & Benedict look good, in the relevant context.
    Hope you weren't high on Mahovlich and/or Malone. They missed advancement by one and three points, respectively(!)
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
  6. Captain Bowie Registered User

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    Give me the cole's notes on why Firsov should go first this round. I'm assuming that's where a handful will have him, considering the comments the last few rounds.

    I don't think Hull or Kurri look out of place in the still remaining crop of scoring forwards either. Broda I will need a little more information on to comfortably compare to Durnan and Benedict.
     
  7. Batis Registered User

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    Here is an upgraded version of my preliminary discussion post about Firsov.

    One player who in my opinion was very underrated during the Wingers project is Anatoly Firsov. During the Non-NHL Europeans project Firsov was finally ranked in the tier where he belongs as he placed in between Kharlamov and Tretiak. In my opinion there is no doubt that Firsov belongs in the same tier as Kharlamov no matter which one of them one prefers. In this post I will give a overview of Firsov and his achiviements. In the coming posts I will go more into detail on some specific parts of his game and his achiviements.

    Soviet player of the year voting:

    Here is Firsovs voting record.

    Anatoly Firsov
    67/68: 137/153 = 0.895
    68/69: 68/165 = 0.412
    69/70: 10/204 = 0.049
    70/71: 131/204 = 0.642
    71/72: 17/180 = 0.094
    3-year: 0.650
    5-year: 0.418
    7-year: 0.299

    Considering that the Soviet player of the year award first was awarded during Firsovs 26-year old season his voting record really is exceptionally strong. This post here below is actually about Starshinov but it really shows how Firsov dominated the Soviet player of the year voting in the years leading up to the Summit Series.

    This is how Firsov does when it comes to peak Soviet player of the year voting shares among forwards.

    It should also be pointed out that the Soviet player of the year award had not yet been created during what arguably was Firsovs strongest season in 66/67. Had the voting been conducted that season I find it likely that Firsov would have rivaled Makarov for having the strongest 3-year average.

    International scoring:

    Firsovs scoring in major and minor international tournaments is very impressive and along with Makarov, Kharlamov and perhaps Maltsev he definitely belongs to the first tier in that regard.. Here you can get a look at how Firsov compares to Soviet and Czechoslovakian players there.

    Regular season scoring:

    While Firsovs regular season scoring is rather impressive as well it is clearly not on the same very high level as his international scoring. In the Twenty Years of Soviet Hockey thread Sturminator calculated Firsovs 7-year Vs2 score from the 60/61-69/70 time frame to be 96.7. These numbers included the very stingy assist records from the 60's Soviet League which were not part of the official scoring race which was decided by goals only up until the 70/71 season.

    One of Firsovs 7 strongest Vs2 scores came during the 72/73 season though were he had a score of 80. So if we include that into the numbers above we can see that Firsovs overall Soviet League 7-year Vs2 is 98.1. When we take into account how stingely awarded the assists were in the Soviet League in the 60's and that Firsov was a clearly superior playmaker than his main threat in the scoring race (Starshinov) during the late 60's I think that we can fairly assume that Firsovs 7-year Vs2 probably would have at least been somewhere in the 100-105 range had assists been awarded more often.

    Ability to prevent the opponents from scoring:

    To add to what I wrote above I would say that the main reason for Firsovs low goals against numbers is that he could tilt the ice so much in his teams favour with a combination of his ability to keep puck possession for his team and his ability to steal the puck back when his team did not have possession of it. Before someone brings up that Firsov never proved that he could do this against the best the NHL had to offer let us remember that Firsov in these 11 available games on youtube was in on less goals against than the Kharlamov-Petrov-Mikhailov line was in on even if they only played in 4 out of those 11 games. And that line very much showed that they could more than hold their own against the best the NHL had to offer.

    Additionally I have worked on looking at Firsovs R ON/R OFF during the available footage and while that post is not quite ready yet I can already say that his results there are extraordinarily strong. Especially his importance to the Soviet team in the games against their two strongest opponents Czechoslovakia and Sweden. In the 6 available games against those two teams Firsov had an 6:1 ratio at even strenght while his team actually was outscored when Firsov not was on the ice with a 8:10 ratio at even strenght. It is also worth noting that 4 out of the 6 available games against Czechoslovakia and Sweden are from the 1969 and 1970 WHCs which means that the Kharlamov-Petrov-Mikhailov line stands for a big part of Firsovs R OFF in those games.

    Here is the beforementioned quote from VMBM which suggests that Firsov most likely had exceptional R ON/R OFF numbers even beyond the available footage.

    Penalty killing:

    Additionally Firsov was in my opinion one of the 10 best penalty killers among Soviet forwards. Here is the post about Firsov from the Soviet penalty killing study.

    If someone wants to get a even deeper look into Firsovs career and his style of play I would recommend this excellent bio from Theokritos Twenty years of Soviet Hockey: 1962 - 1982 (Index of player profiles in OP) as well as my video study of Firsov which is linked to in the first part of that bio.
     
