Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 15

[Johnny Engine]

Huh?

In your opinion the hasn't been a more powerplay reliant player than Crosby in this project until now? Based on what?

He's certainly one of the top-3 most power-play dependent players to play for the Penguins since the lockout to make our list.

 

[MXD]

...Yeah, the PP-dependant thing is about the closest thing to a completely unnecessary self-inflicted credibility wound we've seen so far in this project. It's not too late to delete it.

It's sad, because the reminder of the post is... well, I don't necessarily agree with it, but it's instructive.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Huh?

In your opinion the hasn't been a more powerplay reliant player than Crosby in this project until now? Based on what?

I didn't say that.

I did say that Br. Hull is more Power-Play dependent (or reliant, if you prefer) for his offensive stats than Crosby- who's already pretty high in that category among the company that he's keeping on this list.

Now, I've read and respected your contributions enough to believe that the mischaracterization of my position wasn't willful... but really-- this whole thing works better when we don't put words in each others' mouths.

Ultimately, I really don't even need to focus on the Power Play stuff to have ample justification for placing Brett Hull in the Red-Lantern position here.

 

[MXD]

I didn't say that.

I did say that Br. Hull is more Power-Play dependent (or reliant, if you prefer) for his offensive stats than Crosby- who's already pretty high in that category among the company that he's keeping on this list.

Now, I've read and respected your contributions enough to believe that the mischaracterization of my position wasn't willful... but really-- this whole thing works better when we don't put words in each others' mouths.

Ultimately, I really don't even need to focus on the Power Play stuff to have ample justification for placing Brett Hull in the Red-Lantern position here.

... The issue with this is the comparison works obviously much better with players other than Crosby, so why single this one out?

 

[seventieslord]

I didn't say that.

I did say that Br. Hull is more Power-Play dependent (or reliant, if you prefer) for his offensive stats than Crosby- who's already pretty high in that category among the company that he's keeping on this list.

Now, I've read and respected your contributions enough to believe that the mischaracterization of my position wasn't willful... but really-- this whole thing works better when we don't put words in each others' mouths.

Ultimately, I really don't even need to focus on the Power Play stuff to have ample justification for placing Brett Hull in the Red-Lantern position here.

So what did you mean then?

 

[BenchBrawl]

Brett Hull, for all his faults, must be given credit for successfully integrating championship teams coached by notoriously defensive and demanding coaches like Ken Hitchcock and Scotty Bowman at the tail end of his career.

If this never happened from lack of opportunity, no one would believe he could have done it, and anyone arguing for it would be laughed out of the thread.Brett Hull and Ken Hitchcock or Scotty Bowman doesn't exactly sound like a match made in heaven.

I'm not saying he should make it now, but that's a huge point in his favor.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Former Dallas coach Ken Hitchcock, now behind the bench in Columbus, recalled the summer of 1998, when the Stars signed Hull. Within the first hour of the signing, Hitchcock said, he received 10 phone calls, most wishing him luck with getting along with the vocal, strong-willed Hull.

"When I first met him, I was kind of intimidated," Hitchcock said. "He had the reputation of being a really strong person in the dressing room. And then after a while, I found I could really learn a lot from this guy, the way he thought the game."

It was Hitchcock, lauded even now by Hull as one of the greatest coaches for whom he played, who tapped into an inner reserve of determination in the sometimes prickly winger. By the time Hull landed in Dallas, he had a reputation as a one-dimensional player whose value to the team was limited to a single element -- scoring goals. In 1992-93 and 1993-94 in St. Louis, for instance, Hull scored 111 goals and was a combined minus-30.

"I was never held accountable defensively in my whole life, which is why I never did it," Hull said.
In Dallas, people didn't think he could do anything different. Or would. He proved them wrong. "That's what I'm most proud of," he said. "Just being able to shut people up."

It wasn't easy.

Hitchcock recalled ultimately coming to an agreement with Hull about how they were going to co-exist. Hitchcock, an exacting man when it came to preparation, agreed to cut Hull some slack, demanding he give the coach 30 good minutes of practice if Hull guaranteed he'd become the player Hitchcock wanted him to be on game nights.

