Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (The Sequel)

[Canadiens1958]

Initial effort:

6.) Mario Lemieux
16.) Denis Potvin
26.) Nicklas Lidstrom
36.) Ted Kennedy
46.) Frank Boucher
56.) Chris Pronger
66.) Turk Broda
76.) Sweeney Schriner
86.) Hap Holmes
96.) Martin St.Louis
106.) Busher Jackson
116,) Nikolai Sologubov

 

[Captain Bowie]

Lemieux at 6. That's a new one.

Also, Schriner did not make my 120, Holmes and Sologubov weren't even in consideration.

 

[ResilientBeast]

If Holmes is on your list Hugh Lehman must've made it right?

 

[Staniowski]

Initial effort:

6.) Mario Lemieux
16.) Denis Potvin
26.) Nicklas Lidstrom
36.) Ted Kennedy
46.) Frank Boucher
56.) Chris Pronger
66.) Turk Broda
76.) Sweeney Schriner
86.) Hap Holmes
96.) Martin St.Louis
106.) Busher Jackson
116,) Nikolai Sologubov

Nice to see somebody willing to rank one of The Big Four outside of the top four. Diversity of thought is good.

Do you remember seeing Teeder play?

 

[MXD]

Initial effort:

6.) Mario Lemieux
16.) Denis Potvin
26.) Nicklas Lidstrom
36.) Ted Kennedy
46.) Frank Boucher
56.) Chris Pronger
66.) Turk Broda
76.) Sweeney Schriner
86.) Hap Holmes
96.) Martin St.Louis
106.) Busher Jackson
116,) Nikolai Sologubov

Wow, I kept going "WTF" "Great" "WTF" "Great".

I'm still not sure whether the biggest headscratcher is Sweeney Schriner on the list in the first place or Sweeney Schriner 30 ranks ahead of Busher Jackson.

And I like Turk Broda as much as anyone here, and I can't really see him miss the cut, and I'll probably have pretty much around where you did... But I'm not even certain he'd make a potential Top-200 if we were to disregard playoffs altogether.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Wow, I kept going "WTF" "Great" "WTF" "Great".

I'm still not sure whether the biggest headscratcher is Sweeney Schriner on the list in the first place or Sweeney Schriner 30 ranks ahead of Busher Jackson.

And I like Turk Broda as much as anyone here, and I can't really see him miss the cut, and I'll probably have pretty much around where you did... But I'm not even certain he'd make a potential Top-200 if we were to disregard playoffs altogether.

Past lists Broda was#59 and #60, #13 goalies Dropped him in part to archival data .

Lemieux was #11 on the playoff list. Archival data not Lemieux friendly.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Nice to see somebody willing to rank somebody from The Big Four outside of the top four. Diversity of thought is good.

Do you remember seeing Teeder play?

Vaguely.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Finished my 120, first draft anyways. Here's how they break down based on the groups I broke them down into.

Modern Forwards: 16
Gretzky-Era Forwards: 13
Original 6 Era Forwards: 18
Pre-War Forwards: 17
Total Forwards: 64

Modern Defencemen (post-expansion): 18
Original 6 Defencemen: 8
Pre-War Defencemen: 7
Total Defencemen: 33

Goalies: 18

Euro Skaters: 5

 

[Nick Hansen]

Wonder how many participants there will be. Judging from the first thread there's a LOT of people looking to participate, which would be great. The larger the sample the better the results.

Spoiler alert - Gretzky will be ranked #1.

Don't worry, I'm not gonna submit a list though I am somewhat participant in the discussion.

Partly because of lack of time (2nd year at uni coming up right about now), partly because I don't feel nearly knowledgeable enough.

 

[The Macho King]

Finished my 120, first draft anyways. Here's how they break down based on the groups I broke them down into.

Modern Forwards: 16
Gretzky-Era Forwards: 13
Original 6 Era Forwards: 18
Pre-War Forwards: 17
Total Forwards: 64

Modern Defencemen (post-expansion): 18
Original 6 Defencemen: 8
Pre-War Defencemen: 7
Total Defencemen: 33

Goalies: 18

Euros: 7

That's 122, so something is amiss. Oh well, that's why it's a first draft.

Any euro goalies? Tretiak I'm assuming?

 

[Nick Hansen]

Initial effort:

6.) Mario Lemieux
16.) Denis Potvin
26.) Nicklas Lidstrom
36.) Ted Kennedy
46.) Frank Boucher
56.) Chris Pronger
66.) Turk Broda
76.) Sweeney Schriner
86.) Hap Holmes
96.) Martin St.Louis
106.) Busher Jackson
116,) Nikolai Sologubov

I am surprised you'd have Pronger that high. He must be atleast a top 15 defenseman all time in your eyes, then?

 

[Captain Bowie]

Any euro goalies? Tretiak I'm assuming?

Yes, 2. That would explain the extra 2 lol.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I am surprised you'd have Pronger that high. He must be atleast a top 15 defenseman all time in your eyes, then?

I have him higher. #45ish, somewhere between contemporaries Forsberg and Selanne. Top-15 positionally (south of Chelios, next to Cleghorn). Much bigger presence than his trophy case. Injured a lot, but there might have been 5 or 6 summers where I came away thinking he’s a top-3 skater at any position. A proven X-factor.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Finally got back from vacation and worked myself through the first thread. A few comments:

Lindros > McDavid. And I don't even know if I'll have Lindros on my list.

There was a discussion as to whether centers or defensemen drove the play more. Only thing I have to add - the story that Bobby Orr was originally a forward who was converted to defenseman so he could play more minutes and have more effect on the game. Of course, extrapolating from Bobby Orr to lesser players might not be possible.

