Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (The Sequel)

[Dennis Bonvie]

It's pretty much top half material (with some arguably Top Quarter -- Makarov and Hall -- as far as I'm concerned) ... Save Clapper.

I mean, the same post describes Earl Seibert as a "reject list if not in", a proposition to which I MIGHT actually agree to. As in -- one can argue that Seibert off the list would probably involve something like "not giving fair consideration to every era". I don't think Seibert is THAT good (and I have him knocking at the top-half of my list!!!) but I understand a potential argument. He's probably the worse Pre-WWII player for such a tag (or the best to NOT have it).

But Clapper? What the hell. He's basically Babe Siebert who went on play longer by virtue of DOB/WWII/Not dying. Which might, or not, be okay for our purposes. Worse players than Clapper (and Siebert) will be ranked, but there should be absolutely nothing wrong is lacking room for both.

And I say that as a guy who is really Pre-WWII friendly.

Only NHL player ever to be named an all-star at both forward and defense.

Only Bruin player ever to win 3 Stanley Cup with Boston.

First player to play 20 seasons in the NHL.

One of only nine players (and the first) to be inducted into the HHOF immediately, waiving the 3 year retirement period.

Should be on the list simply for his extraordinarily good looks and dapper ways.

 

[DN28]

Great stuff, @DN28

Interesting to see how close voting was for the World Championship All-Star Team was in 1987 and 1990 (the latter I had assumed based on Irbe’s accolade).

Given the assertion on his potential disinterest in the 1991 Canada Cup, I am curious: was there similar feelings that may explain the 1988 Olympics where he ranked 17th in save percentage in the tournament? I’ve seen highlights (that obviously aren’t going to be flattering to any goaltender - particularly that bouncing goal in the win over Finland), but was he rushed back into the tournament from injury too soon?

Again, I would avoid speculating about Hasek´s even potential disinterest in the CC 1991. There´s nothing that I know about that. My point was just that the Czechoslovak team as a whole, including Czechoslovak hockey association and general Czech hockey public, media and so on.. paid much lower attention, lower focus on that tournament than on your average World hockey championship today.

I actually don´t know anything substantial about Hasek´s Olympics 1988, though some injury is possible as it seems it was his by far worst pre-NHL tournament.

EDIT: WHC 1987, Sweden upset the Soviets, winning the gold medal. Lindmark definitely deserved some credit for it.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Again, I would avoid speculating about Hasek´s even potential disinterest in the CC 1991. There´s nothing that I know about that. My point was just that the Czechoslovak team as a whole, including Czechoslovak hockey association and general Czech hockey public, media and so on.. paid much lower attention, lower focus on that tournament than on your average World hockey championship today.

I actually don´t know anything substantial about Hasek´s Olympics 1988, though some injury is possible as it seems it was his by far worst pre-NHL tournament.

EDIT: WHC 1987, Sweden upset the Soviets, winning the gold medal. Lindmark definitely deserved some credit for it.

Thank you very much for the league schedule link.

Will have an analysis by the weekend.

 

[MXD]

Only NHL player ever to be named an all-star at both forward and defense.

Only Bruin player ever to win 3 Stanley Cup with Boston.

First player to play 20 seasons in the NHL.

One of only nine players (and the first) to be inducted into the HHOF immediately, waiving the 3 year retirement period.

Should be on the list simply for his extraordinarily good looks and dapper ways.

- Also conveniently started his career right at the moment the AST's were named/created, meaning Siebert wasn't named on the AST's when he would've been deserving. Besides, that's not even true, since Neil Colville achieved the same.
- Totally irrelevant : Team award tied to team's ineptitude to win important games... And Clapper was with them nearly all that time!!!
- Barely relevant.
- Kinda relevant.

Look, I'm not saying he shouldn't make it. But his case is definitely closer to Babe Siebert than to
Earl Seibert.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

I can't believe I read the whole thing... (including the predecessor thread!)

Well- there were a few 'TLDR' posts... but I think I got 90+% of it.

