Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 15

[Canadiens1958]

Sure but let us remember that Sterner during his AHL season put up similar numbers as Jean Ratelle did at the same age on the same team the year before.

Classic.

Comparing a healthy Ulf Sterner to between major back surgery Jean Ratelle.

Really bad.

 

[Batis]

Classic.

Comparing a healthy Ulf Sterner to between major back surgery Jean Ratelle.

Really bad.

I would say that what Sterner had to go through that season when it comes to adjustments probably was just as difficult as being between major back surgery. But we have been through these kind of discussions many times before and I don't feel like going down that rabbit hole with you again so I'll just say that it is what I believe and I am aware of that you don't agree.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

The One About the Ones Who Divide Opinion

Part I- Anatoli Firsov
1) In Firsov's Prime, it's easier to illustrate his superiority over his European contemporaries than show the superiority of Kharlamov over his European contemporaries, no?
2) This is mitigated by the impression that...
a) that field is easier to lead than the field headed by Kharlamov, and
b) we have those direct eye-test comparisons of Kharlamov against North Americans.
Those factors suggest some caution in rating Firsov-- but I'd say the appropriate caution has been applied by the fact that he's been nominated so much later than Kharlamov and even Tretiak here. We're also being presented with evidence that he played with significant defensive conscience as well- a statement that cannot be made about everyone currently being discussed here.

I'm not likely to have Firsov leading my ballot this Round. Still, I think there are more inferior options to him than superior ones.

Part II- Brett Hull
I'd already known about Brett Hull's mostly laudable showings in The Playoffs. I've also known, and discussed, his three-year goal-scoring peak. What has come more into focus for me is the evidence that the nature of the goals he scored presents some evidence pointing to "clutch-factor."

Yes. It's evidence. But is it ironclad evidence? You see, in order to be certain that Br. Hull's even-strength goals-for more than counterbalance his significant red-ink on even-strength goals-against, you'd have to review those goals with the same level of scrutiny that you'd apply to the goals he potted. It's more likely than not that more of his goals carried some extra timeliness impact-- but wouldn't it have been great if he could have simply avoided suppurating even-strength goals-against and help steer us away from all such speculation?!

The whole matter smacks of selective application of effort. In fairness to Brett Hull, I'm not going to make that big a deal out of it, if that's what it was. It is [soapbox time here] an effect of the modern-day NHL-schedule, with possibly The Most Meaningless Regular Season In Sports... so I can forgive a bit of shepherding re: energy-management.

I recognize and acknowledge Brett Hull's summit-like 3-year goal-scoring peak. I also know that he's a Howitzer-Grade weapon on the Power Play- a benefit that we won't find in the plus/minus statistics. I also realize his generally positive impact in The Playoffs. It is because I'm aware of all of these things that Brett Hull eked out survival on my Prelim List- enduring cuts that collected (among others) at least a quartet of players, yet to be brought up for discussion (though known to be on the Prelim Lists of other Panelists), whose excellence in The Playoffs is better-documented than Brett Hull's.

 

[sr edler]

But the point remains, Neely only had one burst at a Hull-like level of scoring. Hull's ability to produce at those levels was sustained for a number of years, and it makes him unique among remaining candidates as far as goal scoring goes. I mean, Jari Kurri is known as a goal scorer above anything else, and he played in a situation/era even more conducive to goal scoring than Hull did, and even he "only" averaged about 60 per season during his four-year peak.

I think the question becomes, was Kurri's better all-around game enough to elevate him above Hull? And was Malone's importance to his era enough of a consideration to boost him above as well? Was Denneny too much a product of great players around him? Because even these great goal scorers weren't scoring them at the same rate as Hull during his prime. And in the case of Kurri and Denneny, it's hard to argue that they weren't in as good a position to rack up goals as they possibly could have been.

My point remains that Hull during his peak didn't compete with goal scoring specialist threats of a particular calibre (Mogilny, Bure, Selänne, Neely, etc.), but balanced well-rounded players equally concerned with playmaking (Yzerman) or Kevin Stevens who was very good but not a French cuisine entrecôte with fresh garlic and old money wine. Yes, Neely didn't last more than a half season, but Hull's 86 goal season was also a one-year thing, and Neely's not on my list in the first place. And it wasn't like Neely even lost his magic touch. He got injured.

