Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (The Sequel)

[ted2019]

1. Wayne Gretzky
10. Jean Beliveau
20. Red Kelly
30. Sergei Makarov
40.Frank Nighbor
50. Pierre Pilote

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Re: save pct.

Just because a team gives us shots doesn't mean it is bad defensively.

But to explore arena bias, could we do a home/away split of Bower's save pct to help?

Probably best saved for round 2, but I would like to see this too. As of now, I don't give any consideration whatsoever to the reconstructed save percentages for Johnny Bower. Because I don't believe that the 60s dynasty Leafs had the worst defense in the league.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Players from past eras always have the mythology on their side. Contemporary players often not so much.

Trottier I think is a good example of this. He is astronomically great because he just is and that's that. It's just one of those things you learn at a young age.

But maybe he should be ahead of Malkin based on all of those intangibles in his game. Nevertheless maybe Malkin deserves more credit than he gets because his resume - regular season, playoffs, internationally - is also great and looks, at least to the naked eye, to be right there with Trottier's.

There are a number of posters here that don't have to mythologize Trottier. We saw him throughout his career.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Re: save pct.

Just because a team gives us shots doesn't mean it is bad defensively.

But to explore arena bias, could we do a home/away split of Bower's save pct to help?

SOGs.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Red Kelly was the clear cut #2 player on the 1950s Red Wings

Top 5 Hart finishes Red Wings in the 1950s:

Gordie Howe: 1st (1952), 1st (1953), 1st (1957), 1st (1958), 2nd (1959), 3rd (1951), 4th (1954),
Red Kelly: 2nd (1954), 3rd (1951), 3rd (1953), 4th (1956)
Terry Sawchuk: 4th (1952), 4th (1959), 4th (1957 with Boston)
Ted Lindsay: none (but 4th in 1949)

The only defensemen to finish top 5 in Hart votes for most of the Original 6 era were Harvey and Kelly

1945-46 5) Jack Stewart
1946-47 none
1947-48 none
1948-49 none
1949-50 none
1950-51 3) Red Kelly
1951-52 none
1952-53 3) Red Kelly
1953-54 2) Red Kelly
1954-55 5) Doug Harvey
1955-56 4) Red Kelly 5) Doug Harvey
1956-57 5) Doug Harvey
1957-58 3) Doug Harvey
1958-59 none
1959-60 none
1960-61 none
1961-62 2) Doug Harvey
1962-63 none
1963-64 none
1964-65 none
1965-66 none
1966-67 5) Harry Howell

Kelly was likely the best player in the world for the season of 1953-54, right in the middle of Gordie Howe and Maurice Richard's prime.

• Kelly finished a close 2nd in Hart voting to an Al Rollins (a goalie), and many people think that Rollins was being given credit for his previous season (when he lost the Hart to Gordie Howe the year Howe shattered all the records).
• Kelly was voted the best player of the year in a press poll. (At the time, the Hart Trophy really did seem to go to "most valuable," not best player).
• Note that Maurice Richard and Gordie Howe were both in their primes and finished 3rd and 4th in Hart voting respectively.

Contemporary reports that Kelly was in discussion for the best player in the world in the mid 1950s

Neither. I'll take Red Kelly.

Kelly is the best all-around performer in our league. Sure, Howe and Richard are great , but Red is not only great on defense , he can score too. He's the big reason Detroit has won five straight (regular season) championships.

When Kelly rushes up ice, it's something to see. He sparks Howe and Lindsay and the others. When we play the Wings, we go out to stop him.We feel there's a better chance of winning that way.

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix - Google News Archive Search

Even taking into account the continued greatness of Richard, Gordon Howe and Red Kelly, Beliveau is doubtless the finest all-round player in the game today and is beginning to emerge as a performer who can do more things and do them better than any other center in the full history of hockey.

Here's a more detailed profile of Red Kelly that I made: https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/atd-2014-the-bios-thread.1587243/#post-78674837

 

[GlitchMarner]

I'd like to participate in this project, but my knowledge of non-NHL players admittedly sucks.