Foremost thought in my mind- there are 267 male players in the Hockey Hall-of-Fame. (If my thumbnail internet search is correct.) Of that number, I'm sure that many of the assembled here can find a couple score (i.e.: 40-plus) players who, well... don't really want to say "don't deserve to be in." Maybe it would be more generous to say "can consider themselves lucky that they're in."

From there, a lot of folk here could think of a dozen and change who aren't there, but deserve to be enshrined. Add to this a fair number of currently active players (or, in at least one prominent instance, recently inactivated) who are clearly Hall-of-Fame bound, at whatever level they sort out. [I've previously toyed with a 3-tier system: obvious/main-line/lower third.]

What does this mean for this project? It means that if we can (collectively) visualize a median Hall-of-Famer-- someone who has as many H-o-Fers below him as above him, then that would be someone who misses the cut for the purpose of this ranking.

There will be A LOT of inarguable Hall-of-Famers who won't make the grade.

When agonizing over "leave-offs," this should be kept in mind.

 

[MXD]

(...)

What does this mean for this project? It means that if we can (collectively) visualize a median Hall-of-Famer-- someone who has as many H-o-Fers below him as above him, then that would be someone who misses the cut for the purpose of this ranking.
(...)

^^ Scott Niedermayer ^^ ?

 

[Captain Bowie]

I did have one player on my research list that is not in the Hall; Carl Brewer. And he wasn't terribly far from being in the top 120. Anyone have a good understanding of why he never made the hall? Solid AS record, decent Norris consideration, won 3 cups. Guess his career was just too short, only 600 games.

Appears to have made a comeback a couple times. Missed a 5 year gap from 65-70. Played a few years, then seemingly retird at 33. Played a season for the Toros in the WHA at 35. Then took 6 years off, and attempted another comeback at the age of 41! But only played 20 games for the Leafs in 79/80.

EDIT: Found this old post by everyone's favorite HF hockey historian: https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/carl-brewer-hockey-hall-of-fame.810862/

 

[MXD]

I did have one player on my research list that is not in the Hall; Carl Brewer. And he wasn't terribly far from being in the top 120. Anyone have a good understanding of why he never made the hall? Solid AS record, decent Norris consideration, won 3 cups. Guess his career was just too short, only 600 games.

Appears to have made a comeback a couple times. Missed a 5 year gap from 65-70. Played a few years, then seemingly retird at 33. Played a season for the Toros in the WHA at 35. Then took 6 years off, and attempted another comeback at the age of 41! But only played 20 games for the Leafs in 79/80.

EDIT: Found this old post by everyone's favorite HF hockey historian: https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/carl-brewer-hockey-hall-of-fame.810862/

Also not super-well liked by establishement from what I gather.

 

[ted2019]

- Also conveniently started his career right at the moment the AST's were named/created, meaning Siebert wasn't named on the AST's when he would've been deserving. Besides, that's not even true, since Neil Colville achieved the same.
- Totally irrelevant : Team award tied to team's ineptitude to win important games... And Clapper was with them nearly all that time!!!
- Barely relevant.
- Kinda relevant.

Look, I'm not saying he shouldn't make it. But his case is definitely closer to Babe Siebert than to
Earl Seibert.

Interesting thoughts. I have Clapper in the 90's currently. Earl Siebert is someone who I've had a difficult time placing (been having a lot of those lately) He definitely deserves a spot on the list. No matter what talent level and era he played in, having 10 straight years as a #2 (sometimes 1st) team AS is impressive. Babe Siebert is interesting as numbers don't always determine a players worth. Babe was used as a swiss knife who's versatility would be helpful in ways that stats can't quantify. Colville for me, doesn't have a spot anywhere, unless it was a top 200 project.

 

[Captain Bowie]

For pre-war defence, I have Earl Seibert a tier ahead of the others, alongside Cleghorn. That AS record is hard to ignore.

Then I've got Goodfellow, Clancy, Clapper and Babe Siebert in the next tier, all fairly close together on the list. Earl is in the 70's range, the rest are all between 90 and 120.

Colville was next on that era list, but missed the cut.

 

[quoipourquoi]

New thread is up.