First half of career Stevens was better than Chara ever was offensively, while second half of career Stevens was better in the playoffs. Chara's advantage would be that he was just consistently... Chara... for so long.

Tretiak sure racked up nods for the Soviet Player of the Year. Could it partially be that he stood out as easily the best Soviet goaltender, because historically the Soviets and Russians have always been bad at producing goalies, compared to other countries like Czechoslovakia? Once you increase the competition level to include the rest of Europe, he didn't do so well in awards that included all Europeans.

Let's not get too enthusiastic about Johnny Bower's save percentages. Let's remember that the stat wasn't officially recorded during his career, and that even in modern days when it has been an official stat, the definition of a "save" varies greatly from arena to arena. In other words, I just don't believe that the 60s Leafs had the worst defense in the NHL. If anyone actually believes that, then reconsider the defensive reputation of guys like Tim Horton and Dave Keon.

IMO, the only pre-1905 players even worth considering are those with the possible claim to best player in the world during that relatively weak era. That would be Russell Bowie, Tommy Phillips, Hod Stuart, and Frank McGee. And in terms of longevity as a top player, it's clearly Bowie first and McGee last.

Martinec and Holecek will definitely be somewhere on my list. The more I read about Martinec's all-round play, the more I think that I would flip him and Maltsev from where they are on the HOH Top Euros list.

Firsov should be ranked close to Kharlamov and above Tretiak IMO. The HOH Top Euros project got this one right. Again, we underrated Firsov's all-round game in the past.

NHA/pre-consolidation NHL/PCHA era defensemen - Sprague Cleghorn first (lock for top 100), Eddie Gerard second (possible top 100). Then probably Moose Johnson 3rd. Anyone disagree?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Agreed, that and 102. But I've committed to my top ten so nothing will change it.

I have Ullman at 102.

 

[Fantomas]

Why do people rank Trottier higher than Malkin? Not judging, just asking.

 

[BenchBrawl]

If we take a bird view, and make a chronological map of who was "the best defenseman in the world overall" in any relatively long window, like we sometimes do for "best overall player in the world", so not a year to year ranking, IMO Chris Pronger was the best defenseman from 2003-2004 to 2009-2010, so between age 29 and 35.

His Norris record in that window is: 3, 3, 5, 7, 8

Lidstrom's Norris record in that timeframe is: 1, 1, 1, 3, 4, 6

And Lidstrom's Hart record is much better than Pronger's.Everything on paper indicates Lidstrom was better.But I don't buy it at all.Pronger was the superior force out there, and the one you wanted on your side in priority.

That window includes Pronger's three spectacular runs, but it also includes three deep runs for Lidstrom.

Despite all of this, I still think Pronger was the top defenseman in the world.

Coincidentally, I think Lidstrom was the best defenseman in the world roughly from age 28/29 to 33/34, about the same as Pronger (and many other defensemen who peaked in their early 30s).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Re: 50s Habs. I tend to have Beliveau and Richard both a little bit above Harvey. While Harvey seems to have been more important to the 50s dynasty, I just can't get over how much more Richard did before the dynasty and how much more Beliveau did after it.

Henri Richard should be a lock on the list even if he never played a single game in the 1950s. Arguably the best even strength player in the entire NHL in the 1960s, and at least as important as Beliveau to the 1960s dynasty. I have him as a tier by himself among "50s" Canadiens, behind Beliveau, Richard, Harvey, and Plante, but comfortably ahead of Geoffrion and Moore.

If Henri is behind the likes of Trottier and Yzerman, it isn't by much.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Why do people rank Trottier higher than Malkin? Not judging, just asking.

Much better all-around player.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Why do people rank Trottier higher than Malkin? Not judging, just asking.

Overall game,complete career.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Much better all-around player.

Sure. Trottier posted a 1.34 ppg through his first ten years. Do you believe he could've beaten Malkin's current 1.19 in today's era? I have a hard time believing he'd beat prime/peak Ovechkin and Crosby either.

Malkin also arguably has the best playoff run of the 2000's.

 

[Fantomas]

All-around game I understand. But Trottier was also done as an elite player by the age of 28.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Finally got back from vacation and worked myself through the first thread. A few comments:

First half of career Stevens was better than Chara ever was offensively, while second half of career Stevens was better in the playoffs. Chara's advantage would be that he was just consistently... Chara... for so long.

NHA/pre-consolidation NHL/PCHA era defensemen - Sprague Cleghorn first (lock for top 100), Eddie Gerard second (possible top 100). Then probably Moose Johnson 3rd. Anyone disagree?

1) Stevens > Chara based on playoffs.Close value, but Stevens was more of a playoff hero, whereas Chara "got it done" unspectacularly.In extremis style.

2) Not sold that Moose Johnson was better than Georges Boucher or Harry Cameron.But it's not a strong skepticism, just a desire for a more throughout comparison.Cleghorn 1st and Gerard 2nd I agree with that.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Sure. Trottier posted a 1.34 ppg through his first ten years. Do you believe he could've beaten Malkin's current 1.19 in today's era? I have a hard time believing he'd beat prime/peak Ovechkin and Crosby either.

Malkin also arguably has the best playoff run of the 2000's.

I say all around player and you reply with a PPG stat?

Trottier was astronomically better defensively and physically than Malkin.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

3. Wayne Gretzky
13. Sergei Makarov
23. Phil Esposito
33. Dit Clapper
43. Ken Dryden
53. Chris Chelios
63. Cy Denneny
73. King Clancy
83. Mark Howe
93. Scott Stevens
103. Ron Francis
113. Vladimir Petrov