 

[Sentinel]

10. Sergei Makarov (RW)
20. Steve Yzerman (С)
30. Red Kelly (D / LW)
40. Ted Lindsay (LW)
50. Brett Hull (RW)

 

[GlitchMarner]

C1958 raised the question of Francis, D. Gilmour, Modano and Sundin in the last thread. How do you rank them?

I love Sundin, but I doubt I'd include him on a top 100 hockey players list... at least if International hockey isn't considered. His prime is awesome in terms of length and consistency (70+ points every season between his second and second last excluding '95), but he notably lacks a peak that stands out. Consequently, his high-end Hart voting record isn't very impressive. I'm an apologist for how he performed in the playoffs, but he was still nothing amazing there for a player of his stature. I think he's kind of underrated in terms of things like leadership and clutch factor, but he's no Mark Messier.

I'd rank Doug Gilmour higher because he has the high peak and playoff record Sundin lacks, but I find him a bit overrated on this section of the site (and he was a favorite of mine when I was young and I'm still a fan). I mean, he's 30th or so on the top centres list. Outside of three seasons that really stand out (his best two seasons in Toronto in particular are amazing), I don't think he is much better than a Rod Brind'Amour to be completely honest. I may put him on a top 100 list, though.

I'm a fan of the player Modano was from '97-'03 for sure, but like Sundin he lacks a defining and dominant peak. He doesn't have Sundin's longevity (in terms of quality), but he was a better player during his best six-seven season stretch than Sundin was over a sustained period. He has the advantage in the playoffs over Sundin as well. Sundin was better Internationally. I do consider Modano better than Sundin, but I put them in the same tier. If I was to include MM on a top 100 list, he would be near the bottom.

Ron Francis... hmmm... for a guy who accumulated so many career points, his Hartford years don't impress me too much. He goes to PIT and has some finishes in the top 10 in scoring and finishes in the top six in Selke voting a few times. Later on, he puts up 70+ points a couple of times with Carolina in the dead puck era. Good player, but his career totals aren't indicative of where he belongs on an all-time list. I'm inclined to think I would include him on a top 100 list. Francis was leading Gilmour comfortably in a poll I made recently when I last checked the results FWIW.



I'd put all of these guys ahead of Henrik Sedin, Pierre Turgeon, Pat LaFontaine and Jeremy Roenick (part of the next-best wave of centres) and behind Fedorov, Thornton and Dionne. They're somewhere in the mix with guys like Ratelle, Savard, Hawerchuk, Perreault, Oates.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Based on reputation (as I perceive it anyway), I figured Perreault was decidedly better than players like Modano, Sundin, Thornton, Hawerchuk etc, but when you actually look at his profile, it's tough to figure out what makes him that much (if any) better than these players. I made a Stastny/Perreault poll and the results were almost evenly split when I last checked - who do you people consider better between the two?

 

[GlitchMarner]

Who's going to include a current centre other than Crosby, Malkin and Thornton? Will anyone include any of Toews, Kopitar, Stamkos, Getzlaf, Bergeron etc?

 

[Theokritos]

I love Sundin, but I doubt I'd include him on a top 100 hockey players list... at least if International hockey isn't considered.

For the record, everything a player did in senior hockey is to be considered, including international hockey.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Lindros > McDavid. And I don't even know if I'll have Lindros on my list.

Connor lacks longevity and as great as his start has been, his peak isn't good enough to get him on a top 100 list.

He is going to shoot up the ranks rapidly, though.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Who's going to include a current centre other than Crosby, Malkin and Thornton? Will anyone include any of Toews, Kopitar, Stamkos, Getzlaf, Bergeron etc?

Datsyuk is a modern guy who I’d have ranked above the bolded

 

[Canadiens1958]

Probably best saved for round 2, but I would like to see this too. As of now, I don't give any consideration whatsoever to the reconstructed save percentages for Johnny Bower. Because I don't believe that the 60s dynasty Leafs had the worst defense in the league.

Regardless, SOGs especially on the road often are a function of who scores first.