"I said, 'Let's have a negotiation,'" Hitchcock said. "I said, 'I'll show you the respect you want if you show me the respect I need.' That's when he bought in."

In time, the agreement paid dividends in the form of the team's first Stanley Cup in 1999. Hull scored what will be remembered as "the toe goal" at the edge of Dominik Hasek's crease as the Stars defeated the Buffalo Sabres in the sixth game of the Cup finals.

But the agreement did have its moments of peril. Hitchcock recalled the Stars' losing a sloppy game to Los Angeles, 8-5. The next day, he railed at the players in practice about how it didn't matter how many goals anyone scored if they couldn't stop the other team from scoring. In all of the Stars' drills, Hull would skate in on goal, then dump the puck into the corner.

"Every drill," Hitchcock recalled with a laugh. "I got really mad and threw him off the ice. And then, I chased him around the locker room. He was laughing the whole time. He told me he had to go golfing."

One day, Hitchcock gave Hull the day off from practice. Later, the coach and players looked up at GM Bob Gainey's corner office, and there was Hull sitting with his feet up on Gainey's desk watching the rest of the squad go through the drills. Still, there were many moments that revealed the passion Hull had for his craft.

When he wasn't scoring -- and that wasn't often -- it wasn't uncommon for Hull to stay on the ice at practice and fire 200 one-time slap shots into the net. Virtually all would find their way to the back of the net, the coach said, still marveling as he remembered the sight.

Surprisingly, perhaps, Hitchcock also said Hull was the best passer on the team. He often would team up with a young player in drills, and his hard passes sometimes would knock the youngsters' sticks out of their hands.

"He'd be there, snickering in the back of the line because there's this poor kid chasing his stick down the ice," Hitchcock said.

The year the Stars won the Cup, Hitchcock said that Hull elevated his game against his former team the Blues in a series that saw four of the six games go to overtime. "I've never seen such desperate hockey," Hitchcock said.

After the Stars had squeezed past Colorado in a seven-game thriller in the Western Conference finals, Hull ended up playing most of the Cup finals against Buffalo with a third-degree MCL tear. Hitchcock wondered how Hull was going to be able to get home from the rink after practice, let alone how he was going to play in games.

At one point in Game 6, team doctors told Hitchcock that Hull wasn't going to play. A few shifts later, he was back on the ice, and he later scored the winner, toe in the crease or not. Hull would win a second Stanley Cup in Detroit near the end of his career, when he played a surprisingly well-rounded role for the talented Red Wings under coach Scotty Bowman.
GM Ken Holland acknowledged that he wasn't sure how Hull would fit in with the veteran team back in 2002, but he did.

"No. 1, Brett was an awesome guy. No. 2, he was great defensively," said Holland, who recalled that one of the first things Bowman did was install Hull on the Wings' penalty-killing unit. "Scotty's way of coaching was to challenge somebody, and Brett loves challenges. Brett was everything we could have asked for."

Burnside: Brett Hull to join father in Hockey Hall of Fame

 

[DannyGallivan]

No-one is denying that the NHL is the standard. When I say proving yourself against the NHL is sufficient, then I also use the NHL as the standard. But that doesn't necessarily mean you have to prove yourself in the NHL.

Level of competition (on a consistent and even long term basis) is a must-have if you want to avoid too much conjecture.

 

[overg]

Brett Hull, for all his faults, must be given credit for successfully integrating championship teams coached by notoriously defensive and demanding coaches like Ken Hitchcock and Scotty Bowman at the tail end of his career.

If this never happened from lack of opportunity, no one would believe he could have done it, and anyone arguing for it would be laughed out of the thread.Brett Hull and Ken Hitchcock or Scotty Bowman doesn't exactly sound like a match made in heaven.

I'm not saying he should make it now, but that's a huge point in his favor.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Hull also do okay under Keenan? I know Gretzky wasn't a big fan, and maybe Hull chaffed under him, but my (going completely by 20 year old memories) recollection was that the predicted Hull/Kennan fireworks never really materialized.

 

[Theokritos]

Level of competition (on a consistent and even long term basis) is a must-have if you want to avoid too much conjecture.

Is Valery Kharlamov proven enough for you? If yes then you agree with me that a player doesn't necessarily have to prove himself in the NHL.