I prefer Kurri before Hull, because he could play winger/center and was very clever/versatile, but I think Hull stands up pretty well against Denneny/Malone type of players.

 

[DN28]

Not quite what we had in mind. Will illustrate what we want.

You stated:

– 9 points in 8 games at OG 64, outside top 10 in scoring (7th in scoring in his own team???), no award recognition.

What we want to know,is basic, who were the players, at least 10, who outscored Firsov and their point totals. Repeat for the WHCs and other OGs, listing the 2nd-5th if Firsov led.

That Firsov first played on the National team at 22 is interesting.

I´ll just post scoring tables which hockeyarchives.com has in store.

OG 1964
1. Sven "Tumba" Johansson SUE 8 goals 3 assists 11 points
2. Ulf Sterner SUE 6 5 11
3. Viktor Yakushev URS 7 3 10
Boris Maïorov URS 7 3 10
Jirí Dolana TCH 7 3 10
Vyacheslav Starshinov URS 7 3 10
7 Josef Cerný TCH 5 5 10
8. Anders Andersson SUE 7 2 9
9. Konstantin Loktev URS 4 5 9
10. Gary Dineen CAN 3 6 9

WHC 1965
1. Jozef Golonka TCH 6 goals 8 assists 14 points
2. Jaroslav Jirík TCH 8 4 12
3. Aleksandr Almetov URS 7 5 12
4. Konstantin Loktev URS 7 4 11
5. Gary Dineen CAN 6 5 11
6. Turd Lundström SUE 6 3 9
7. Anatoli Firsov URS 5 4 9
8. Venyamin Aleksandrov URS 4 5 9
9. Vyacheslav Starshinov URS 6 2 8
10. Boris Maïorov URS 5 3 8
Bob Forhan CAN 5 3 8
Nils Nilsson SUE 5 3 8
Ronald Pettersson SUE 5 3 8

WHC 1966
1. Venyamin Aleksandrov URS 9 goals 8 assists 17 points
2. Aleksandr Almetov URS 5 8 13
3. Vyacheslav Starshinov URS 11 1 12
4. Viktor Yakushev URS 5 6 11
5. Stanislav Prýl TCH 6 4 10
6. Konstantin Loktev URS 5 4 9
7. George Faulkner CAN 6 2 8
8. Francis Huck CAN 4 4 8
9. Václav Nedomanský TCH 5 2 7
10. Lars-Göran Nilsson SUE 4 3 7

WHC 1967
1. Anatoli Firsov URS 11 goals 11 assists 22 points
2. Viktor Polupanov URS 11 8 19
3. Aleksandr Almetov URS 8 7 15
4. Venyamin Aleksandrov URS 7 7 14
5. Vladimir Vikulov URS 6 6 12
6. Fran Huck CAN 5 6 11
7. Josef Golonka TCH 4 7 11
8. Jan Havel TCH 6 3 9
9. Jaroslav Holík TCH 2 7 9
10. Jaroslav Jirík TCH 5 3 8

OG 1968
1. Anatoli Firsov URS 12 goals 4 assists 16 points
2. Vyacheslav Starshinov URS 6 6 12
3. Viktor Polupanov URS 6 6 12
4. Vladimir Vikulov URS 2 10 12
5. Jozef Golonka TCH 4 6 10
6. Jan Hrbatý TCH 2 7 9
7. Francis Huck CAN 4 5 9
8. Marshall Johnston CAN 2 6 8
9. Jack Morrison USA 2 6 8
10. Václav Nedomanský TCH 5 2 7

WHC 1969
1. Anatoli Firsov URS 10 goals 4 assists 14 points
2. Boris Mikhaïlov URS 9 5 14
3. Ulf Sterner SUE 5 9 14
4. Jaroslav Holík TCH 4 10 14
5. Valeri Kharlamov URS 6 7 13
6. Stig-Göran Johansson SUE 6 6 12
7. Václav Nedomanský TCH 9 2 11
8. Lars-Göran Nilsson SUE 6 5 11
9. Aleksandr Maltsev URS 5 6 11
10. Jan Suchý TCH 5 4 9

WHC 1970
1. Aleksandr Maltsev URS 15 goals 6 assists 21 points
2. Václav Nedomanský TCH 10 7 17
3. Anatoli Firsov URS 6 10 16
4. Jan Suchý TCH 8 7 15
5. Vladimir Vikulov URS 9 5 14
6. Stefan Karlsson SUE 6 5 11
7. Boris Mikhaïlov URS 7 3 10
Valeri Kharlamov URS 7 3 10
9. Tord Lundström SUE 5 5 10
Vyacheslav Starshinov URS 5 5 10
Lars-Göran Nilsson SUE 5 5 10