NHL.com - Stats

Leafs with Bower scored first more often.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I don't know why people insist on trying to find era or nationality bias in other people.It's NOT hard to consider all eras.

seriously. and why is it that the posters who are most likely to accuse posters who have a different opinion than them of being biased are also usually the posters who post solely and incessantly about a single player, team, era, or country?

 

[VMBM]

Martinec and Holecek will definitely be somewhere on my list. The more I read about Martinec's all-round play, the more I think that I would flip him and Maltsev from where they are on the HOH Top Euros list.

At least I hope that Martinec will be discussed, i.e. will show up as a candidate, at some point during this project (I would think so?). He shouldn't be much harder to rank than his Soviet contemporaries, actually; yes, he played less games vs the best Canadians than the Soviet players, but did he ever show some weaknesses when he did play against them? The 1972 post-Summit exhibition game (his line with B. Stastny and Farda was arguably CSSR's best in the game), Canada Cup 1976 (1 ppg in those 3 games), Tesla Pardubice vs NHL teams (I think he had 1 ppg there too... IIRC, Theokritos once provided the stats).

The only knock on him might be his less than absolutely brilliant (but still good) domestic scoring and suspects about his conditioning (the two things might have been related). However, like with Kharlamov, his domestic and international accolades and international scoring (specially compared to his teammates) should more than make up for that imo.

Firsov should be ranked close to Kharlamov and above Tretiak IMO. The HOH Top Euros project got this one right. Again, we underrated Firsov's all-round game in the past.

Most definitely. Unless someone wants to overly punish Firsov for not having played against Canada's best... which is a bit short-sighted in my opinion.

 

[Sentinel]

Who's going to include a current centre other than Crosby, Malkin and Thornton? Will anyone include any of Toews, Kopitar, Stamkos, Getzlaf, Bergeron etc?

I have Toews outside looking in at 117. The rest don't cut it. In fact, I don't even have Thornton. A questionable decision, perhaps, but we just had this Toews vs. Thornton conversation, and many seem to agree that numbers aren't everything. In a clutch situation, gimme prime Toews 9 times out of 10.

Francis is in a similar situation, ranked at 106. Somehow he was missing that *it* factor.

 

[Sentinel]

1. Wayne Gretzky
10. Jean Beliveau
20. Red Kelly
30. Sergei Makarov
40.Frank Nighbor
50. Pierre Pilote

Makarov too low IMO.

I am curious about your 6-10. Usually people place Beliveau higher.

 

[Canadiens1958]

The recently released NHL archival data features a stat package that depending on the stat goes back to the 1933-34 NHL season. Possible to filter by Regular Season and Playoffs by position and various other objectives.

Will look at the +/- data which is available from 1959-60 to date.The important parts about appreciating the data will be discussed briefly as we progress briefly over the next few weeks. Most important feature is that the +/- data is not presented as a raw global number, rather it is presented as a sum of home and away numbers. This reflects offensive and defensive strategies and execution as well as home ice advantage making line changes. You also get relevent team data.

For project purposes look at the top fifty(first page) for position rankings. Players that were in the NHL before the 1959-60 season should be viewed as incomplete.

A different picture emerges about many players, especially which ones were liabilities on the road, the actual motors on the team, the cornerstones. When decline started and the circumstances.

Questions encouraged.

Overview

Regular Season Blended

NHL.com - Stats

Playoffs Blended

NHL.com - Stats

By Position

Centers Regular Season

NHL.com - Stats

Centers Playoffs

NHL.com - Stats

LW Regular Season

NHL.com - Stats

LW Playoffs

NHL.com - Stats

RW Regular Season

NHL.com - Stats


RW Playoffs

NHL.com - Stats

Defencemen Regular Season

NHL.com - Stats

Defencemen Playoffs

NHL.com - Stats

 

[Canadiens1958]

At least I hope that Martinec will be discussed, i.e. will show up as a candidate, at some point during this project (I would think so?). He shouldn't be much harder to rank than his Soviet contemporaries, actually; yes, he played less games vs the best Canadians than the Soviet players, but did he ever show some weaknesses when he did play against them? The 1972 post-Summit exhibition game (his line with B. Stastny and Farda was arguably CSSR's best in the game), Canada Cup 1976 (1 ppg in those 3 games), Tesla Pardubice vs NHL teams (I think he had 1 ppg there too... IIRC, Theokritos once provided the stats).