 

[blogofmike]

WORTHY:
Anatoli Firsov
If you like big, spiky peaks, consider that 1965-66 through 1967-68 span. If you like clutch, consider that he was platinum-plus in International Play. If you knock his lack of longevity, I'd better not see you at our Charlie Conacher or Dickie Moore appreciation parties.

...

you are not worthy
Brett Hull
Brett Hull? Really?! He barely survived my late cuts to just squeak onto my 120-list- due to HIS spiky peak in St Louis. I also now get to talk about someone even more Power-Play dependent than Crosby. Oh, goody. When does his plus/minus start looking good? In his mid-to-late 30s when he lands in clover in Dallas and Detroit, playing for teams that were averaging 110 standings-points a year. If one could "team-adjust" that plus-minus, I'm sure it wouldn't look so fine.

All right, he's an upper-half Hall-of-Famer. But I've got three dozen un-nominated guys ahead of this overrated uni-dimensional wonder. Surely last places and NRs will follow him the rest of his days [on my ballot, at least], until such time as we nominate someone who isn't even on my Prelim List.

If you like big spiky peaks, consider that Brett Hull was a Hart finalist from 1989-90 through 1991-92, and won the Hart in 1991 with an 86-goal, 131-point campaign. When you can lead the league in goal-scoring on your ES goals alone, you aren't dependent on the PP.

If you like clutch, consider Hull's strong playoff record, where his 1999 OT Cup winner is just one of an NHL record 24 playoff game winners. He led the 2000 playoffs in scoring. He had productive playoff years on different teams in different situations. His international record is pretty strong too. Hull's play in 1991 was a crucial part of Team USA levelling up in the Canada Cup, and he came up big when it counted in the 1996 World Cup which he led in goals and points. Given the quality of the competition he faced, I'd rank those two performances above Firsov's best international performances.

And Brett Hull has some pretty good longevity too...

Brett Hull is going high on my ballot.

 

[Batis]

Never mind Marshall Johnston do you think that Firsov is a better player than the Big M who is up this round?

Or Kurri or Brett Hull?

Fedorov, Bure, Oates, Thorton, Norm Ullman, Dave Keon, Perreault, Peter Stastny....there are probably 20 more forwards I could list as well.

Yes I rank Firsov clearly ahead of every player you brought up in this post. In my opinion there is no player left on the board who could tilt the ice in his teams favour in the way that Firsov could do.

Firsov is also definitely one of the most unselfish superstar forwards of all time. This is probably also the reason for that Firsov most of the time seemed to be able to help the players he played with to perform at their all time high level. Some examples of this is.

- Kharlamov achivied the highest SPOTY voting share of his career when being centered by Firsov in 71/72 and had arguably his most impressive international tournament at the 1972 Olympics being centered by Firsov as well.

- When playing on a line with Firsov on the international stage Victor Yakushev had his two strongest seasons (63/64 and 64/65) where he made the Soviet All-Star team both times and also made the All-Star team at the 1964 Olympics.

- His longtime linemates Vikulov and Polupanov both had their peaks early on in their careers (very early on in the case of Polupanov) when playing with Firsov. That Polupanov had a very early peak is of course not that strange due to his off ice issues but still it very much seems as if Firsov brought out the best of his two younger linemates.

Here are some quotes on Firsov the team player which shows his commitment to his teammates and perhaps can help explain how he often managed to bring out the best in the players he played with.

Anatoly Tarasov (1971):
"He never leaves a partner in trouble, he always comes to his rescue and always works for him. In order to make life easier for his partners, Firsov puts himself second."

Anatoly Tarasov (1968): On 1964-1965.
"On the second line [of CSKA] there were Leonid Volkov, Valentin Senyushkin and Anatoly Firsov. It's no secret that Firsov was individually the strongest player on that line. But the manner of Firsov's game is such that he never asks others to serve him. He gladly plays towards his comrades."

Valery Kharlamov (1979):
"Anatoly Firsov set records not only with the results he achieved but also with how devoted he was to the interests of his comrades."

Boris Mikhaylov (2008):
"This great master was demanding to himself and selfless towards his linemates in the game."