WHC 1971
1. Anatoli Firsov URS 11 goals 8 assists 19 points
2. Valeri Kharlamov URS 5 12 17
3. Aleksandr Maltsev URS 10 6 16
4. Vladimir Petrov URS 8 3 11
5 Boris Mikhaïlov URS 7 3 10
Gary Gambucci USA 7 3 10
7. Vladimir Vikulov URS 6 4 10
Tord Lundström SUE 6 4 10
9. Richard Farda TCH 4 5 9
Vyacheslav Starshinov URS 4 5 9

OG 1972
1. Valeri Kharlamov URS 9 goals 6 assists 15 points
2. Václav Nedomanský TCH 6 3 9
3. Vladimir Vikulov URS 5 4 9
4. Craig Sarner USA 4 5 9
5. Kevin Ahearn USA 4 3 7
Aleksandr Maltsev URS 4 3 7
7. Anatoli Firsov URS 2 5 7
8. Yuri Blinov URS 3 3 6
Jirí Kochta TCH 3 3 6
10. Richard Farda TCH 1 5 6

Spoty voting appears to really favour the small sample WC and OG play over domestic league play.

70-71 seems to be the prime example here 1st in spoty voting yet 5th on his own team in scoring and 16th in the league.

Doesn't make the all star team either.

The Spoty and the Hart appear to be measuring somewhat different things.

Also how he fared in that poll, when he was at his peak really muddles the issue even further

FINAL STANDING

1.Jan Suchý (Czechoslovakia) 47 pts
2.Ulf Sterner (Sweden) 24
3.Anatoli Firsov (Soviet Union) 9
4.Lill Strimma Svedberg (Sweden) 8
4.Honken Holmqvist (Sweden) 8
6.Jaroslav Holik (Czechoslovakia) 6
7.Jiri Holik (Czechoslovakia) 5
8.Vladimir Dzurilla (Czechoslovakia) 4
8.Jaroslav Jirik (Czechoslovakia) 4
10.Vaclav Nedomanský (Czechoslovakia) 3
10.Valeri Kharlamov (Soviet Union) 3
12.Josef Horesovský (Czechoslovakia) 2
12. Ab DeMarco (Canada) 2
14.Nisse Nilsson (Sweden) 1

Not exactly a list of top 100 players of all time, although a couple might make the top 200 or maybe not.

I know Kharlamov does but he was still emerging into what he would become at the time of the poll.

#2 on that list Ulf Sterner does have some playing time against AHL player when he was 23 and later in his career in London with some other North American players.

I highly doubt that the Soviet voters weren´t rewarding outstanding play in the domestic league. We don´t know exactly how much percent on average of SPOTY voting was influenced by international play and by domestic play. But I can´t imagine that it wasn´t at least 50 % of influence by play displayed at the league level.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I´ll just post scoring tables which hockeyarchives.com has in store.

OG 1964
1. Sven "Tumba" Johansson SUE 8 goals 3 assists 11 points
2. Ulf Sterner SUE 6 5 11
3. Viktor Yakushev URS 7 3 10
Boris Maïorov URS 7 3 10
Jirí Dolana TCH 7 3 10
Vyacheslav Starshinov URS 7 3 10
7 Josef Cerný TCH 5 5 10
8. Anders Andersson SUE 7 2 9
9. Konstantin Loktev URS 4 5 9
10. Gary Dineen CAN 3 6 9

WHC 1965
1. Jozef Golonka TCH 6 goals 8 assists 14 points
2. Jaroslav Jirík TCH 8 4 12
3. Aleksandr Almetov URS 7 5 12
4. Konstantin Loktev URS 7 4 11
5. Gary Dineen CAN 6 5 11
6. Turd Lundström SUE 6 3 9
7. Anatoli Firsov URS 5 4 9
8. Venyamin Aleksandrov URS 4 5 9
9. Vyacheslav Starshinov URS 6 2 8
10. Boris Maïorov URS 5 3 8
Bob Forhan CAN 5 3 8
Nils Nilsson SUE 5 3 8
Ronald Pettersson SUE 5 3 8