The only knock on him might be his less than absolutely brilliant (but still good) domestic scoring and suspects about his conditioning (the two things might have been related). However, like with Kharlamov, his domestic and international accolades and international scoring (specially compared to his teammates) should more than make up for that imo.



Most definitely. Unless someone wants to overly punish Firsov for not having played against Canada's best... which is a bit short-sighted in my opinion.

This is definitely food for thought, especially when added to the buffet served recently by DN28.

With all examinations, possibilities exist that the results may be less than favourable if the ingredients are out of balance.

 

[bobholly39]

10. Sergei Makarov (RW)
20. Steve Yzerman (С)
30. Red Kelly (D / LW)
40. Ted Lindsay (LW)
50. Brett Hull (RW)

Man Yzerman at 20 seems crazy high....to me he's closer to 20th center than 20th player overall.

To be fair i'm still working on my list so i don't have a slot for him yet to compare, but it just seems high

Did you end up slotting Makarov above Jagr? I remember you seemed 50/50 on it in the past.

 

[bobholly39]

Connor lacks longevity and as great as his start has been, his peak isn't good enough to get him on a top 100 list.

He is going to shoot up the ranks rapidly, though.

I agree that with a better peak i'd be be more tempted to try to find a play for McDavid.

His peak is very meh so far. Crosby has done better, Malkin, Kane, Messier, Mikita and so many others. I think he's able to, and on the verge of breaking out. If in one of his 2 art ross seasons he had done something crazy like a 120-125 point season - I think he'd warrant more consideration based on peak.

As per your other post - peak Lindros > Peak McDavid so far too. How can he surpass him career-wise if his peak isn't quite there yet?

Imo there's no chance McDavid gets close to my list (but to be fair im not done yet).

If this had been Gretzky and we'd be judging him 3 years into his career - that would be a difficult choice. Don't think McDavid quite does it though.

 

[The Panther]

I won't be voting as I simply can't 'rank' 120 players -- most of whom I've never seen play! (I'm not sure I've paid close attention to 120 total players in my 32-ish years of watching the NHL.)

Not that I care either way, but I'll say that if you're going to 120, I do think Mr. McDavid should be in there. Sure, he'll be on the lower end somewhere, but two Art Rosses in a row (including one on a downright bad team) is pretty darn impressive, given that nobody's done that for 17 years and the Oilers are a quite good team when he's on the ice, and a disastrous one when he's not.

Of course, the revelation of Roy McGiffin being in the fruit business during the off-season changes everything...

 

[steve141]

How is everyone on Morenz vs Crosby? I've never been a fan of Crosby but to my surprise I think his career holds up pretty well to Morenz's.

 

[MXD]

I agree that with a better peak i'd be be more tempted to try to find a play for McDavid.

His peak is very meh so far. Crosby has done better, Malkin, Kane, Messier, Mikita and so many others. I think he's able to, and on the verge of breaking out. If in one of his 2 art ross seasons he had done something crazy like a 120-125 point season - I think he'd warrant more consideration based on peak.

Okay... Can somebody explain to me what this post is about? It seems that pretty much EVERYTHING that could possibly be wrong is actually wrong.

We're talking about a player who won two straight Art Ross, who would've won two straight Hart if it weren't for that "No Playoff" stipulation. McDavid won the Art Ross with bigger gaps than Crosby ever did (and in a lower scoring environment to boot!) and against possibly even better competition than Crosby (because said competition includes Crosby!). Malkin? !?!? Kane?!?! MESSIER who probably should've lost his Hart to a D-MEN if everyone had been honest amongst voters....? I can concede for Mikita, but the others, sorry, I don't get it.

(Oh and I'd like the intake of somebody else than the person I'm quoting...)