Valery Kharlamov (1979):
"In Switzerland at the 1971 World Championship, Anatoly once went out to play with a temperature of about 39° C [102.2 °F] when his presence on the ice was needed. He told the doctor that he was exactly at 37° C [98.6 ° F] and that he felt fine again. It was a difficult match and Firsov's game and example could spur his comrades. (...) I think that Anatoly, an experienced athlete, understood that he was hurting himself and that the game could come back to haunt him, but he also knew that the team on the ice needed him."
​

​

Anatoly Tarasov (1968):
"I have no doubt that Anatoly Firsov could have been the best forward of the tournament at Ljubljana. But he thought about his comrades first and did everything in his influence to make their debute a success."

Anatoly Tarasov (1971):
"Firsov played worse than usual in Ljubljana, but only because he put his focus on helping the youngsters."
​

​

Later, when we put seventeen year old Vladimir Vikulov and Victor Polupanov on his line, Firsov's influence on them was so great that the young line managed to become the top line, first at CSKA, and then on the national team.
Anatoli was, of course, the leader, but in the process, Vikulov developed many subtle tactics, and Polupanov progressed as a goal scorer. Whoever had the benefit of playing with Firsov began to shine as never before.

 

[wetcoast]

If you like big spiky peaks, consider that Brett Hull was a Hart finalist from 1989-90 through 1991-92, and won the Hart in 1991 with an 86-goal, 131-point campaign. When you can lead the league in goal-scoring on your ES goals alone, you aren't dependent on the PP.

If you like clutch, consider Hull's strong playoff record, where his 1999 OT Cup winner is just one of an NHL record 24 playoff game winners. He led the 2000 playoffs in scoring. He had productive playoff years on different teams in different situations. His international record is pretty strong too. Hull's play in 1991 was a crucial part of Team USA levelling up in the Canada Cup, and he came up big when it counted in the 1996 World Cup which he led in goals and points. Given the quality of the competition he faced, I'd rank those two performances above Firsov's best international performances.

And Brett Hull has some pretty good longevity too...

Brett Hull is going high on my ballot.

It's extremely mind boggling that anyone would have Hull off of their list and Firsov as a lock this round.

That spike of Firsov's from 65-68 sure looks impressive but then again so does Tony Hand's stats, that's why context is needed.

And what about Erich Kühnhackl who did extremely well, with much less team support

Erich Kühnhackl - Wikipedia

Not that I'm promoting the big guy as a top 100 player of all time but surely when you look past the team support that both he and firsov had he might have a claim as well right?

 

[Batis]

Regarding the questions about Firsovs weight it is worth noting that he was a freak of nature when it comes to training and this is what Tarasov and the weighlifting champion Yuri Vlasov had to say about it.

* Tarasov: "Nobody trained like Firsov. Not even Kharlamov, who often stayed after practices to train some more. But nobody -- nobody! -- trained like Firsov. When Yuri Vlasov, the weightlifting champion, saw what Firsov does with the weights, he walked up to him and asked: "Are you alive?""

 

[DannyGallivan]

Is Valery Kharlamov proven enough for you? If yes then you agree with me that a player doesn't necessarily have to prove himself in the NHL.

I ranked him based - on a large part - with conjecture. I had little choice. Same with any and all non-NHLers. There is sizeable circumstantial evidence, and a lot of "what if's". Yes he was great. How would he do with a 15 season NHL career? Art Ross? Hart? 10 top-ten scoring finishes? Or would he be around the level of Gilbert Perreault (who was one of Canada's best players in international play)... a highlight reel guy who was frequently among the best - but never among the very best.

 

[Canadiens1958]

So what did you mean then?

Benchmarks or minimum standards would help as opposed to the present vague generalities.

 

[VMBM]

It's extremely mind boggling that anyone would have Hull off of their list and Firsov as a lock this round.

That spike of Firsov's from 65-68 sure looks impressive but then again so does Tony Hand's stats, that's why context is needed.

 

[wetcoast]

Same as it ever was.....

 

[Canadiens1958]

And I questioned whether it really matters to you if Firsov played against NHL opposition or not - which you implied was your main problem with him - because it seems that only the players who played in the NHL (and succeeded) get your true seal of approval.