WHC 1966
1. Venyamin Aleksandrov URS 9 goals 8 assists 17 points
2. Aleksandr Almetov URS 5 8 13
3. Vyacheslav Starshinov URS 11 1 12
4. Viktor Yakushev URS 5 6 11
5. Stanislav Prýl TCH 6 4 10
6. Konstantin Loktev URS 5 4 9
7. George Faulkner CAN 6 2 8
8. Francis Huck CAN 4 4 8
9. Václav Nedomanský TCH 5 2 7
10. Lars-Göran Nilsson SUE 4 3 7

WHC 1967
1. Anatoli Firsov URS 11 goals 11 assists 22 points
2. Viktor Polupanov URS 11 8 19
3. Aleksandr Almetov URS 8 7 15
4. Venyamin Aleksandrov URS 7 7 14
5. Vladimir Vikulov URS 6 6 12
6. Fran Huck CAN 5 6 11
7. Josef Golonka TCH 4 7 11
8. Jan Havel TCH 6 3 9
9. Jaroslav Holík TCH 2 7 9
10. Jaroslav Jirík TCH 5 3 8

OG 1968
1. Anatoli Firsov URS 12 goals 4 assists 16 points
2. Vyacheslav Starshinov URS 6 6 12
3. Viktor Polupanov URS 6 6 12
4. Vladimir Vikulov URS 2 10 12
5. Jozef Golonka TCH 4 6 10
6. Jan Hrbatý TCH 2 7 9
7. Francis Huck CAN 4 5 9
8. Marshall Johnston CAN 2 6 8
9. Jack Morrison USA 2 6 8
10. Václav Nedomanský TCH 5 2 7

WHC 1969
1. Anatoli Firsov URS 10 goals 4 assists 14 points
2. Boris Mikhaïlov URS 9 5 14
3. Ulf Sterner SUE 5 9 14
4. Jaroslav Holík TCH 4 10 14
5. Valeri Kharlamov URS 6 7 13
6. Stig-Göran Johansson SUE 6 6 12
7. Václav Nedomanský TCH 9 2 11
8. Lars-Göran Nilsson SUE 6 5 11
9. Aleksandr Maltsev URS 5 6 11
10. Jan Suchý TCH 5 4 9

WHC 1970
1. Aleksandr Maltsev URS 15 goals 6 assists 21 points
2. Václav Nedomanský TCH 10 7 17
3. Anatoli Firsov URS 6 10 16
4. Jan Suchý TCH 8 7 15
5. Vladimir Vikulov URS 9 5 14
6. Stefan Karlsson SUE 6 5 11
7. Boris Mikhaïlov URS 7 3 10
Valeri Kharlamov URS 7 3 10
9. Tord Lundström SUE 5 5 10
Vyacheslav Starshinov URS 5 5 10
Lars-Göran Nilsson SUE 5 5 10

WHC 1971
1. Anatoli Firsov URS 11 goals 8 assists 19 points
2. Valeri Kharlamov URS 5 12 17
3. Aleksandr Maltsev URS 10 6 16
4. Vladimir Petrov URS 8 3 11
5 Boris Mikhaïlov URS 7 3 10
Gary Gambucci USA 7 3 10
7. Vladimir Vikulov URS 6 4 10
Tord Lundström SUE 6 4 10
9. Richard Farda TCH 4 5 9
Vyacheslav Starshinov URS 4 5 9

OG 1972
1. Valeri Kharlamov URS 9 goals 6 assists 15 points
2. Václav Nedomanský TCH 6 3 9
3. Vladimir Vikulov URS 5 4 9
4. Craig Sarner USA 4 5 9
5. Kevin Ahearn USA 4 3 7
Aleksandr Maltsev URS 4 3 7
7. Anatoli Firsov URS 2 5 7
8. Yuri Blinov URS 3 3 6
Jirí Kochta TCH 3 3 6
10. Richard Farda TCH 1 5 6



I highly doubt that the Soviet voters weren´t rewarding outstanding play in the domestic league. We don´t know exactly how much percent on average of SPOTY voting was influenced by international play and by domestic play. But I can´t imagine that it wasn´t at least 50 % of influence by play displayed at the league level.

Excellent. Thank you.