    Last edited by moderator Theokritos: Feb 18, 2019
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  8. Batis Registered User

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    This post goes deeper into why Firsov in my opinion belongs in the same tier as Kharlamov. It contains a more extensive look at his SPOTY voting as well as estimates for how he roughly may have done in a hypothetical voting in his strongest pre-SPOTY seasons. Recently posted in the main thread.

     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
  9. Theokritos Global Moderator

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    Only 10 eligible players?
    :huh:
     
  10. blogofmike Registered User

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    I am one of the unconverted on Firsov. I will take time to digest the stuff from Batis above.

    Coming in, I think the larger issues that need to be addressed for Firsov are the quality of his competition and his shorter career.

    For example, in his big Olympics run in 1968, these are the rosters of the competitors: Ice hockey at the 1968 Winter Olympics – Rosters - Wikipedia
     
  11. zffssk On Break

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    I like Benedict and Broda as goalies from dynasties, but Gardiner should really be there at this point...

    Also disappointed in the lack of Bill Gadsby in particular, but also Eddie Gerard, Serge Savard, Borje Salming, Zdeno Chara... I'm not sure at all the tier of MacInnis-Seibert-Horton and so on were better than Gadsby.

    The fact that there is no center available beyond Malone is... questionable.

    Denneny and Kurri are interesting comparables: both wingers played on a dynasty with the best center in the game (albeit of diametrically opposed style), leading to some questioning whether they were a product of the center in question, at least to some extent.On gut feeling I'd give the edge to Kurri for his excellent defensive play, but will be interesting to follow this comparison.

    Hull and Denneny are also interesting comparables.

    Joe Malone starts as my #1 based on his relative importance in his era.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
  12. bobholly39 Registered User

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    Finally an interesting group. I must have been much higher on Broda, Hull and Kurri than most.

    I do admit i must have been much lower on Firsov than most in round 1, but looking forward to also considering him with an open mind based on all the talk and ask for him recently

    Honestly at this point i expect those guys to be my top 4 in some order.
     
  13. bobholly39 Registered User

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    The high level 'easy' case for Hull. A bit of tunnel vision in this post, but still:

    1. He has the best hart record of anyone here, by far.

    2. He won a hart against a 163 point Gretzky by a LOT. Only time in Gretzky's career scoring 150+ and not winning the hart. Maybe it wasn't exactly full peak Gretzky anymore, but it's the closest to peak Gretzky who ever lost a hart.

    3. He has one of the greatest peak seasons of all time. Arguably the greateat goal-scoring season of all time.

    4. Greatest goal-scorer not yet ranked. (by far? Can't think off hand who else is close)

    5. Very long, complete, and consistent career/prime. 8x top 10 goal scoring. To give a comparable, Selanne did so 6x and was just voted in (also had a much weaker playoff resume too).

    6. Most career playoff goals from any non-oilers dynasty. 4th all time for playoff goals, 7th for points. Not just a compiler either, 2 cups late in his career and many strong performances throughout, including of course the 99 cup winner.

    To be honest i don't understand why he wasn't made available quite a few rounds ago. His case to be at the top seems very easy to me.
     
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  14. Nick Hansen Registered User

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    Hull has a strong international record as well. If Selänne went last round, Hull should go this round.
     
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  15. sr edler whom

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    When his center was healthy he also outscored Hull by a 0.20 ratio which is 16 points in a full season.

    I can. And Hull was certainly not a better goal scorer than this player by far.
     
  16. bobholly39 Registered User

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    Id have Hull better than Bure personally though i admittedly didnt think of Bure with my post. Hull has a much more complete career in addition to being a better goal scorer (career, peak, prime - if maybe not "raw talent").

    Oates is a good player and he helped Hull but Hull was by no means a product of him as this post implies. A ton of players in their best years had help by linemates too - not sure how this is a negative especially as were ranking in the 70s here - were not exactly in the top 20 anymore.

    Im not even sure i want to penalize Kurri for his center anymore in the 70s....so Hull is almost certainly a no
     
  17. sr edler whom

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    I can buy if you think Brett Hull was a better goal scorer than Bure, although I don’t agree personally, it was the "by far" thing I found a bit exaggerating.

    Oates comment was about the Hart, not about anyone being a product. I don't think Hull was a product. He should be thankful Adam Graves hadn’t hit his prime yet though, regarding the Hart voting.
     
  18. bobholly39 Registered User

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    Yes Brett Hull was a better goal scorer than Bure though maybe not "by far". He's one name that didn't immediately pop into my head when making that post. To be fair his overall career resume is pretty lacking compared to most other top goal-scorers with full careers. I was more thinking of guys with more full career arcs. All of your typical tier 1 and tier 2 top goal-scorers of all times have gone in so far except for Hull - who has a pretty full career on top of it. Bure to me is in the 'half career' category of guys like Lindros/Forsberg who missed a ton of games/season for various reasons.