And there is no sign that it bothered him at all, when considering his performances at the 1970 and 1971 WHCs, for example.

Veli-Pekka Ketola, who later went on to play in the WHA and NHL, called Firsov "tough", which he considered rare among the Soviet players, or at least forwards. He also compared Firsov and Kharlamov, and favoured Firsov, also physically (even though Kharlamov was somewhat heavier, apparently).



Yes, hypothetical, just like much of the conversation (including your posts) on THOH - it is what it is. However, a certain Scotty Bowman, who - as you've kindly pointed out - coached a team against Firsov, was clearly impressed by him, and thus totally contradicting your statement that Firsov "did not impress" in the games that the Soviets played in Canada.

As for Tumba and Sterner, why should they even be very close to Firsov (if that's your argument)? Sterner's career was quite uneven compared to Firsov's, only rarely matching his offensive numbers, not to mention his accolades, and missing Firsov's versatility. Also the Soviets were clearly ahead of Sweden in the mid/late-1960s and early 1970s, so it would be quite natural that the best Soviet player (unquestionably) was better than the best Swedish player (not even unquestionably that).
Also Tumba can only match Firsov in terms of goal-scoring, not much else. And if you have a problem with Firsov's opposition, what about Tumba's opposition (played internationally until 1966)?!

You are conflating two distinct concepts. Playing against NHL players and playing in the NHL. The second entails playing by NHL rules while the first does not.

Prime example, Seth Martin, playing both, impressed more Internationally than in the NHL.

Please provide links and sources for your statements attributed to Ketola and Bowman.

 

[Theokritos]

Same as it ever was.....

Disagreeing that Firsov should rank here is one thing. Putting him in the same breath as Tony Hand another.

 

[Theokritos]

Please provide links and sources for your statements attributed to Ketola and Bowman.

Bowman: Source and link provided upthread in post #50.

Ketola: The source was provided here:

A very special thank you to VMBM, who graciously offered his help into traducing these quotes.

These quotes comes from the book: ''Vellu Ketola - Ässien Ässä'', an 1979 authorized biography by Jyrki Laelma

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

If you like big spiky peaks, consider that Brett Hull was a Hart finalist from 1989-90 through 1991-92, and won the Hart in 1991 with an 86-goal, 131-point campaign. When you can lead the league in goal-scoring on your ES goals alone, you aren't dependent on the PP.

I could deal with Br. Hull's St Louis Peak-Prime a little more readily if it wasn't often accompanied by (in the context of the legends under consideration here) embarrassment-level Plus-Minus readings. And wasn't he a great Captain for St Louis, too?

Does anyone here think Brett Hull was Best Player in the League the year he won the Hart? Hell, if you want to get semantical about it, does anyone here think he was Most Valuable to His Team?!

Normally, I very much prefer posting enthusiastically about the players I admire most- really, I do. But I believe Brett Hull is such a misfit in this company that I couldn't let it go unremarked.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Normally, I very much prefer posting enthusiastically about the players I admire most- really, I do. But I believe Brett Hull is such a misfit in this company that I couldn't let it go unremarked.

I think his name came up at about the right time for a guy with his incredible scoring exploits. He couldn't carry the puck like his dad, and maybe he benefited more from a great set-up guy than the other way around, but production never, ever lies. He makes my cut this round. For the record, I couldn't stand him when he played (his smugness, and wearing a different flag rubbed me the wrong way at the time), but I can't deny his prowess.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Post #50. Bowman talks in generalities "excellent" player mentioning Firsov's passing skills BUT Bowman does not praise Firsov in the same fashion after coaching against his team in 1965.

Dubious interpretation and use of Bowman's 2010 quote.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Brett Hull, for all his faults, must be given credit for successfully integrating championship teams coached by notoriously defensive and demanding coaches like Ken Hitchcock and Scotty Bowman at the tail end of his career.

If this never happened from lack of opportunity, no one would believe he could have done it, and anyone arguing for it would be laughed out of the thread.Brett Hull and Ken Hitchcock or Scotty Bowman doesn't exactly sound like a match made in heaven.

I'm not saying he should make it now, but that's a huge point in his favor.

so true