Not much separation between Firsov and Nedomansky,going back and forth in scoring. Tied with defensive oriented Jiri Holik at 14 points

1964 OGs results, mid 30s Sven Tumba and 23 year old dominate Firsov.

1965 WHC Firsov is 1 point better than Bob Forhan of Canada.

Really nothing to get excited about given International Hockey was predicated on goal differential as a tie-breaker.

Far from Top 100 given the level of competition beyond the Czechs and Swedes.

 

[wetcoast]

Sure but let us remember that Sterner during his AHL season put up similar numbers as Jean Ratelle did at the same age on the same team the year before.

Fair enough but Ratelle was 2nd in team scoring in his year, Sterner was 6th.

Ratelle that year , while being a month older also played in Baltimore and had a 8-9-4-13 line.

Ratelle also had a 15-07-7 line in the NHL while Sterner was 4-0-0-0.

Ratelle also has a really weird career arc for a forward, his peak and prime years are basically his career at 30 and afterward and perhaps if we went deeper than 100 his name might come up but I doubt that it will.

I guess the point of the matter is that besides Ratelle there isn't really any other noteworthy players who played with Sterner in either his age 23 North American play or his age 32 play with the London Lions.

Firsov was in his peak when that poll was taken as well.

It's just more food for thought on the competition level that Firsov competed against.

 

[wetcoast]

You raise a fair point in your first paragraph. Hull's trump card is being the best remaining goal scorer; a crucial skill, but not the only crucial skill. A redeeming point in his favour is that he did become a more well-rounded player late in his career. You'd expect this type of player to just be a PP specialist by his late 30's, but Hull was surprisingly productive at ES right until the end. Albeit, in a situation where he could be deployed favourably on a deep Detroit roster.

I also think that if say a player like Dickie Moore had something like even 5 less goals and assists in his 3 peak years, he definitely would have been hurt more than Hull.

Hull even if we take away 10 goals a year in his peak still leads the NHL in goals those 3 years and has a pretty decent playoff and international resume as well for a player at this stage of the project.

But Hull did those things and was a sniper, it's better to judge what he did than to speculate on something.

 

[seventieslord]

I also think that if say a player like Dickie Moore had something like even 5 less goals and assists in his 3 peak years, he definitely would have been hurt more than Hull.

Hull even if we take away 10 goals a year in his peak still leads the NHL in goals those 3 years and has a pretty decent playoff and international resume as well for a player at this stage of the project.

But Hull did those things and was a sniper, it's better to judge what he did than to speculate on something.

I think you missed the point that Kyle was making, which was don't get too excited about high goal totals when it's just one of many things a player is responsible for on the ice.

 

[wetcoast]

I think you missed the point that Kyle was making, which was don't get too excited about high goal totals when it's just one of many things a player is responsible for on the ice.

I actually was trying to add onto what Kyle had said and was more in response to what MXD had said.

Takes another drink, which isn't my first of the night and probably contributed to my sloppy response.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I was acknowledging MXD's point about not over-crediting one aspect of offense while another aspect may be lacking. Hull scored goals at a rate that is difficult to ignore, which is why I am a little more favourable to him at this stage than the group as a whole seems to be. But it's a valid point that I may be overlooking an equally great player who had less goals and more assists just because their stat line doesn't have as much "shock value" in any particular category.

After some reflection, I think I will have Malone and Mahovlich ahead of Hull, as I did coming in to the discussion. Not convinced on Kurri or Denneny as of yet.

I've come away from all the Firsov discussion convinced that he belongs with this group of candidates, but I believe I did overrate him on my initial list. I had him ahead of Kharlamov, but I think I'd reverse them now. I'm not bothered by the fact that he didn't prove himself against NHL competition. He was close enough with the Soviet stars of the next generation to suspect that he was probably their equal or close enough to it. If the Summit Series demarcation line is equated to the 1926 consolidation in North America and Kharlamov is the Soviet Howie Morenz, Firsov is at least the Soviet Joe Malone. Perhaps appropriate that they are in this group together.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Guy Lafleur did not adjust to aging. Firsov had a double whammy. Not playing against NHLers and aging.

Three packs a day will do that to even the greatest athletes. And a balding, older Lafleur still had some moments of magic...

 

[MXD]

Voted. I could've ended up with a most ridiculous ballot (Goalies, Firsov, Wingers and Clapper) but decided against "promoting" Durnan and Broda ahead of Firsov. I might not have had such scrupules had Gardiner been available.