    Also - i admit i don't understand the Adam Graves reference...
     
  19. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    Hart trophy voting record

    Player1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th+Total
    Brett Hull12(1?)3 (4?)
    Bill Durnan1113
    Dit Clapper112
    Frank Mahovlich112
    Clint Benedict11
    Turk Broda11
    Cy Denneny0
    Jari Kurri0
    Joe Malone0
    Anatoli Firsov0
    I agree with bobbyholly that Hull has the best Hart record of anywhere here, especially when taking quality of competition into account. See post 23 for an explanation of the strange rules used during 1995 (hence the question mark).

    As far as I can tell, Kurri only got a single vote for the Hart during his career (a 2nd place vote in 1985). Was that because he didn't deserve it, or because he was in Gretzky's shadow? (I'd say it's the former, but the only thing that gives me pause is he didn't get any consideration during his first few post-Gretzky seasons, which were very strong).

    Firsov never played in the NHL, so was never eligible for the Hart trophy (Batis has a great post showing how well he fared in Soviet league MVP voting).

    As I indicated last time, Malone played virtually all of his career before the Hart trophy existed (except for his last season, where he only played in ten games). Both Denneny and Benedict played roughly half their careers during the Hart era - so I think it's fair to ask why they didn't do better in the voting.

    As for the inevitable WWII question - none of Broda or Clapper's finishes came during the talent vacuum. Durnan's 3rd place finish came during 1946, when the NHL hadn't yet returned to full strength (two Stewarts, Gaye and Jack, placed in the top five in voting, and never again sniffed the Hart in their careers).
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
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  20. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    VsX (1927-2018)

    Player 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 7YR 10YR
    Jari Kurri 100.0 100.0 93.4 92.9 83.9 73.4 73.3 72.1 64.2 58.8 88.1 81.2
    Brett Hull 113.9 94.0 87.6 82.3 80.8 79.1 78.2 75.2 73.1 71.4 88.0 83.6
    Frank Mahovlich 93.3 90.1 89.4 88.1 87.9 84.5 81.4 81.1 72.9 71.8 87.8 84.1
    Dit Clapper 98.4 78.7 78.0 69.8 65.1 63.6 62.5 59.1 59.1 55.6 73.7 69.0

    Kurri, Hull and Mahovlich are remarkably close by this metric. Hull definitely has the best peak season; Kurri really starts falling off towards the end; and Mahovlich is remarkably consistent. But overall, I don't think that regular season offense can be used to distinguish any of them.

    Lots of players aren't listed - we have three goalies, one player who never played in the NHL, and two who spent most of their careers before the consolidation of North American professional hockey (which is as far back as I've tracked this). seventieslord calculated the scores for Malone to be 98 over seven years (82 over ten years), and Denneny to be 96 over seven years (88 over ten years).
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
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  21. bobholly39 Registered User

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    More of a trivia question i suppose than anything of relevance but...

    In 1995 on Hockey-reference Brett Hull is listed as placing 6th in hart voting.
    When i looked up the results for that year - he has 0 votes, and only 5 players total had hart votes that year.

    Is he 6th - tied with every other player in the league to also have 0 votes?
    Or does he have a vote that somehow isn't showing?
    Or is it simply a mistake by Hockey-Reference to show him as 6th in Hart that year?
     
  22. VMBM Touch a mountain... m'kay?

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    Finally you-know-who.

    I reckon Firsov will get a good number of first-place votes but there'll also be some no votes for him.
     
  23. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    The NHL changed the voting procedure during 1995 (the first lockout year). I'm not sure how, but the awards voters selected three preliminary finalists from each conference (Linros, Jagr and Hasek from the East, and Coffey, Fleury and Hull from the West).

    For the final round of Hart, there were only 15 voters. They were only allowed to cast three votes for the pre-selected six players. Hull didn't get a single vote in the final round - so he finished with zero votes, but based on the first leg of voting, he was still officially a finalist.

    I didn't show that year in my chart (I use a 5% threshold), but perhaps I should have, since he did well in the first round of voting.

    Fortunately the NHL changed the rules back the next year so that they didn't have to deal with this bizarre rules again. (So to answer your question - yes, hockey-reference.com is correct in this case).
     
  24. Mike Farkas Grace Personified

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    Dear Firsov fans,

    Today is your long-awaited day. Поздравляю!

    Do you have any decent game film on Firsov that you would like to use to pump his tires and show off the competition that he faced? That would be most helpful to an eye test proponent such as myself.

    Da svidania.
     
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  25. Batis Registered User

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    My video study of Firsov is a place where you can find many highlights from the available footage of Firsov. The first part of the study focuses on the abilities which I believe made Firsov so good at preventing the opponents from scoring when he was on the ice and later on it gets into different parts of his offensive game.
    Anatoli Firsov- A video study

    If you want to watch full games of peak Firsov going up against strong opposition I would suggest the games against Czechoslovakia at the 1967 and 1969 WHCs. Both games are really entertaining.


     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019

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